Spain's Claim to Shipwrecks

[aquanut]

been there, done that, got your a** kicked.

Contact your homey Greg Stemm. Professional Shipwreck Explorers Association (ProSEA)

See how that worked out for the business.


You know, seekerGH, I've been involved with this stuff for a long time. It's quite apparent that you neither empathize with us treasure hunters or even treasure hunt yourself. So exactly why do you continue to bash everyone that tries to enlighten the world that artifacts cannot be left on the bottom of the ocean, the self serving governments creating laws to prevent recovery are essentially corrupt, that in order to recover the treasure and historical/cultural past is an expensive enterprise that taxpayers cannot adsorb. All these shipwrecks and their contents have been on the ocean bottom for hundreds of years with no attempt by any government agencies to search for, recover, or even identify until private enterprise "treasure hunters" take on the expense in terms of money, manpower, research and time to go about accomplishing this monumental task. These government agencies simply wait until we "Treasure Hunters" find the ships and if there is "treasure" involved, pounce on the wreck with laws that they create for their own purposes. Isn't it obvious that of all the historical wrecks out there that the only ones the governments seem to go after are the ones with treasure or the ones with artifacts of significant value. Their argument about historical/cultural significance seems to pale under review doesn't it. I suggest that you, seekerGH, do a little soul searching and get off your sanctimonious high horse.

 

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[Au_Dreamers]

""on the continent of North America." The specificity of this territorial limit convinced the court that the shipwrecks were not part of the cession since they were located on the seabed."

Is the continental shelf part of the continent?

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Who has the burden of proving abandonment, the entity claiming title?

 

[seekerGH]

You know, seekerGH, I've been involved with this stuff for a long time. It's quite apparent that you neither empathize with us treasure hunters or even treasure hunt yourself.

Really, take the time to read what I have posted, on the numerous threads in response to what has been posted. Reading most of the posts here on TNET, would the State of Florida, a Court, or any ruling body consider the 'efforts' by 'treasure hunters' in a positive note on historical account?

Look at the pyramids in Eqypt, the knowledge that has been gained by COMPLETE and IN CONTEXT recovery of COMPLETE sites. The sites that have been looted and sold off over the millenia, leaving what to the historical account and knowledge? In 100 or 500 years, what will the historical accounts label the 'treasure hunting' of today?

Imagine an archaeological recovery of a site on land, that used a jet engine pointed downward to blow away the sand and dirt, only leaving the heaviest of objects?
How would that be viewed by the world? and history?

I am trying very, very hard to make this work, as a professional. Providing the actual FACTS and CASE LAW on the issues are ONLY the attempt to educate on the issues, and PREVENT the continued degradation of the business by hacks and sh8thouse 'lawyers'.

You are correct, I do have a lack of empathy for those who are jeopardizing this business, and threaten my business.
I have, and will continue to attack and protect my interests.

It is obvious that the whole 'treasure hunter' tag is not regarded as positive for the business, so you need to to decide to be a part of the problem or part of the solution.

Time to evolve or become a casualty of evolution.

 

[enrada]

SeekerGH
Would you by chance happen to be an Archaeologist who believes in the "insitu" philosophy? When I see the word "insitu" I replace it with the words "for job security" and then it all makes sense.

 

[huntsman53]

Really, take the time to read what I have posted, on the numerous threads in response to what has been posted. Reading most of the posts here on TNET, would the State of Florida, a Court, or any ruling body consider the 'efforts' by 'treasure hunters' in a positive note on historical account?

Look at the pyramids in Eqypt, the knowledge that has been gained by COMPLETE and IN CONTEXT recovery of COMPLETE sites. The sites that have been looted and sold off over the millenia, leaving what to the historical account and knowledge? In 100 or 500 years, what will the historical accounts label the 'treasure hunting' of today?

Imagine an archaeological recovery of a site on land, that used a jet engine pointed downward to blow away the sand and dirt, only leaving the heaviest of objects?
How would that be viewed by the world? and history?

I am trying very, very hard to make this work, as a professional. Providing the actual FACTS and CASE LAW on the issues are ONLY the attempt to educate on the issues, and PREVENT the continued degradation of the business by hacks and sh8thouse 'lawyers'.

You are correct, I do have a lack of empathy for those who are jeopardizing this business, and threaten my business.
I have, and will continue to attack and protect my interests.

It is obvious that the whole 'treasure hunter' tag is not regarded as positive for the business, so you need to to decide to be a part of the problem or part of the solution.

Time to evolve or become a casualty of evolution.

All of this coming from a member whose Primary Interests listed in their' Profile is: "All Types of Treasure Hunting". So, in reality that puts you in the same boat as the rest of us and seen in the same limelight or dimlight! Since many Archaeologists, especially those in Florida are lazy bloodsuckers that only get off their' a&$es when we Treasure Hunters/Salvors find or throw them a bone, then how would many of the Historical Archaeological sites be found without us??!!


Frank

 

[Jolly Mon]

Really, take the time to read what I have posted, on the numerous threads in response to what has been posted. Reading most of the posts here on TNET, would the State of Florida, a Court, or any ruling body consider the 'efforts' by 'treasure hunters' in a positive note on historical account?

Look at the pyramids in Eqypt, the knowledge that has been gained by COMPLETE and IN CONTEXT recovery of COMPLETE sites. The sites that have been looted and sold off over the millenia, leaving what to the historical account and knowledge? In 100 or 500 years, what will the historical accounts label the 'treasure hunting' of today?

Imagine an archaeological recovery of a site on land, that used a jet engine pointed downward to blow away the sand and dirt, only leaving the heaviest of objects?
How would that be viewed by the world? and history?

I am trying very, very hard to make this work, as a professional. Providing the actual FACTS and CASE LAW on the issues are ONLY the attempt to educate on the issues, and PREVENT the continued degradation of the business by hacks and sh8thouse 'lawyers'.

You are correct, I do have a lack of empathy for those who are jeopardizing this business, and threaten my business.
I have, and will continue to attack and protect my interests.

It is obvious that the whole 'treasure hunter' tag is not regarded as positive for the business, so you need to to decide to be a part of the problem or part of the solution.

Time to evolve or become a casualty of evolution.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Imagine an archaeological recovery of a site on land, that used a jet engine pointed downward to blow away the sand and dirt, only leaving the heaviest of objects?
How would that be viewed by the world? and history?

Time to evolve or become a casualty of evolution.

Absolutely correct!! State of Texas archaeologists got wise and evolved and used propwash excavation to recover artifacts for their museum!!!!

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Imagine an archaeological recovery of a site on land, that used a jet engine pointed downward to blow away the sand and dirt, only leaving the heaviest of objects?
How would that be viewed by the world? and history?

Land sites vs marine sites are apples and tractor tires.

I don't believe by that expression you used that you fully understand the high energy, shallow water,marine environment that many shipwrecks like the 1715 fleet are within.

 

[seekerGH]

Oh the irony.

 

[Bum Luck]

SeekerGH
Would you by chance happen to be an Archaeologist who believes in the "insitu" philosophy? When I see the word "insitu" I replace it with the words "for job security" and then it all makes sense.

Nope, "insitu" means they never get off their butts.

If it were up to them, there would be virtually no wrecks worked at all. No cultural heritage ever brought to light.

 

[eyemustdigtreasure]

Finders Keepers!
So! The Spanish STOLE these neat items...!
I shouldn't think then, that they in turn, would
want to claim the stuff..., as THEIRS! Salvage companies would then have to have a lawyer on the payroll...!

 

[seekerGH]

SeekerGH
Would you by chance happen to be an Archaeologist who believes in the "insitu" philosophy? When I see the word "insitu" I replace it with the words "for job security" and then it all makes sense.

Did you read my post on the issue?


Imagine an archaeological recovery of a site on land, that used a jet engine pointed downward to blow away the sand and dirt, only leaving the heaviest of objects?
How would that be viewed by the world? and history?

I am trying very, very hard to make this work, as a professional. Providing the actual FACTS and CASE LAW on the issues are ONLY the attempt to educate on the issues, and PREVENT the continued degradation of the business by hacks and sh8thouse 'lawyers'.

You are correct, I do have a lack of empathy for those who are jeopardizing this business, and threaten my business.
I have, and will continue to attack and protect my interests.

It is obvious that the whole 'treasure hunter' tag is not regarded as positive for the business, so you need to to decide to be a part of the problem or part of the solution.

It is obvious that I am a professional in marine recoveries. Call me a marine archaeologist, call me whatever, but I am paid to properly recover sites. I recognize the value of context, and recognize what improper recovery techniques do to jeopardize the value of the recovery, not to mention the potentially valuable items that may be missed.
I do not, and will not work for a percentage of the value nor the recovery. My projects are not based on the ability to sell the recovery to get paid. The rate is set, and I am paid my same rate if they find $10 or $100 million. I live comfortably with this business model.
I do not need to splash headlines in attempts to create pretentious values to attract investors.

 

[aquanut]

Did you read my post on the issue?


Imagine an archaeological recovery of a site on land, that used a jet engine pointed downward to blow away the sand and dirt, only leaving the heaviest of objects?
How would that be viewed by the world? and history?

I am trying very, very hard to make this work, as a professional. Providing the actual FACTS and CASE LAW on the issues are ONLY the attempt to educate on the issues, and PREVENT the continued degradation of the business by hacks and sh8thouse 'lawyers'.

You are correct, I do have a lack of empathy for those who are jeopardizing this business, and threaten my business.
I have, and will continue to attack and protect my interests.

It is obvious that the whole 'treasure hunter' tag is not regarded as positive for the business, so you need to to decide to be a part of the problem or part of the solution.

It is obvious that I am a professional in marine recoveries. Call me a marine archaeologist, call me whatever, but I am paid to properly recover sites. I recognize the value of context, and recognize what improper recovery techniques do to jeopardize the value of the recovery, not to mention the potentially valuable items that may be missed.
I do not, and will not work for a percentage of the value nor the recovery. My projects are not based on the ability to sell the recovery to get paid. The rate is set, and I am paid my same rate if they find $10 or $100 million. I live comfortably with this business model.
I do not need to splash headlines in attempts to create pretentious values to attract investors.

Then, am I correct in determining that you are somehow receiving tax dollars for your subsistence?

By the way, comparing a jet engine on land to a 3 knot column of water in a "dynamic marine environment" is not even close to apples and oranges. Have you ever even experienced being under a blower? Sometimes it is simply to supply clear surface water to the murky layer at the bottom. The amount of overburden can also be controlled. Airlifts, dredges and ping pong paddles simply won't get the job done efficiently when cost vs reward is in the mix.

 

[P.ALLEN]

Meh, just don't tell anyone.

 

[ARC]

Finders Keepers!
So! The Spanish STOLE these neat items...!
I shouldn't think then, that they in turn, would
want to claim the stuff..., as THEIRS! Salvage companies would then have to have a lawyer on the payroll...!

Good comment actually...
And has been a point of mine since the dawn of my time in this interest of mine.

What kills me... and I mean really peeves me...

In MOST cases concerning sunken valuables of this time period... the ownership of said items is viewed as belonging to the ships owners... when in fact SOME items that may be aboard the vessel may in fact be "stolen" or "acquired" by illegal means.

Returning these items to these "claimants" is like returning a stolen stereo to the burglar who stole it because he was last in possession of it.

Personally... I have always believed in... "want it back after someone else has expended the time, money and effort to recover it"... then pay the piper for his work.

Otherwise... you are in jeopardy of future discoveries being looted and ripped clean ... and possibly never been "found" at all.

This IMO will be the case more and more as the grip tightens on lost historical items.

There is no "incentive" for anyone to report or share... let alone hand over anything willingly knowing that all can be lost or taken from the discoverer.

 

[huntsman53]

Good comment actually...
And has been a point of mine since the dawn of my time in this interest of mine.

What kills me... and I mean really peeves me...

In MOST cases concerning sunken valuables of this time period... the ownership of said items is viewed as belonging to the ships owners... when in fact SOME items that may be aboard the vessel may in fact be "stolen" or "acquired" by illegal means.

Returning these items to these "claimants" is like returning a stolen stereo to the burglar who stole it because he was last in possession of it.

Personally... I have always believed in... "want it back after someone else has expended the time, money and effort to recover it"... then pay the piper for his work.

Otherwise... you are in jeopardy of future discoveries being looted and ripped clean ... and possibly never been "found" at all.

This IMO will be the case more and more as the grip tightens on lost historical items.

There is no "incentive" for anyone to report or share... let alone hand over anything willingly knowing that all can be lost or taken from the discoverer.

The State of Florida and it's Archaeologists, claims by Spain to nearly every ship found along and off the Florida coasts and the Laws and Treaties concerning salvageability of shipwrecks and ownership can be thanked for such an environment. Sure, there are treasure hunters that are pirates that have looted many a treasure but Treasure Salvors most of which employee well respected Archaeologists, should never be compared to the former and not be hindered from recording & documenting the shipwrecks they find, recording & documenting the finds and from recovering the shipwreck finds which can be brought to the surface and displayed in museums and allows the Treasure Salvors some compensation for the hard and expensive service they provide. If the State of Florida, Spain and even the Federal Government continue to enact laws, rules, policies and treaties that deny Treasure Salvor businesses from making money to break even or possibly make a profit, then there may come a time when there will be armed confrontations at sea. I am amazed that there has not been any so far! I guess it is possible that there have been a few but none that I am aware of.


Frank

 

[seekerGH]

Then, am I correct in determining that you are somehow receiving tax dollars for your subsistence?

If one counts recoveries paid for by governments or a military's of a Sovereign Nation, then I guess that would be valid, that is just a part of the business model.

In essence, looking at the situation in Florida, working leases on State property for a percentage, are those not working for tax dollars?

There is no "incentive" for anyone to report or share... let alone hand over anything willingly knowing that all can be lost or taken from the discoverer.

One cannot imagine why there is an issue with this statement. Again, in the example of Florida, working a State owned lease, where the State gives you a percentage of the recovery, yet you feel there is no reason to report what you have found?
If you are working a site on land with permission from the landowner for a percentage, do you tell them if you found something of value, or hide the find?

 

[aquanut]

In essence, looking at the situation in Florida, working leases on State property for a percentage, are those not working for tax dollars?



One cannot imagine why there is an issue with this statement. Again, in the example of Florida, working a State owned lease, where the State gives you a percentage of the recovery, yet you feel there is no reason to report what you have found?

First of all, the "state" doesn't give us a percentage. We agree to give the state a percentage. Secondly, it doesn't cost the state a penny in tax dollars for us to work a site. The state is the beneficiary of our work, not the other way around. The fact that leases are involved is a state's way of control. They don't own the submerged lands, they "control" them in the name of public trust. Thirdly, when has the state issued a new recovery permit in the last 25 years? They haven't and they even back stab the people who have applied, so why bother? You are obviously on the wrong forum here.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

and I'll add.... Most of "the situations in Florida" are under a Federal Admiralty. By the federal law there is binding agreement to work/ recover artifacts from those sites and ANY entity impeding the work is in violation of Federal law.