Spain suing Odyssey...

[FISHEYE]

Its getting really bad when spain pirates ships in international waters.i wonder what they will do next.
Odyssey needs a new research/recovery ship like this one in the photo.give no quarter to spanish pirates!

 

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[jeff of pa]

Its getting really bad when spain pirates ships in international waters.i wonder what they will do next.
Odyssey needs a new research/recovery ship like this one in the photo.give no quarter to spanish pirates!

Yes I think we should bring it in to Escort Odyssey's
ships in & out of Gibraltar

What are the Penelties for Piracy on the High Seas these days ?

 

[Cablava]

At the moment, Spain has all the right in the world (Spain as a sovereign country can make their own laws on international waters, More significantly the UK could also do if they want to) as OMR has not proved anything other than they picked up a pile of stuff off the sea bed that they do not own and are not willing to give much detail about. All this bullXXXX regarding there correct procedure is exactly that.

They either do not know what ship it is, which is unlikely in this case, or they are unwilling to release the name of the ship as they would then not be in control any more, and would have to deal with the real owners, a good move on their part so far I guess, but sooner or later they will have to come to the party in order to get anything at all.

OMR are trying to write the norm into their PR for instance, 90% for the salvor is total rubbish just put in by them to make their case. Each case is on its own and not the norm, there is no norm. ( I have filed many salvage claims over the years, granted not on treasure ships but the law is basically the same, some you get lots of money for, others you just get paid). (you can see just 2 of the jobs I was involved with in the Salvage thread on the child board attached to the forum, one of them one of the American P3 Orion that crashed in Oman ( the contract value was $750,000.00 to pick it up and deliver it to the dock intact, of course in this case I knew who owned it). If you need more, I have years of it, many photos and a ton of bills from specialist marine lawyers in this field, so I get annoyed when people who should know better start saying that the norm is this , there is no norm in salvage).

But you do have to see who owns it. Just because it has been on the seabed for a few hundred years does not mean it was abandoned. There was no method of recovery at that depth until just a few years ago in reality. So abandonment will be difficult to prove in court. If your ship sinks in channel and you do not remove it then it will be removed for you at your cost, you can of course abandon it (not so easy these days) but that is a procedure and the same applys for a deep water wreck.

If you drop your gold chain the ocean at the marina, its still yours, its just on the sea bed until the local maintenance diver who picks it up. Of course he will normally keep it or sell it, but lawfully its still yours and if you find out it has been found then you can claim it back, it is not finders keepers.

This is game played by lawyers and specialists in this field. I for one would not like to play it with Governments. OMR have shown their hand on this one and have ignored their partners UK Government and Spain on what was supposed to be the richest ship wreck in their view the "HMS SUSSEX" in their view. If they had chose to liaise with the two governments on this find, and both government found they were in the clear then the investors would be picking up a huge pay day already, and the "Sussex" program would be awaiting its destiny.

But they have chosen a court case to gain what they have found (possession is 90% of the law, again bullXXX).

This is against what the "pro OMR" guys bought into, which was the "Sussex project". ( it is very unlikely OMR will have to prove they found the Sussex now, let alone that she actually contained any treasure in the first place).

The really sad thing is that salvage of deep water treasure or any treasure for that matter will be seriously affected for the future, OMR"s method has caused serious damage to the salvage world in general, do not expect an easy time when you are negotiating with a government after this. I am already feeling the difference on a UK wreck I have been working on for some time.

So all you guys who have made a small amount of cash from the stock, good luck to you thats investing on the stock market, personaly I like microsoft and the like but each to his own.

But this board is about treasure hunting and OMR have just made it a lot harder for us by their clandestine measures, implanted norms which do not exist. Its so sad, as had they done this right with this absolutely fantastic find of theirs, they could have come out on top, but greed has won their battle at our cost, and maybe in the long run their's to.

 

[wreckdiver1715]

Cablava, you make a good argument, and provide a unique perspective. I would like to conseed, that should the vessel "Black Swan" turn out to be a sovereign vessel, and or was recovered from another nations territorial waters, that Odyssey Marine was in the wrong, and should suffer the consequences of there actions, and forfeit all the treasure recovered.

I would, however like to hear your opinion on the way that you think Odyssey should have handled this case differently. And for the sake of this debate, lets assume that the "Black Swan" is not a sovereign vessel of any nation, and that it was indeed found in International Waters as Odyssey claims.

Tom

 

[ivan salis]

because he "thought" it ---not that was any thing was "offically" put out by anyone esp. odyssey-- I can say ---while at a cheese convention a guy said the moon was made of green cheese----does that mean the "convention" was saying the moon was made of green cheese---no----just that whacko who was there thinks it---when and only when odyssey dicides to make a "offical" press release should you pay heed ---till then ---its well heres what "I" think blah,blah,blah -----****by the way my "money" is on it being the "merchant royal" blah,blah,blah ---Ivan

 

[Amona]

Mr. Wreck1715 said

I will take your word for it since I don't read or speak Spanish

You don't have to, but I will make you the favor to traslate it

The link said (spanish)

"Volvo afirma que Odyssey no dijo la verdad sobre su actividad en aguas españolas"

Now in English:

"Volvo(automobile company) state Odyseey didn't say the true about its activities on Spanish's waters"

.......,Lier-Lier? the Movie,... now base on true story.

Now Spain has gone and resorted to piracy on the high seas

while they don't touch american water, you can sleep in peace.

Amona

 

[ivan salis]

nothing illegal about hiring a transiting crew---their just not going to have their friends and loved ones "held" hostage by spain as pawns in a chess game---since spain cannot "prove" anything without evidence---they will have to legally release the crew the vessel before long---since the current crew on it did not wrong legally and know nothing about the events prior to them being hired to bring the ship over---now the "burden of proof" is on spain to "prove" any misdeeds by odyssey or its crew or they will have to "release" the vessel---if the original crew was on board ---they would "be" held for questioning---"lies,lies"lies" they would say sweating the crew---after a long time with little to no sleep (normally "36 to 48 hours--- in some cases up to 72 hours) people begin to "babel" ---its called "sleep deprevation questioning" ---mess's with your head very badly ---in the "hands" of a person who knows his trade --he can get you to say just about anything he wants as you "babel" mindlessly----some very mean folks use this form of "questioning"-----Ivan

 

[spez401]

SWR
"people babble"? you do realize that this includes you? the only difference is that some of us are trying to offer something constructive.

steve

 

[spez401]

SWR..
this has nothing to do with pro- or anti- Odyssey. It has to do with the history of this post. I don't care what your opinion is (or anyone elses'... you're entitled to it). But, 2 things...1. an opinion that is based on incorrect facts is wrong, and 2. when I reread the posts, I noticed that many of your posts have a "dig" at one or more of the people who are participating here. They are offering information, looking for the same, and seeking to find out what happened.

You speak about "There is no need to point fingers at those whose opinion is different and try to belittle them for their beliefs." I agree. The difference is I am not attacking your credibility or intelligence. You seem to have a holier-than-thou attitude when it comes to your opinions, and you are doing exactly what you just said not to-- belittling others for their beliefs.

Go back and look at your posts on this topic. Look at them honestly and tell me that they are
1. constructive
2. not digging at or insulting other memebers

steve

 

[ivan salis]

thanks steve you understand what I'm saying with half a billion art stake---some folks tend to play "hardball" esp. --if in their hrearts they think its all theirs anyway---spain has a history of playing hardball with treasure hunters---and I personally think it was smart of odyssey not to allow it personnel to be "grabbed & sweated" by spain in attempt to gain leverage over them---govts all over the world (not just spain by any means) often use highly questionible to down right illegal tactics to get what they want--it was smart of odyssey not to "submit" their crews to the "hardball" type questioning methods used by govts to get what they want---it can be a "life - changing" event being questioned like that---its a very well liked tactic because it leaves no outward marks or no "proof" of abuse as to how they got them to "confess" --it works quite well--sadly even if your not guilty after 72 hours without sleep you get "dazed" and "confused" and can be easily led to say anything by "properly trained" people--trust me you don't want to know how I know this bit of information and I will not tell even if you ask me to ---I had sign "offical" papers long ago---I can get up to 5 years in prison if I "tell" about what "happened" at certain times in certain places and the events and people involved and I'm not doing 5 years for no one--- lets just say it was very ugly and rather painful bit of work that I assisted in many years ago and leave it at that--- P.S. Spain has done similar things in its past---the basque "terrorist" were not handled in a "freindly" manner and Franco diuring the "civil war" had nazi personnel assisting in "questioning" folks and the nazi were famous for their "methods" of extracting information---Ivan

 

[rgecy]

SWR..
this has nothing to do with pro- or anti- Odyssey. It has to do with the history of this post. I don't care what your opinion is (or anyone elses'... you're entitled to it). But, 2 things...1. an opinion that is based on incorrect facts is wrong, and 2. when I reread the posts, I noticed that many of your posts have a "dig" at one or more of the people who are participating here. They are offering information, looking for the same, and seeking to find out what happened.

You speak about "There is no need to point fingers at those whose opinion is different and try to belittle them for their beliefs." I agree. The difference is I am not attacking your credibility or intelligence. You seem to have a holier-than-thou attitude when it comes to your opinions, and you are doing exactly what you just said not to-- belittling others for their beliefs.

Go back and look at your posts on this topic. Look at them honestly and tell me that they are
1. constructive
2. not digging at or insulting other memebers

steve

Steve,

Be carefull, SWR will say you are part of the clique!

All this banter about Odyssey is mind blowing. We all like to speculate what will happen but the truth is, we are spectators, and have to sit back and watch for now. I have no idea where they found the treasure and I am sure most people here don't either.

All I know, is that I find it hard to believe they would remove artifacts from anyones territorial waters. They know the ramifications and damage it would do to this industry. Not to mention landing them in court for years to come.

If it is proven that Odyssey took artifacts from Spanish waters without permission, they will certainly suffer the consequences (as will the rest of the industry). But, if they did this legitimately, hopefully they can finally put Spain in their place.

Like I said, as for now, we are all spectators as this unfolds! I hope for the best, and trust that Odyssey has done the right thing!

 

[ivan salis]

I for one am sure odyssey would not be so foolish to do anything so blantly illegal---but as I freely admit---I own no stock in them and thats just my personal veiw on the subject---wait and see--- the truth of what happened shall come out ---it has to its too "big" and out in the open for it not to---Ivan

 

[jeff of pa]

this has nothing to do with pro- or anti- Odyssey.

steve

I don't think this ever had to do with pro- or anti- Odyssey.

I think It's a pro- or anti- Treasure Hunter thing.

& yes I do take it Personally, because of this.

 

[jeff k]

Gibraltar Chronicle...

Ship remains in port of Algeciras
GUARDIA CIVIL SEARCH OF OCEAN ALERT CONTINUES
• Britain and Spain exchange diplomatic communications

By Brian Reyes

Guardia Civil officers continued to inspect the treasure hunting vessel Ocean Alert in the port of Algeciras yesterday, as controversy surrounding the ship generated further political reaction. They boarded at 11.30am and spent most of the day searching through the vessel.

Identity documents have been returned to the crew and no one has been arrested, though computers and other personal items remain in the possession of the Spanish authorities.

The Ocean Alert is detained in Algeciras as part of a criminal investigation into possible crimes against Spanish heritage laws.

The vessel was stopped by Spain on Thursday 3.5 miles off Gibraltar and was taken to Algeciras under threat of arrest.

Spain says US company Odyssey Marine Exploration has treasure that Madrid believes could have been retrieved from Spanish waters or from a Spanish galleon which sank in the Atlantic during the colonial period.

The Ocean Alert was stopped under a court order issued by a judge in La Linea who is investigating a possible breach of the law. The company denies the allegations.

Beyond the rights and wrongs of the legal wrangle surrounding the ship, it is the location in which it was stopped that has generated much of the reaction from governments in the UK, Spain and Gibraltar.

Spain said the ship was intercepted in Spanish territorial waters and that the Guardia Civil was acting in accordance with Spanish law. Odyssey maintains the Ocean Alert was in international waters and was boarded illegally.

On Thursday, in a note verbale to the Spanish Government, the UK backed the company’s position and said waters beyond 3 miles off Gibraltar were international waters.

Yesterday Madrid replied in similar fashion. In a note verbale sent to the British embassy in Madrid, the Spanish Government firmly reiterated its longstanding position on Gibraltar’s waters.

Spain believes that under the Treaty of Utrecht Gibraltar has no territorial waters beyond the port limits, though in practice it respects the three miles of sea claimed by the UK around the Rock.

Despite the intervention at sea on Thursday, all sides appear keen to defuse the political row and prevent it from escalating.

A Spanish official at the Foreign Affairs Ministry was quoted anonymously as saying the situation “has not escalated to the level of international conflict”, adding that the Ocean Alert was stopped on the basis of a court order.

The British Government was considering its response to the Spanish position.

Yesterday Odyssey was awaiting the outcome of the inspection, which it has been told could take up to three days.

“It is anticipated that the vessel will be permitted to leave at the conclusion of the inspection,” the company said in a statement late Thursday night.

Company executives are frustrated with the way the situation has unfolded. Prior to sailing from Gibraltar, they believed an agreement had been reached with the Spanish judicial authorities that the ship would only be boarded at sea, and not taken into port.

“At this point, Odyssey is assuming that the action on the part of the Guardia Civil is a miscommunication between Spanish authorities,” the company said.

Last May Odyssey said it legally recovered gold and silver coins worth an estimated $500 million from a colonial-era wreck code-named Black Swan at a location in the Atlantic Ocean which it refuses to disclose.

That treasure haul lies at the root of the present row with Spain.

The company has so far refused to identify the location or name of the wreck for security and legal reasons.

On July 23 it is due to provide additional information as requested by Spain to the US Federal Court judge handling claims over the treasure haul.

This additional information will contain archaeological reports and details of three deep-ocean sites located outside the territorial waters of any country on which Odyssey properly filed Warrants of Arrest in the U.S. Federal Court sitting in admiralty jurisdiction, the company said.

Odyssey has also provided a 109-page affidavit to various Spanish ministries and agencies detailing relations between the company and Spain going back nearly a decade.

The affidavit provides some details on the Black Swan, though it does not identify the name of the wreck or its location.

“We always attempt to work with appropriate governments on shipwreck projects in which they may have an interest and look forward to addressing any issues of claims or legal jurisdiction related to the “Black Swan” in the proper venue, which is US Federal Court,” said Odyssey co-founder Greg Stemm in the statement.

CRUZ SAYS ACTION FALLS SHORT OF “PIRACY”

Meanwhile the Progressive Democratic Party has issued a statement on the incident. Party spokesman Nick Cruz said: “The behaviour of the Guardia Civil in boarding the Ocean Alert and arresting her presumably on instructions from a Spanish Court falls just short of piracy and in all the circumstances an affront on the rights of all seafarers going about their lawful business.”

“The fact that the vessel was in international waters 3.5 miles off Europa Point seems to have been ignored by Spanish authorities and case should be cause for concern not just to Gibraltar but also to the International community all of which use the Straits of Gibraltar for shipping and related international trade.”

“International law prevents arrests of a vessel in international waters unless its flag state in this case Panama grants permission. There is nothing to suggest that permission has been sought or granted and so one can only assume that the Spanish Authorities wrongly perceive waters off Gibraltar and outside the territorial limits of Gibraltar waters to be Spanish. The reported communications between the Captain of the Ocean Alert and the Guardia Civil suggest exactly that.”

“The International Community and specifically the Panamanian (flag state) and British and Moroccan Governments (whose waters neighbour the international waters in question) should express their view in no uncertain terms that the Spanish action is wrong in law and therefore the detention of the vessel’s crew for several hours is unlawful as is the continued detention of the vessel. The Spanish Government should explain the situation make an immediate unreserved apology to all concerned and release the vessel.”

 

[Trez]

Finding a treasure galleon is hard enough...one would imagine.
to actually identify her...that's even harder.
Just look at the 1715 Fleet...10 ships went down, how many are positively identified or who can prove w/o name who actually held ownership of them ? I mean positive identification...

There would seem to be some interesting ways to beat the "laws" or at even better...have the Country which now lays now claim (Spain) to prove that any law were actually broke.
I would think this to be could become quite a task...I could only imagine the possibilities.

Trez

 

[Peg Leg]

Will the future Treasure Hunting Ships/Boats have to carry Tomohawk or Cruise Missiles with a dozen Chain Guns and have a crew of Merc's in order to protect what they recover in International waters?
Sure hope not.
Peg Leg

 

[wreckdiver1715]

All, Please do keep on topic and refrain from personal attacks, we are getting close to crossing the line AGAIN!
As the Moderator, I will decide when a post should be removed or edited. If I remove a post that is a judgment call on my part. Until then we can continue this debate without resorting to personal attacks. However, don't confuse being challenged to back up your statements with facts as a personal attack.

 

[Peg Leg]

Just wondering<
If a U.S. owned ship that is in International waters is stopped and boarded and forced to enter another port would the U.S. Navy not be called on to respond.
When this SHIP was taken no one really had any idea what was going to happen and still don't or does this only apply to ships that are registered in the U.S.
What is Panama going to do send a few row boats loaded with local police.
I know what PANAMA can do and no doubt may have have even given it some thought.
What if PANAMA raised its price on anything being shipped through the PANAMA CANAL that was connected to SPAIN or better yet STOP all shipping through the Canal of ANYTHING coming from or going to Spain.
There are ways to do PAY BACKS .
Peg Leg

 

[Amona]

I regret everything here reference to Odyseey and the $500M. I'm very sad for all insulting committed here among the pro-Odyseey guys and anti-Odyseey guys.This war is over. Odyseey lost this battle and I thank to God for this.

Here in this issue there is a common denominator,the denominator is "SPAIN", not Odyseey, not because Spain had made something wrong,they're defending theirs rights, theirs properties, theirs history and anybody would do it. The issue here is the existing hate against Spain,against everything that come from that country. I understand always had existed for hundred years. Now this company goes to Spain to find treasure underwaters without respect to this country, without consideration to others interest, lack of respect, just , because Gibraltar back them up in all they're doing. Everybody here are treasure hunter, land or sea. Everybody here knows the way that Odyseey procedured to find that big treasure is not the proper and correct way to do it, but people here in Tr's net justify it because it was in Spain.

I bet if all this scenario was happened in the English channel or North Sea close to Germany there was other story to tell. I know Odyseey never ever had procedured the same way that they did in Spain waters.

Since now on, due to Odyseey, any american company want to find a shipwreck in Spain Waters absolutely will be deny any permission, thanks to Odyseey, thanks for theirs performance over there, if don't, it will be under strictly supervision, again, thanks to Odyseey.

Amona

 

[Peg Leg]

My Opinion:
I think that this TOPIC needs to come to an end. There are some very hard feeling being built here.
Peg Leg