Spanish Missions

[deducer]

As I recall, there were 27 mission sites in Arizona. Only 3 of them had padres and became missions. The other 24 had a church, a house for the padre, and a storehouse full of grain, fulfilling the requirements to become a mission. They were called 'visitas' until a padre was assigned to them. And these indian rancharias remained visitas for decades waiting for their padre that never came. The only way 1 man (Father Kino) could cause all of that heavy work to be completed is if the indians wanted to do it. Seems to me the indians wanted to be converted.

In my opinion the biggest evil in New Spain was the encomienda system. That's what enslaved the native people. Jesuits didn't own encomiendas. They were opposed to the system. It was the rich colonists, political figures and military officers. They're the ones that owned encomiendas and stood to profit the most by preserving the system. I believe they started many vicious rumors about the Jesuits in an attempt to curtail their power.

If you're looking for evil Jesuits, look at the top, not the bottom were Father Kino came from. The bottom is where the Jesuit saints come from.

I will have to differ with you on both points.

Here are passages from The Letters of the Swiss Jesuit Missionary Philipp Segesser (1689-1762) where Segesser goes on a rant and slips up about how the missionaries actually interact with the Indians in an attempt to get them to come to mass:



And also what he and the other German missionaries really think of the Indians:



supported by a passage from another book, Early History of the Southwest through the Eyes of German-Speaking Jesuit Missionaries: A Transcultural Experience in the Eighteenth Century:



Was Kino any different? Who knows? I think he really tried to do what he thought was right, from an Eurocentric point of view. Was he oblivious to the fact that the Spanish Government used the Catholic Church as an instrument, a rationale for conquest and exploitation? Who knows.

On the second point- I think that it's actually the other way around- the Jesuits had an iron grip and monopoly on the trade system to the far frontier. Their system was by far the most efficient and industrious and that's where their real power lay.

From Conflicts in Colonial Sonora:



Again, my aim is not to smear or cast anyone or any institution in a bad light, but I will not shy away from calling a spade, a spade. I call it as I see it. I am a stickler for accuracy and honesty.

 

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[ink]

12 missions north of the Gila covers an area twice the size of Arizona.

12 missions north of the Gila covers an area twice the size of Arizona & that huge HEART is still unexplained ?? I forgot to mention the 3 smaller hearts leading to the huge heart.

 

[Terry Soloman]

...

 

[ORO18]

Are you referring to the missing Nuestra Senora mission s from kino?

 

[ORO18]

Arizona a portion of Mexico New Mexico Utah Colorado California and Nevada. That's how big it is!

 

[ink]

P.B.J. you have no idea where this site is located. There is 2 rivers that flow north/west & 2 rivers that flow southwest. bless

 

[PotBelly Jim]

P.B.J. you have no idea where this site is located. There is 2 rivers that flow north/west & 2 rivers that flow southwest. bless

You're right about that...I DON'T know where this site is located.

I have, however, known where the LDM was located since I was a kid...it has since been covered over and hidden from view:

View attachment 1638296

 

[ink]

just ask pearl heart oh i forgot she is dead

 

[PotBelly Jim]

I wonder who it was that first worked these mines? They were north of the Gila obviously (Chandler/San Tan area) and close to the Supes.
View attachment 1639737

 

[markmar]

I wonder who it was that first worked these mines? They were north of the Gila obviously (Chandler/San Tan area) and close to the Supes.
View attachment 1639737

The directions lead close to ex Pinal village . So , north of Gila river . Older Spanish mine was uncovered also in the Goldfield area .

 

[PotBelly Jim]

The directions lead close to ex Pinal village . So , north of Gila river . Older Spanish mine was uncovered also in the Goldfield area .

Hey Marius,

Whatever the truth really is, it would appear that we're missing some important history...there must have been a time that the Spanish or Mexicans were allowed by the local Indians to mine up there...this location is more believable to me than say Goldfield or Globe, as it's a little closer to allied villages, but apparently there was a bunch of mining going on in central AZ before the Americans got there...so who was it, and who covered up the mines? If it was the Pimas, why didn't they tell Walker about it like they did with the Vekol? Very puzzling.

 

[markmar]

Hey Marius,

Whatever the truth really is, it would appear that we're missing some important history...there must have been a time that the Spanish or Mexicans were allowed by the local Indians to mine up there...this location is more believable to me than say Goldfield or Globe, as it's a little closer to allied villages, but apparently there was a bunch of mining going on in central AZ before the Americans got there...so who was it, and who covered up the mines? If it was the Pimas, why didn't they tell Walker about it like they did with the Vekol? Very puzzling.

Yes , seems then how that part of the world was not the favorite place for the historians . History there began in the middle of 19th century . What we know before then , is a " selected " history which fits with the interests of the inhabitants who lived and prospered there .
Why Pimas didn't tell about the other ancient mines , I believe is about their beliefs and superstitions . They were not passed so relaxed the east/north side of the Gila river .

 

[motel6.5]

Was a mission named Xavier Del Bac ,founded by kino. No longer standing.

 

[deducer]

Hey Marius,

Whatever the truth really is, it would appear that we're missing some important history...there must have been a time that the Spanish or Mexicans were allowed by the local Indians to mine up there...this location is more believable to me than say Goldfield or Globe, as it's a little closer to allied villages, but apparently there was a bunch of mining going on in central AZ before the Americans got there...so who was it, and who covered up the mines? If it was the Pimas, why didn't they tell Walker about it like they did with the Vekol? Very puzzling.

My impression is that the natives at first were willing to show the "white men" where the yellow stuff was, but as the years went by and they learned the hard way what gold does to men, their position became reversed and revealing information like that then became cultural taboo.

Also don't think that the area was hostile all the time, at least not until the Apache made the Superstitions their stronghold.

I believe that the Spanish were way up there, farther, and much earlier than written records suggest- they were aggressive forayers into the new world, driven by vision of riches.

 

[gollum]

Was a mission named Xavier Del Bac ,founded by kino. No longer standing.

San Xavier Mission/ Tucson AZ

Mike

 

[Azquester]

San Xavier Mission/ Tucson AZ

Mike

All Kino founded was a Ramada and a wretched mud house at a different location from present day Bach closer to the Santa Cruz river. The present Mission was constructed after the expulsion of the Jesuit's by Franciscan Monk's. Kino made the foundation of the Ramada in an area unfit for stable or level construction. They had to move it further away from the original San Xavier Del Bach.

He wasn't much of a builder.

https://www.nps.gov/tuma/learn/historyculture/san-xavier-del-bac.htm

 

[PotBelly Jim]

All Kino founded was a Ramada and a wretched mud house at a different location from present day Bach closer to the Santa Cruz river. The present Mission was constructed after the expulsion of the Jesuit's by Franciscan Monk's. Kino made the foundation of the Ramada in an area unfit for stable or level construction. They had to move it further away from the original San Xavier Del Bach.

He wasn't much of a builder.

https://www.nps.gov/tuma/learn/historyculture/san-xavier-del-bac.htm

Si, Senor....

It didn't help that the Indians destroyed San Xavier in 1751 and then again in 1768...the one we see today was indeed rebuilt in 1797...from that time on, the local Indians protected it even after the new Mexican Gov't smacked-down the Franciscans and they left the mission in 1827, I think it was...

 

[Al D]

Any sources or information related to missions or visitas N or the Gila? I was hoping Ink might provide some direction as to where to look in the archives?

I suggest the book, “Before Rebellion, the letters of Jacobo Sedylmayer S.J.

according to this book, there was nothing like a mission or even a visitas north of the Gila in 1751

 

[PotBelly Jim]

I suggest the book, “Before Rebellion, the letters of Jacobo Sedylmayer S.J.

according to this book, there was nothing like a mission or even a visitas north of the Gila in 1751

About the only thing that would qualify were the short-lived Franciscan missions established in the "Moqui" villages...they did, after all, give the "San Francisco Peaks" their name...the Indians got sick of them and killed them off by 1680...used the destroyed missions to build kivas...

I have to wonder if the mines in the Goldfield/Supes region that people assumed were "Spanish" or "Mexican" due to prior workings, were in actuality the work of '49ers...lots of people were using the Gila trail, Kearney went through there, Carson, Walker, Swilling, lots of 49ers...everyone...the placers at Pinos Altos were being worked by 49ers in 1860...right in the middle of Apacheria...the Blackwater mines that were assumed to be "Aztec" were so close to the Gila, it makes sense that some guys could have been poking around there and found something, started digging it out the best they could with the tools they had, only to be wiped out by the Indians and the mine covered over...dead men tell no tales, whether they be Spanish, Mexican or 49ers...

 

[motel6.5]

For you lost mission
Hunters Santa isabel mission is a
A other interesting story.