Spain suing Odyssey...

[wreckdiver1715]

gibfocus - 10th July 2007
(2007-07-10 17:00:00 )

The Gibraltar Government has today reacted to suggestions by the GSLP/Liberal Alliance that the Odyssey Marine Exploration dispute with Spain is affecting the Tripartite Forum by claiming that the comments made yesterday were “Untrue.”

Just a week after the Spanish secretary of state for foreign affairs Bernadino Leon told GBC that he did not blame Gibraltar for the controversy over the Odyssey Marine Exploration dispute the Gibraltar Government has come out attacking the Oppositions claims that the issue is being used to stall the Tripartite Forum talks.

With the talks at present at a standstill, as the British Government’s cabinet reshuffle finds its feet, Number Six Convent Place today stated, “Statements by the Opposition that Spain is trying to use the tripartite forum to obtain leverage over the Odyssey question, and that Spain wants this issue on the agenda but UK and Gibraltar do not, are all wholly untrue.

“Spain has not requested that the Odyssey be put on any agenda. If Spain wanted to place Odyssey on the agenda of a Trilateral meeting, the Gibraltar and UK Government would be very happy to oblige. The trilateral process is open agenda and is intended precisely to deal with issues that arise from time to time.

“Spain has said that the current Odyssey controversy raises no contentious issue as between Spain and Gibraltar. Furthermore, since this controversy relates to a wreck out in the Atlantic Ocean there is no contentious issue for Gibraltar either. The Gibraltar Government is happy to co-operate appropriately with Spain in a normal fashion in this issue, and has already made a public call for more transparency on Odyssey’s part.” A Government spokesman further said: - “Mr Bossano’s statement could not be wider of the mark. It is simply untrue that our unwillingness to put Odyssey on the agenda is causing any hold up in a trilateral meeting. We would be delighted for this issue to be discussed in the Trilateral Forum. It is one of the purposes of the Trilateral Forum to discuss issues as and when they arise.”

 

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[Amona]

My Mom always told me "in your live do anything you want but just do it right, don't cheating, don't break the law ",......!!

Sometime to get a lots a money in your pocket easily it is a big liability hard to release.

greetings!!!

Amona

 

[jefferelli]

Sorry Wreckdiver 1715, about rule violations... but deep down inside you know i'm right...lol....

 

[ivan salis]

ask those who know the "facts"----Odyssey---- (if their in a "talking" mood that is)---otherwise it is wait until law suits settle it --- because it'll out come out in the wash then ---it'll have to---fot them to "prove" their cases on way or the other --- Ivan

 

[Amona]

Ivan

I posted here in Tr'net in the begining, in the week when Odyssey sized the coins and sent them to NY:

"Odyseey,..get a lawyer, I see you in the court",....................Bingo!! now the're in court.


When they loss the trial,I want to see all those guys that supported and invested in Odyseey.

Amona

 

[spez401]

Not to be a stickler for details... but here are a few

SWR - the reason we're only getting the "media" information is because neither Spain nor Odyssey are making any official public statements. The things Tom has posted recently are relevant because they concern the process. Odyssey went to and exported from Gibraltar. You're right though... we won't get the final word or the whole truth until Spain or Odyssey (or the courts) make some kind of public statement.

Amona - If you check the timeline and the filings, Odyssey was in court long before they announced their find. They already had the lawyers, and the court docs long before Spain got involved. When it all comes out in the trial, Spain is the one who is going to have to prove that they have any kind of claim toward Odyssey's find.

 

[Amona]

Amona - If you check the timeline and the filings, Odyssey was in court long before they announced their find. They already had the lawyers, and the court docs long before Spain got involved. When it all comes out in the trial, Spain is the one who is going to have to prove that they have any kind of claim toward Odyssey's find.

I post here according what's happen right now, not about 'something' happened long time ago! Beside,...Did you say Odyseey has been in court before for same issues? and still people invest money in that company? who have to prove the true,...spain? or you would say

Odyseey?

Amona

 

[spez401]

Amona
I AM talking about the current issues. Odyssey filed in federal court to arrest this wreck and gain "ownership" (for lack of a better term) and salvage rights to it. Their court documents give an approximate location of the wreck (Signed under oath, by the way).

Speaking generally, Spain is the "aggressor" in this instance. They are the ones that have made allegations that Odyssey has done something improper, hidden the identity of the wreck, and essentially stolen Spain's property (of which there is no evidence of). It has already been discussed how Spain's history in the modern treasure-hunting world is full of these types of tactics.

Spain will have to prove its claim against the wreck. It will have to offer both factual arguments, and legal ones, as to why they are entitled to a portion (or in their eyes - all) of the proceeds or full ownership of the wreck/cargo. At the present time, given what I know of Admiralty Law, they have the burden to prove, and it appears to be an uphill battle. Assuming the information given by odyssey is correct, both the legal and factual arguments are against Spain (It wasn't a Spanish Warship, only a hired cargo ship, and currently it lies in International waters)

 

[Amona]

Speaking generally, Spain is the "aggressor" in this instance

I don't think so, an aggressor is when He or She coming to you, your house, your country to invade, steel and kill everything that you have, Odyseey went to Spain (international waters?) to remove a treasure and Spain now is allegating what belong to them.

They are the ones that have made allegations that Odyssey has done something improper, hidden the identity of the wreck, and essentially stolen Spain's property

That's the true, just look how Mel Fisher's company had worked prior wreck and they'd procedured with the salvage and you will see the diference.

Assuming the information given by odyssey is correct,

Waooo,....

But don't worry spez401, Odyseey win in court or not, for many folks, they are stand in the same place where O.J. simpson was stood.

 

[spez401]

I really don't want this to become a "personal" argument. I am just laying out the facts as I know them to be.

As for your "selective" quotes... try not to take them completely out of context as you have done.

First... Spain IS the agressor. They have come here (the US) and challenged the rights of a US Company. The entire question, what this entire trial will hinge on, is where is the wreck. If it is in international waters... Spain is clearly the "agressor" in using strongarm tactics to get a monetary gain to which they ARE NOT entitled. If the wreck was found in Spanish waters... Odyssey will be screwed and have a lot of explaining to do.

Second... as you mentioned in your earlier post today... we are talking about Odyssey and Spain, and the current issue... NOT Mel Fisher. Also, the laws have changed since then.

Third... you are comparing a property rights case to a murder? they are two entirely differnent things. Odyssey has done everything correct (so far) under the letter of the law to secure their rights to the wreck. OJ was a murderer who was acquitted because he hired excellent attorneys and the proscecution was inept (Totally different discussion for another day). Comparing Odyssey to OJ shows a complete lack of knowledge of the US court systems (both Federal and State).

Finally... We must assume that everything Odyssey has FILED IN COURT is accurate. If it is not, the basis for their claim is Fraudulent and all rights to the wreck would be dismissed and open to anyone else. We will not know where the wreck lies (if ever) until after a Judge or possibly a jury decides the issues based on all of the evidence presented by both parties. Likely the exact location of the wreck will be sealed in the court documents to protect the victor.

My point is this. Many have made assumptions based on their own opinions which others then take as fact. I have read the documents, and get slightly annoyed when misinformation is propounded. That is the case here. Opinions are not facts. The only "facts" that anyone has are the court documents.

steve

oh... and ps.. misquoting, partial quotes, and taking quotes out of context, drives me insane. if you wish to qoute me, please use at least the entire sentence and try not to deliberately take it out of context.

 

[Amona]

Third... you are comparing a property rights case to a murder? they are two entirely differnent things. Odyssey has done everything correct (so far) under the letter of the law to secure their rights to the wreck. OJ was a murderer who was acquitted because he hired excellent attorneys and the proscecution was inept (Totally different discussion for another day). Comparing Odyssey to OJ shows a complete lack of knowledge of the US court systems (both Federal and State).

Steve
Murder and steel archaeology property in other country for any court is considered both a "CRIME", dump garbage outside in public places in some state is considered a "CRIME",not matter if you want to see it, that's why I mentioned O.J. simpson.If you think that is lack of knowledge, you should check again your lawyer.

The only "facts" that anyone has are the court documents.

I hope you're right

Amona

 

[wreckdiver1715]

When they loss the trial,I want to see all those guys that supported and invested in Odyseey.

Amona

Amona, I and a hand full of others that have stood by Odyssey Marine (and still investors), from the beginning are here and waiting with everyone else, and will still be here regardless of the outcome. The question I have is...
Will the anti-Odyssey crowd be anyplace to be found if the courts rule in favor of OMEX?

Spez401, thanks for trying to keep us all straight on the legal issues involved. Your alright for a lawyer .

Tom

 

[jeff k]

gibfocus - 11th July 2007
(2007-07-11 22:10:00 )

Odyssey vessel to leave Gibraltar as tensions ease


A change in ministers within Spain’s Culture Ministry this week will see the first significant effects on Gibraltar as reports suggest that the Ocean Alert, one of the two Odyssey Marine Exploration vessels is due to leave Gibraltar tomorrow morning.

The Ocean Alert is expected to depart Gibraltar at around 8-8.30am tomorrow, Wednesday morning. The vessel is expected to leave by itself, with the Odyssey Explorer staying behind at its present berth in Gibraltar.

Officials sources have today confirmed that the vessel is expected to be boarded in an orderly and predetermined way by Spanish officials, in which they are expected to search the vessel. The boarding is, however, not expected to take place within Gibraltar waters and is likely to take place away from Gibraltar, further reducing the political significance of the boarding.

The departure of the Ocean Alert, and the expected boarding of the vessel is expected to reduce the tensions between Spain and the US company, in which the presence of the vessel has already further tainted the image of Gibraltar.

The same sources have this evening indicated that the presence of Odyssey Marine Exploration has been viewed as a political irritant in which Gibraltar has gained nothing out of the activities of Odyssey Marine Exploration in Gibraltar. Suggestions that there has been some gain from the treasure being exported has been denied, with well informed sources indicating that under current laws there was no necessity for an import license to be applied for. The license only having been obtained as a way of obtaining a record through which any political wrangling over the actual cargo in transit could be verified officially. Suggestions that this has resulted in gains for Gibraltar having been dismissed by the same high level sources .

Gibfocus also understands that the location of the treasure, is off the coastline of EL Faro, Portugal and not as first suggested off the coastline of Lands End in the UK. Whilst the treasure is believed to be from a Spanish colonial era vessel, the location of the shipwreck is believed to be within international waters off the Portuguese coastline. Official sources have this evening suggested that the vessel is a Spanish colonial vessel. Odyssey Marine Exploration has, however continued to keep the location and name of the vessel a secret. Experts have nevertheless suggested that the vessel could be la Mercedes, or Nuestra Senora de Las Mercedes which sank off the Portuguese coastline in the early 1600’s. Tracking positions of the Odyssey vessels indicating that the company did operate in the same area the vessel was believed to have sank.

 

[Amona]

I'm not a Anti-Odysee guy, I just stand with the proper and correct procedure when you going to work a salvage with valuable treasure inside the vessels. Here and any place around the world "REMOVE TREASURE BELONGING TO SOME WRECK WITHOUT THE PROPER PERMISSION, WITHOUT THE PROPER CONSIDERATION OF ALL POSSIBLE PARTIES INVOLVED, IT IS CONSIDERATED A CRIME, PERIOD.

You don't have to be a lawyer to understand that basic rule. My Opinion

"ODYSEEY CHEATED AND COMMITTED PIRACY, EVEN HAVE A DOCUMENT AS A PROVE ON COURT, THE PAPER HOLD EVERYTHING YOU WRITE."

To Steve didn't like that I compared this trial with O.J. Simpson trial. Murders,thief,robber,rapist, all are considerated by law as delinquent including who brake any maritime and patrimony law in any country and all them will pay time-jail.

Jeff K wrote

Odyssey Marine Exploration has, however continued to keep the location and name of the vessel a secret

Steve,..if you have the true, you don't have to keep in secret absolutely nothing.


Amona

 

[spez401]

I tried to post something earlier, but it didn't go through for some reason...so here is the gist again, with a few additions.

SWR... you are right, some of what I said in this (and other threads) initially was based on speculation. I did the same as many other have done... kept the thread going with our opinions. However, over the last week or so, I have had a chance to read all of the documents filed by OMEX and Spain in the present case. As an attorney I have a different perspective on why things are done and how, so while you may think I am working off "speculation" just like everyone else, it isn't entirely true, based both on my knowledge and experience and the fact that I have read the documents. I don't think many here have actually done so.

We have to rely on the documents that are presented to the court. They (currently) are the only real and true sources of information. I agree 100% with SWR that most of what we know has been media hype, and we will likely not get any real information until Spain or Odyssey releases is, or it is "published" by the court in the form of a pleading or decision by the judge. From what I have read, and the research i've done, Spain has to prove their claim, and may have a tough time doing so. According to the pleadings, both the facts and the law is against them (the wreck is in international waters -salvage rules apply, and the ship was english, carrying cargo... not a spanish warship)

Amona, you posted:
"REMOVE TREASURE BELONGING TO SOME WRECK WITHOUT THE PROPER PERMISSION, WITHOUT THE PROPER CONSIDERATION OF ALL POSSIBLE PARTIES INVOLVED, IT IS CONSIDERATED A CRIME, PERIOD."
and
"ODYSEEY CHEATED AND COMMITTED PIRACY, EVEN HAVE A DOCUMENT AS A PROVE ON COURT, THE PAPER HOLD EVERYTHING YOU WRITE."
--- the fact is that neither of these statements are true. First, OMEX went to court and received all of the proper permissions, through the court, to "arrest" the wreck in question. Once that is done, they are free to remove items, conduct site work, etc. Second, saying OMEX cheated and committed piracy is akin to libel. There is NO evidence at all that OMEX has done ANYTHING wrong. What they did was within the letter of the law, and the followed all the procedures to go about this legally. Just because you don't like the way it was done, doesn't mean they did anything wrong.

Lastly, while you may consider yourself honest, many people are not. The reason they will not likely release the exact location to the public (or at least seal the court evidentiary record) is because of those not so honest people. Those pirates you are talking about would have no qualms about plundering and destroying what is left of the wreck while it is unattended by the rightful owners.

here are the facts that we do know
1. We arent' likely to get any more credible information until it is released by the court, OMEX or Spain
2. OMEX has done everything by the book and within the law to arrest the wreck, even though many look at what they did as "sneaky"
3. Spain has filed a claim against the wreck, and it is up to them to prove that they are entitled to any portion of it.
4. Spain has a history of this type of "strongarming" by use of the legal system (and international pressures) to gain favorable leverage when dealing with treasure hunters
5. the location of the wreck needs to be protected and secrecy on its location is likely
6. If OMEX filed a pleading with incorrect (intentionally) information, then they are screwed and the basis of their salvage claim (the us federal court order) will be dismissed. (I don't think this is likely however)

steve

 

[jeff k]

swr... I see you intentionally failed to mention the jury found them innocent of the charges, and in case you didn't know the judge said the SEC should have never brought the case to trial.

 

[ivan salis]

---seahawk said never said the men were "guilty" of anything---but in a attempt to prevent spending a lot of the companies money on a long drawn out costly court battle--they quite wisely offered to "cut a deal" with the govt---and said seahawk would not hire them to work for them---not the other way around---seahawk thus saved lots on money on "legal fees" that even if your proven innocent they could not have easily gotten back from the SEC (GOVT) --- thus settling the suit easily and cheaply---no "guilt" was proven---and seahawk was later hired by the men to "work" for them ---all perfectly legal---if the GOVT lawyers were to stupid to make the "deal" read legally that that seahawk and these men were not do conduct any bussiness dealings together in any way ---shame on them for being stupid and thus out "smarted" by seahawh and these men---Ivan

 

[jeff k]

ODYSSEY VESSEL FORCED TO ALGECIRAS BY GUARDIA CIVIL
Brian Reyes, Gibraltar Chronicle reporter, is on board Odyssey Alert.


‘Ocean Alert’ one the of treasure hunting ships of the Odyssey Marine Exploration salvage company has been taken to a berth in Campamento near Algeciras port, Spain under threat of arrest. It is set to be searched under an order from a La Linea court. The vessel left Gibraltar this morning having informed the Spanish authorities of its intended departure and was shadowed out of Gibraltar waters by a Guardia Civil patrol boat.

Once three miles off Europa Point, Gibraltar in international waters – claimed by the Guardia Civil to be Spanish waters - the vessel was forcefully boarded at 10am CET. Odyssey had a Spanish lawyer on board and the captain of Ocean Alert agreed to be escorted to port. Four Guardia Civil officers are onboard. There was a corvette and a small rib accompanying the Guardia Civil patrol boat.

The move follows two Odyssey vessels having spent the past three weeks effectively imprisoned in Gibraltar as the company negotiated with the Spanish Government to seek to secure free passage.

Aladar Nesser who is in charge of Odysseys International Business Development and on board the vessel said "We made it clear to them that we were being illegally boarded in international waters under threat of force."

This followed exchanges between the captain and the Guardia Civil in which to the Odyssey repeatedly stated that it was in international waters and the Guardia Civil inisisted the waters are Spanish.

Spain does not formally recognise British waters around the Rock which are set at a three mile perimetre and instead says that all waters 12 miles off Spain are Spanish.

Lawyer for Odyssey Marie Rogers, also on board said: "The master was not given an option. They came on board and that was it."

Spain was furious when it emerged that a vast treasure trove of silver and gold coins was flown out from Gibraltar having been recovered from an unidentified vessel codenamed Black Swan. Odyssey say that the Black Swan vessel was discovered in international waters but Spain is convinced it may have a right to a claim. The issue is also set to be considered in a Miami court, which originally authorised the salvage, in a fortnight.

In May the "Black Swan", a Colonial period shipwreck was discovered by Odyssey Marine Exploration in the Atlantic Ocean. Yielding over 500,000 silver coins weighing more than 17 tons, hundreds of gold coins, worked gold, and other artifacts, it is believed that this recovery constitutes the largest collection of coins ever excavated from a historical shipwreck site.

 

[Amona]

First, OMEX went to court and received all of the proper permissions, through the court, to "arrest" the wreck in question

What Court? Spain?,Gibraltar?,...which one? be clear please

There is NO evidence at all that OMEX has done ANYTHING wrong. What they did was within the letter of the law, and the followed all the procedures to go about this legally. Just because you don't like the way it was done, doesn't mean they did anything wrong

Steve,...give me a break!! it isn't how I want be done, it's pretty much how it should be for all.
They, Odyseey, never allowed that any spanish archaeologist get on boat to supervise the excavation works during the time they were working on Gibraltar waters. They never had in consideration that others parties in Spain had right over many shipwreck in those waters,they worked only thinking to find the treasure and take it to America, that's it, they didn't care,..do you know why? because many people here are like you, sub-estimate Spaniard, Latin people and everything that speak Spanish,...that's the true!! that it is a "F" issues existing for many century.

I will give my recommendation, OPEN VERY WELL YOUR EYES,THE TRUE NEVER,EVER WILL BE HIDDEN.

Amona

 

[Admiral de Salee]

To the individual known as Amona:

[quoting you]

I don't think so, an aggressor is when He or She coming to you, your house, your country to invade, steel and kill everything that you have

[end quote]

I can't believe you said that.
Pretty much describes Spaniards in the Americas, wot?
Interesting that your high-tone judgments are so compartmentalized to different eras in history.