Spain's Claim to Shipwrecks

[huntsman53]

Well Frank you are the one that suggested to form an association of shipwreck salvage businesses and file a federal lawsuit. I thought you knew something about how to start this. I told you earlier that a shipwreck salvage association has failed 5 or 6 times in the past. It will take a lot of money to sue the state. GME is attempting to do that for breech of contract.

Is there anyone else out there that can make a difference?

While I may know how to start this as you say, I don't have the resources or contacts to even attempt to do so. Surely within some of the Treasure Salvor/Shipwreck Salvage companies whether it be owners or stockholders, there must be some influential people that know other influential people that can get the ball rolling per see. A few people could start with sending out letters to every Treasure Salvor/Shipwreck Salvage company that seek or have sought exploration and/or recovery permits within any and all territorial waters of the States and the United States with the intent stated of forming an Association to fight corruption within any State that has an Exploration/Recovery Permit system/process and denies or voids them when a find is made. Then have them forward similar letters to all of their' stockholders and anyone with interests in your businesses (all suppliers of equipment and supplies you need to operate). The key is cooperation between all of the companies to fund and back the association and any Court proceedings. A memorandum of conduct, cooperation and intent should be signed by every member and if the Association succeeds to the point that the Treasury has a large surplus of funds, then per the memorandum (clearly stated within), a portion (say not to exceed more than 75% of the surplus because the Association will still need operating funds to remain viable) of the surplus funds will be used to fight any future lawsuits against or for any member companies.** Letters could also be sent to anyone with political and/or judicial influence (just not to a Judge that might hear the Court Cases) or personally lobby them for support. Hell, I would even send out some letters to Warren Buffett for advice, support and maybe even financial help. He is known to help certain folks or businesses that are in need.

** Many associations fail because some members develop or have the view that the Association was created to benefit a few members only and not them. Often it is the smaller or less successful companies that view the larger or more successful companies this way but not always. This is where you all must work together to insure that all members are treated and represented equally and fairly, otherwise the Association like the others, will fail.

While a Federal Lawsuit may be the route that many members will want to take, I still believe that getting a Congressional Hearing on the docket will likely be much cheaper, accomplish much more and will lead to the Federal Lawsuits once all claims have been established and you have won. In fact, if you win in a Congressional Hearing, you may not even have to file a Federal Lawsuit as the outcome of the Congressional Hearing may dictate/order that proceedings be filed by the U.S. Attorney General against the State of Florida and any other State if needed. I would also hope that they would decide to revisit all of the Laws, Treaties, Rules and Policies set down by any and all parties concerning Exploration and Salvage/Recovery off all sunken ships and especially those that have lain on or under the floors of the oceans for 200 or more years, that no attempts have been made in nearly the same amount of years by the original owner countries or companies to find and salvage the shipwrecks and declare most if not all as abandoned by their' original owners.


Frank

 

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[huntsman53]

Hmmmm... I think a fleet / flota of galleons made their way up various rivers to sink in Tennessee somewhere :P

Seems like they have sunk everywhere else on earth. heh

HA...HA...HA!! If that were the case, then TVA (the Tennessee Valley Authority) and TDEC (Tennessee Department of Environment & Conservation) would likely shut down any attempts at salvage/recovery with claims of them being in navigable waters, waters used for Hydro-Electric Power production and/or waterways used as resources for drinking water. TDEC has already used the latter to shutdown much of the Gold Prospecting in Tennessee and digging, metal detecting and relic/treasure retrieval are prohibited on all TVA controlled lands and waters with the exception of swimming areas. Fighting either one would likely be harder than fighting the State of Florida and it's Archies.


Frank

 

[aquanut]

HA...HA...HA!! If that were the case, then TVA (the Tennessee Valley Authority) and TDEC (Tennessee Department of Environment & Conservation) would likely shut down any attempts at salvage/recovery with claims of them being in navigable waters, waters used for Hydro-Electric Power production and/or waterways used as resources for drinking water. TDEC has already used the latter to shutdown much of the Gold Prospecting in Tennessee and digging, metal detecting and relic/treasure retrieval are prohibited on all TVA controlled lands and waters with the exception of swimming areas. Fighting either one would likely be harder than fighting the State of Florida and it's Archies.


Frank

How did they become so powerful Frank?

 

[huntsman53]

There is another option that could be taken of which may take years to see results but which could benefit Treasure Salvors/Shipwreck Salvage companies if it succeeds. By holding a Convention in Central or South America and if all of the aggrieved countries that were wronged by Spain in it's conquest for power, financial and religious gain were convinced to sue Spain in the World Court and in doing so, they get a ruling in the World Court that during Spain's conquest of Mexico, Central and South America and even the Southwest United States that they clearly committed Genocide. That all ill-gotten gains are now and forever forfeit to Spain and all treasures if will be returned to their' rightful owner countries. Then such action would likely void all treaties, laws, rules and policies set down by any government concerning exploration and recovery of cargo from treasure laden Spanish Galleons and likely remove the Military designation of any of Spain's ships that were carrying treasure back to Spain since they were doing so while committing the genocide. These rulings would likely open the door for Treasure Salvor/Shipwreck Salvage companies to enter into contracts with these aggrieved countries to recover their' treasures (Gold, Silver and Gems) and return these to the aggrieved countries for a percentage of the value of these recovered items, then the Treasure Salvor/Shipwreck Salvage businesses could truly benefit from such contracts. There would still need to be a permitting system for the exploration and recovery to keep companies from fighting over discoveries and which would likely have to be overseen by the Federal Government here and the governments of other countries where treasure laden Spanish Galleons lay in their' waters.

https://infogram.com/Was-the-Spanish-Conquest-Genocide


Frank

 

[huntsman53]

How did they become so powerful Frank?

Probably the Liberal Democrats!


Frank

 

[ARC]

So with everyone and anyone seeking to claim these shipwrecks...., can I throw my hat into the ring?

Why not... everyone else concerned has "thrown in" to the point they are now down to their skivvies.
You can start with your hat for now... heh

Bah ... Almost like playing "strip treasure hunter". :P

 

[huntsman53]

Why not... everyone else concerned has "thrown in" to the point they are now down to their skivvies.
You can start with your hat for now... heh

Bah ... Almost like playing "strip treasure hunter". :P

Yeah, they should re-write Ray Stevens' song "The Streak" with something like "Oh they call him the Streak, boogity boogity, diving naked even when treasure hunting seems so bleak, boogity boogity,". Oh well, that doesn't sound too great but I am sure that you treasure hunting skinny dippers get the point.


Frank

 

[seekerGH]

Yes, it all started with the "affair" Juno / Galga. Really Sea Hunt never knew if he found these two shipwrecks. He never officially declared that these ships were found.

That is very true, and in reality, it is unlikely that Sea Hunt actually did find the Juno and la Galga. While claiming unidentified, there were the stories to the press and otherwise that would lead a reasonable person to assume the identity of the sites. (for value or investors?) Sound familiar? While unsuccessful, this tactic still appears to be a common outline, no? Should the Juno and/or La Galga ever be located, it has already been determined what happens there.

Unfortunately, they decided to continue and appeal, setting case law from that adventure is now commonly used against treasure hunters, specifically, assertions on abandonment and sovereign rights.

I will have to give credit to Odyssey Marine, when the Court handed it to them, while they cried and bemoaned in the public forum, thankfully they did not appeal. Had they chosen to appeal, the ramifications of the case law that would have been generated would not have allowed us to even splash.

 

[ARC]

Yeah, they should re-write Ray Stevens' song "The Streak" with something like "Oh they call him the Streak, boogity boogity, diving naked even when treasure hunting seems so bleak, boogity boogity,". Oh well, that doesn't sound too great but I am sure that you treasure hunting skinny dippers get the point.


Frank

Confucius say : Man who skinny dips takes chance of feeding fish a worm. :P

 

[huntsman53]

Confucius say : Man who skinny dips takes chance of feeding fish a worm. :P

So in essence, you are saying that you could not gauge the size of a found cannon in case you lost your' measuring tape!!??


Frank

 

[ARC]

So in essence, you are saying that you could not gauge the size of a found cannon in case you lost your' measuring tape!!??


Frank

With that I will just add...

Barnacles suck. :P

 

[huntsman53]

Well Frank you are the one that suggested to form an association of shipwreck salvage businesses and file a federal lawsuit. I thought you knew something about how to start this. I told you earlier that a shipwreck salvage association has failed 5 or 6 times in the past. It will take a lot of money to sue the state. GME is attempting to do that for breech of contract.

Is there anyone else out there that can make a difference?

Pete,

I should of thought of these ideas of how to fight corruption and fraud in the State Government of Florida sooner and am sorry I did not! Why not expose some of this corruption to media outlets that have a sympathetic ear to the plight of Treasure Salvors and you can also contact the folks at the link below. They expose and help fight corruption worldwide.

https://www.transparency.org/topic/detail/politics_and_government


Frank

 

[Urban Legend]

The State of Florida ...along with all the archaeologists and enviromentalists ..should be thanking treasure salvors for finding and removing centuries of wood , metal,and other debris that has accumulated off our shores..all done at no charge to the state .
By removing these items from the seabed and reefs ...the ecosystems can thrive as they have in the past..
You don't see too many officials complaining about gouging the seabed when replenishing the beach sands..but blow a few holes with a mailbox and they line up on the beach...
I'm not sure what alls in the hypocrite oath they agree to when they get into office..but they become really proficient at it.

 

[aquanut]

We need the treasure boats to blow all that replenishment sand off the reefs so they can live once again. When I dove the holes that were blown by the treasure boats, that was the only area that sea grasses existed and other sea life congregated. The rest of the reefs were dead...

 

[seekerGH]

We need the treasure boats to blow all that replenishment sand off the reefs so they can live once again.

While admirable, isnt the area affected by the blower rather minimal, and where does the material blown off that area go?

When I dove the holes that were blown by the treasure boats, that was the only area that sea grasses existed and other sea life congregated. The rest of the reefs were dead

Seems more like it is blowing around the fines that do destroy reefs that have been encapsulated.

From my experience, it is these materials that the sea creatures attach to, not sand. Hence the success of the artificial reef programs.

 

[Urban Legend]

While admirable, isnt the area affected by the blower rather minimal, and where does the material blown off that area go?

Seems more like it is blowing around the fines that do destroy reefs that have been encapsulated.

From my experience, it is these materials that the sea creatures attach to, not sand. Hence the success of the artificial reef programs.

So...if the salvors changed from blowing the sand around to using a suction device and vacuuming it. and of course depositing it in a desirable location...would you be OK with their methods ?
From reading your posts it's plain to see that you're quite knowledgeable on shipwrecks and recovery methods ...and quite possibly a competent litigator..
Its a shame that your efforts are spent trying to impede shipwreck discovery and salvage operations...
Money drives both sides of this issue....gold fever is just as prevalent in the water as it is on dry land.

Laws are made for honest people ...not by honest people...

 

[huntsman53]

So...if the salvors changed from blowing the sand around to using a suction device and vacuuming it. and of course depositing it in a desirable location...would you be OK with their methods ?

Sorry to say that while more efficient in retrieving small items such as coins, jewelry and gems, this method has no fans on either side of the isle! Suction dredging would require filtering to catch the smaller items and then the sand and debris would have to enter another pump to be shot out well away from the ship or boat and away from the area where you are working and hopefully not onto any coral reef structures. Besides, this method would not only damage many of these smaller items but also hinder the archaeological recording of where they lay on the ocean's floor when retrieved. While blowers can and often move the smaller items, they are often insitu to where they have lain for hundreds of years.


Frank

 

[Urban Legend]

Even if the limitations of vacuuming the seabed were mandatory....I really don't think they'd soften their stance on treasure permits .
Improvements would come quickly to the design and functionality of the sand movers ...there's a lot of smart people in the treasure salvage industry..
By incorporating GPS and a few metal detectors in the suction head you could reduce the area you needed to dredge as well as documenting the recoveries...

 

[aquanut]

Even if the limitations of vacuuming the seabed were mandatory....I really don't think they'd soften their stance on treasure permits .
Improvements would come quickly to the design and functionality of the sand movers ...there's a lot of smart people in the treasure salvage industry..
By incorporating GPS and a few metal detectors in the suction head you could reduce the area you needed to dredge as well as documenting the recoveries...

If a wreck is all in one place, dredging may be considered. However many wrecks are in the dynamic and shallow surf zone and could possibly be spread over a mile or more. We can't dredge the entire friggin' ocean. The blower is not simply used to uncover the overburden but also to act as a tool in the search.

 

[huntsman53]

All this debating over blowers vs dredging brought up an idea. I know that running a fairly large dredge along with the other equipment (boat/ship engines, generators and/or anything else that uses fuel) would be more costly but their use could be beneficial. A Salvor crew could anchor a dredge down current and downwind up to 100 feet from an ongoing blower operation to remove overburden from a shipwreck site. By using a wide suction head on the dredge inflow, a lot of the sand and silt that is blown up by the blowers, can be suctioned away from the working/search site and then pumped via high pressure outlet jets down current and downwind well away from the working/search site. This would help in several ways. First, it would help remove the blown up sand and silt from the working/search site so that it doesn't accumulate close by in what might be other potential search areas and also would help clear the water more quickly and increase visibility for the divers searching for targets.


Frank