Spain suing Odyssey...

[ivan salis]

as I stated long ago ---the amount and type of cargo (coins) and general area cut the odds way down as to the indenty of the possible wreck---good research tells"secerts" to those who do it ---spanish and mixed coins on a english vessel---spain will still try to get their claws on as much as they can and if odyssey would have took it back to mainland england there might have been some "legal trickery" waiting there ----what with the "merchant royal" being a for hire ship from england-- why some "english" folks (for the right price) might have made out the ship was "sold to spain" and thus was not "english at all"---not thatspanish / english goverments would do a nasty trick like that just to get their hands on 500 million now would they? --- the merchant royal is my bet and odyssey played their hand smartly --they got the money "in hand" safely in the USA-- now its between the american or possibilly english courts depending on the nationality of the vessel to sort it out-----don't know how spain will feel about the "sussex recovery" now though--- spain might put "roadblocks" in the way of the sussex recovery for spite if they don't get "paid" some of the merchant royal money-----Ivan

 

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[jeff k]

swr/tubs... I don't believe they announced that the coins came from the MR. I think that was the posters opinion.

Europa Press...

MADRID, 27 Jun. (EUROPE PRESS) -


The Ministry of Culture handles like main hypothesis that the shipment extracted by the Odyssey was in international waters. Thus it today honored the minister of Culture, Carmen Calvo, during her appearance in the Commission of Culture of the Congress.

According to Calvo, the Ministry is working in two hypotheses “that could be simultaneous and nonexcluding”, clarified. First referred to the “treasure” extracted by the company Odyssey Marine Exploration. “We think that one is a shipment extracted of pecio of Spanish flag that is in international waters”, it explained. “All the investigation made until now, the data collected on the positions of the boats and other elements that comprise of the made performances lead to us to think that this hypothesis is most likely as for the “treasure””, it argued.

With respect to the second hypothesis, the holder of Culture indicated that she talks about “to presumed illicit activities of the Odyssey company by presumed expolio, that are being investigated at the moment by the previous diligences opened in the Court of Instruction nº 1 of the Line of the Conception”.

 

[jeff k]

They did arrest a ship off Lands End last year that may be the MR, but I doubt that thay said the coins came from that site. If you read his post again there is no mention where the coins came from.

 

[Peg Leg]

The cannons are loaded and the swords are sharpened.
Waiting.
LETS THE GAMES BEGIN.
Peg Leg

 

[spez401]

I would tend to say that information disseminated in that way is NOT an "official statement" by the company and/or its representatives. That doesn't mean the statement is not true, however. You have to remember that there is an ongoing legal battle over the treasure. Offhanded or "unofficial" statements, are just that... unofficial. "Official" statements can be used in court to discredit, impeach, etc. Unofficials are just that... unofficial.

Odyssey's attorneys have most likeley advised them against making and kind of official statements and "press releases" of any kind until the matter is settled with certainty. (I know that's exactly what I would advise them of). That doesn't preclude or prohibit people from talking about it though, or giving information to clarify rumor and dispel speculation. If one of the higher-ups at Odyssey is saying that it's the merchant royal, then it PROBABLY is.

steve

 

[spez401]

SWR...

i would reread my last post. It PROBABLY is the Merchant Royal... but the only way you (or anyone else for that matter) are going to get a definite answer is to either a) ask the OMR president directly - and be prepared for a non-commital answer, b) wait for the OFFICIAL press release, or c) wait till it is decided in court and the results are published

steve

 

[spez401]

SWR
I'm pretty sure that salvor was there, and that he's posting what he heard... but if you're looking for any kind of definite answer, or official position from OMR, you're probably going to have to wait like the rest of us to find out what is going on.

on a side note, I'm trying to get some info through the Federal Court on what is going on with the action. If I hear anything, i'll post it

steve

 

[Voldbjerg]

Spez

In these cases - who have the burden of proof(not sure if this is the correct term)?

/V

 

[Salvor6]

Read carefully what the Treasure Net member posted.

 

[jeff k]

Gibraltar Chronicle...

Odyssey row
SPAIN REVIEWS POSITION ON TREASURE LOCATION
by Brian Reyes

Spain believes the controversial haul of silver coins raised by Odyssey Marine Exploration came from a Spanish wreck in international waters.

Spanish Culture Minister Carmen Calvo told Parliament in Madrid yesterday that all the evidence gathered so far made this "the most likely hypothesis".

She did not say which ship could have yielded the find, but repeated previous statements that Spain would protect its position in respect of the treasure.

The identity of the wreck and the location of the site have been kept secret by Odyssey for security reasons, despite repeated requests by Spain for information. In fact the company said it is not yet 100% sure of the name of the ship.

It has also insisted that the wreck is in the Atlantic outside the territorial waters of any nation. The matter is now in the hands of a US court.

The secrecy surrounding the find, codenamed Black Swan by Odyssey, has raised diplomatic tensions between Madrid, London and Gibraltar.

It has also fuelled furious speculation about the possible identity of the wreck.

Attention focused initially on the 366-year old Merchant Royal, an English vessel which sank off the Isles of Scilly carrying a cargo of Spanish coins.

But the Sunday Times, echoing an earlier article in the Spanish daily El Pais, reported this week that Spain suspected the treasure raised by Odyssey came from the Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes.

The Mercedes was a Spanish frigate sunk by English warships in 1804 while en route from Montevideo to Cádiz carrying over one million silver coins and other artefacts.

Shortly after the battle two English captains involved in the action noted the position in their logbooks. They were at a point around 33 nautical miles off Faro, Portugal, outside the territorial waters of either Portugal or neighbouring Spain.

Using commercially-available shipping databases that record vessel movements via satellite technology, the Chronicle established that the Odyssey Explorer, the company's main ship, spent at least 19 hours very close to that same position towards the end of last April.

On at least two separate days, the Odyssey Explorer was logged in the exact spot where contemporary reports from 1804 say the Mercedes sank.

By May 12, the Odyssey Explorer was back in Gibraltar. Four days later a US commercial plane landed on the Rock and spent two days parked on the runway.

On May 17 it took off carrying the valuable cargo of sunken treasure, which by some estimates is worth up to $500m. On May 18, Odyssey announced its find to the world.

The evidence, of course, is all circumstantial and there is no definitive proof that the Black Swan is indeed the Mercedes.

At least one treasure hunter unrelated to Odyssey claims to have located the wreck of the Spanish frigate some years ago in an altogether different location just one mile off the Portuguese coast.

It is even possible that neither of the two Odyssey ships in Gibraltar - the Odyssey Explorer and the Ocean Alert - was involved in the Black Swan recovery, and that their presence at any individual location is irrelevant to the find.

When it announced the haul, Odyssey said it would not reveal the location, depth or any information about the site, "or even which ship or ROV system was used in the recovery."

"The Company from time to time may charter additional ships for augmenting search or recovery activities," it said on the day it announced the discovery.

"The Company has a complete additional search system, and two complete additional ROV systems which can be used on other ships of opportunity."

But there now seems little doubt that it is information such as the vessel movements in the Atlantic that has led the Spanish Government to the hypothesis revealed by Mrs Calvo yesterday.

As officials in Madrid continue to push for more detail, Mrs Calvo noted that a parallel investigation had been initiated in a court in La Linea to assess whether any Spanish heritage laws have been breached, a suggestion which the company rejects.

 

[jeff k]

Sovereign immunity only applies to warships that have to fulfill very specific criteria according to the Law of the Sea Convention, and they must be exclusively on a non-commercial service. In addition, virtually all spanish "Treasure Ships" coming from the New World during the Colonial era (including the one mentioned in the article - the Mercedes) were mostly carrying money owned by merchants - not by the King, which would make it pretty obvious that they were not "exclusively on a non-commercial mission." Besides, even salvors of sovereign immune shipwrecks are still able to claim salvage awards.

As for merchant vessels such as the Merchant Royal, there is no legal mechanism by which Spain can claim sovereign immmunity for a cargo on a merchant ship. Even if they absolutely proved that they owned the cargo, Odyssey would still get a substantial salvage award.

 

[spez401]

Voldbjerg
Technically in a case like this, the moving party (in this case Spain) has the burden of proof (yes that is the correct term) to affirmatively show that yes in fact they do have a claim to the wreck. The practical matter, however, is that they cannot do so without getting substantial amounts of information from OMR (or is it OMEX now).

Either way, Odyssey will eventually have to give up some details regarding the wreck and where the coins came from. It is likely however that the proceedings will be sealed from the public to protect the location and or any other confidential/classified information.

Either way, I don't forsee any of us getting any real information on the wreck or its status until Odyssey makes some kind of public, officail statement.

On a side note, I was attempting to look up the actual "pleadings" (the actual documents filed by spain in the middle district of florida) and was unable to view them. That could be for many reasons, including but not limited to because the court is behind and hasn't posted the actual motions/complaints yet, or because they are in fact sealed. I wanted to see if Spain filed a separate suit against Odyssey (none that I could find) or if they "piggybacked" their motions/complaints onto the existing admiralty claims which Odyssey has filed in the last year (there are 2). I'm quite curious about the allegations and the actual wording in the docs (and i'm sure you all are as well)

If i do find them, i'll let you all know (if it is possible)
steve

 

[jeff k]

Steve... All the motions are on Pacer, and Goold did piggyback on all three arrests. Type in "Odyssey Marine" for the last name on the search page, and all cases will show. Here's Odyssey's last motion.

Filed & Entered 06/26/2007
Terminated: 06/27/2007

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF FLORIDA
TAMPA DIVISION
IN ADMIRALTY
ODYSSEY MARINE EXPLORATION, INC.
Plaintiff, CIVIL ACTION
vs. Case No.: 8:07-CV-00614-SCB-MAP
THE UNIDENTIFIED, SHIPWRECKED
VESSEL, its apparel, tackle,
appurtenances and cargo located within
center point coordinates:
(to be provided to the Court under seal),
in rem,
Defendant(s).
________________________________________/
UNOPPOSED MOTION FOR EXTENSION OF TIME TO RESPOND TO
KINGDOM OF SPAIN’S MOTION FOR MORE DEFINITE STATEMENT
AND OTHER DISCLOSURE OR, IN THE ALTERNATIVE, TO DISMISS
COMES NOW, Plaintiff, ODYSSEY MARINE EXPLORATION, INC. (“Odyssey”), by
and through undersigned counsel, and moves this Honorable Court for an extension to respond to the KINGDOM OF SPAIN’s Motion for Definite Statement and Other Disclosure or, in the
Alternative, to Dismiss (Docket #16) in this matter, and in support thereof would state:
1. ODYSSEY and the KINGDOM OF SPAIN have discussed this matter in detail
and have agreed that an extension should be granted until July 23, 2007.
2. The reason for the extension is to allow ODYSSEY to conduct more research and
to respond fully and completely to the Motion for Definite Statement and Other Disclosure or, in the Alternative, to Dismiss.
3. It is anticipated that part of the response will be additional information provided
to the KINGDOM OF SPAIN.

WHEREFORE, in light of the KINGDOM OF SPAIN’s agreement, it is requested that
the Court permit ODYSSEY until July 23, 2007, to respond to the Motion for Definite Statement
and Other Disclosure or, in the Alternative, to Dismiss.
MEMORANDUM OF LAW
The Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, Rule 6(b) provides that the Court can always
extend or enlarge times when justice so requires. In this instance, it is in the benefit of justice to allow the extension of time to respond to the KINGDOM OF SPAIN’s motion.
CERTIFICATE UNDER LOCAL RULE 3.01(g)
Pursuant to Local Rule 3.01(g), undersigned counsel certifies that he has conferred in
good faith with counsel for Claimant, Kingdom of Spain, concerning the substance of this
motion, and that counsel agree on the resolution of same.

 

[spez401]

thanks jeff
I was trying to get them through lexis in my office, but sometimes they are a little behind. The motion I was looking for is the initial one that Spain filed... the one you posted was a request by odyssey for an extension to answer

steve

 

[hmmm]

Does any one know more?
"(United Nations Commission on International Trade Law) is currently at work creating an Underwater Cultural Heritage agreement that would protect shipwrecks based on their archeological value. But the high seas are loosely regulated until that treaty is signed, sealed and delivered."

 

[jeff k]

Gibraltar Chronicle...

ODYSSEY, HOW THE TREASURE WAS MOVED
by Brian Reyes

Odyssey Marine Exploration flew sunken treasure from Gibraltar to the US on two separate occasions, not just one as was previously thought. Only one of the planes carried the bulk of the valuable cargo, though the other aircraft was engaged on a crucial mission in the run-up to the main flight.

Details of the flights emerged as Odyssey intensified its efforts to reach a breakthrough in the standoff with Spain.

The company this week delivered a sworn statement to key Spanish authorities setting out its position on the shipwreck it has codenamed Black Swan.

Odyssey is trying to engage with the Spanish authorities to reach an agreed solution to a festering row that for weeks has kept its two vessels effectively blockaded in Gibraltar.

The affidavit signed by Odyssey co-founder Greg Stemm follows persistent controversy over the treasure recovered by the company from the wreck, which Spain believes to be that of a Spanish warship.

Although it stops short of identifying the wreck or its location, the statement provides an overview of the Black Swan project and includes details of Odyssey’s contacts with Spain going back over a decade.

The affidavit was sent to officials in the Ministry for Foreign Affairs, the Ministry for Culture and the public prosecutor in Cádiz, among others.

Odyssey’s statement adds to information already provided by officials in London and Gibraltar to their counterparts in Madrid, including details of the flights from Gibraltar.

Until now, attention has been focused on the flight that carried the main haul of treasure to the US.

But that flight was preceded by another, far more discreet trip.

The Chronicle can now reveal that on April 10, a Gulfstream GV private jet chartered by the US company took off from Gibraltar bound for the US.

On board the plane were a number of coins and artefacts raised from the seabed at the Black Swan site in the Atlantic Ocean.

The flight represented a vital step for Odyssey.

The company needed physical evidence to secure legal rights over the site and prevent anyone else from working there.

The artefacts were placed before a court in Tampa, Florida, on April 11 as part of a motion to arrest the site in Odyssey’s name. The motion was granted the following day.

In the ensuing weeks the company’s vessel Odyssey Explorer was at work in international waters in the Atlantic, arriving back in Gibraltar on May 12.

A few days later on May 16, a Boeing 757 chartered by Odyssey also arrived on the Rock.

In the early hours of May 17, a single truck operated by a local logistics company ferried 17 tonnes of treasure from the Odyssey Explorer, which was berthed at the Naval Base, to the plane waiting at the airport.

By midday, the aircraft was in the air en route for the US.

In both cases Odyssey had secured all the necessary customs documents for each shipment.

The Spanish Government has been in possession of that information for at least three weeks, the Chronicle understands.

 

[mariner]

Salvor 6,

So did the Odyssey people indicate whether the wreck that the coins came from was found west of Gibraltar, or west of the Scilly Isles, as reported in the English newspapers?

Mariner

 

[jefferelli]

IF IT WAS LOST TO BEGIN WITH... AND NOW SOMEONE HAS LOCATED IT...AND THEY DID ALL THE HARD WORK AND RESEARCH TO LOCATE THESE GOLD LADEN WRECKS... THEY SHOULD RECIEVE THE SPOILS OF THEIR HARD WORK... NO IF'S ANDS OR BUT'S....BUT HERE COMES THE COUNTRIES WHO LOST ALL OF THESE SHIPMENTS 100-190 YRS. AGO... AND THEY WANT IT ALL!!! WELL TO heck WITH YOU... GET OF YOUR LAZY BUMS AND FIND IT YOURSELFS OTHERWISE LEAVE US ALONE AND LET US REAP OR REWARDS THAT ARE JUSTIFYINGLY DESERVED.... BESIDES THERE MESSING WITH MY STOCK OPTIONS... LOL....

 

[wreckdiver1715]

Jefferelli, while I agree with some of your comments... please refrain from, and modify your last comments. Using all CAPS in your text is considered yelling, and is a violation of forum rules.

Thanks

Tom

 

[wreckdiver1715]

Opposition enters Odyssey Debate

gibfocus - 9th July 2007
( 2007-07-09 00:16:00)

The Opposition has today attacked the Spanish Government for allegedly trying to place pressure on the Gibraltar Government over the operations of Odyssey Marine Exploration through the Tripartite Forum, and asking for details on the export license provided for the transfer of the treasure to the US.

In a statement today the Opposition has said: “The Opposition understands that the Spanish Government has been seeking to put pressure in the context of the tripartite forum to have their complaints regarding the Odyssey operation resolved. Spain wants this issue to be included as an agenda item in the next round of talks if the matter is not resolved to their satisfaction before then.

“It is also claimed that neither the United Kingdom nor the Gibraltar Government are keen to see this happen. However, Spain's position is that they are not willing to proceed to any future tripartite meeting without Odyssey on the agenda if issues remain pending.

“The Opposition has made it very clear from the beginning, in the context of the search for HMS Sussex, that Spain had no right to be consulted over the vessel or to be involved in its recovery. It is believed that the wreck of the Sussex lies in what would be Gibraltar waters of the east coast, if we enjoyed the normal twelve miles of territorial sea that we are entitled to claim, instead of just three miles.

“That is to say, either those waters are Gibraltar waters or they are international waters. They are not Spanish waters under any circumstances and we cannot create a precedent that these are Spanish waters by accommodating Madrid's demands.

“In a recent interview for a US television programme scheduled for broadcast on the Discovery channel, the Leader of the Opposition made precisely this point to the interviewer. In addition, when asked to comment as to the rationale of Spain's position, Mr Bossano made the point that given that we are dealing with a country that lost Gibraltar 303 years ago, and that believes it still belongs to them, it is not surprising that they should argue that if there is any treasure lost in the vicinity of Gibraltar it must belong to them as well.

“During the course of the interview, Mr Bossano stressed that we believe in the rule of law and that therefore if there was any question of Spain having any legal right over the treasure, it is a matter for the courts to decide. However, he added that it is not unusual for Spain to have a very self-serving and biased interpretation of international law. They already do on issues like Gibraltarian self-determination and the Treaty of Utrecht. Indeed, it is quite common for Spanish Governments to deploy the strategy of creating obstacles in totally unrelated areas unless they get their way.

“It would therefore not be suprising if Spain were trying to use the tripartite forum to obtain leverage over the Odyssey question.

“In the past Spain put pressure on European airlines willing to fly to Gibraltar by making it clear to them that if they did, as they are perfectly entitled to do, and have always been, Spain would see it as an unfriendly act and that this would be reflected in the treatment that those same airlines received in Spanish airports.

“Mr Bossano explained to the interviewer that this is the kind of behind the scenes pressure that Gibraltar has experienced at the hands of Spain. Therefore if Madrid does not get what they want, Spain is likely to pull out every stop against American interests, although it needs to be said that being nasty to Gibraltar is one thing and being nasty to the USA would be quite another.

“When asked for a view as to why the Spanish Government was taking the line that it was, the Leader of the Opposition said that he doubted that Spain would have taken the matter to heart if all Odyssey had found was a few clay amphoras, instead of millions of dollars worth of gold.

“The Opposition understands that the gold discovered by Odyssey, was provided with an import and re-export license to be able to transit through Gibraltar, in accordance with Gibraltar law, and Spain has no right to try to interfere with this process.”