Ships of the 1715 fleet

[ivan salis]

the griffon survived the storm (the only vessel of the 1715 fleet to do so) --she broke away from the fleet before the storm hit the fleet and sailed differently which allowed her to miss the storm --she returned to the port of BREST ,FRANCE. --thus having not sunk -- her type , size and guns carried are moot , since you will not find her "wreckage" as part of the treasure fleet.--this is also why "treasure hunters?" talk about her so little other than to say --she survived.

Ubilla';s smallish patache type vessel #5 was a smallish galara class English vessel - of the -balandra build type == in English its name was mari galara ( in Spanish the maria / galara --name and type) echeverz took her along with the "French prize "EL Ciervo"(the stag) and the dutch prize --known as the "San Miguel" -- the English prizewas dispatch directly to Havana and was sold to Ubilla in cuba who was in need of a smallish messeanger type vessel.--he renamed the vessel similar to his main vessel -- using a Spanish "religious name" a highly common practice of the rtime.

 

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[Jolly Mon]

Greeting Jolly Mon and thank you for posting that book entry. That is exactly the type of stuff I am looking for. Yes, that confirms the identity of Le Griffon. This definitely confirms that this ship was the 500 tons frigate by this name. Awesome!!! Thanks.

Glad to be of some help. Le Griffon sure sounds like a frigate. I never thought about her much, but always assumed for some reason she was a smaller vessel.

She was a big ship. So she was potentially a very fast ship. Not being overloaded as most of the other fleet vessels probably were, she could possibly make 2, even 3 times the speed of the main flota.

I would love to hear what Chevalier d'Aire had to say about the journey from Havana when he arrived in France---the actual number of ships in the flota when it left Havana, whether any Spanish ships broke away when or shortly after he did, what course he set, what he observed of the weather conditions, etc.

 

[jorgeproctor]

PhipsFolly:

Thank you for sharing that information about the "Cannon Pile" Wreck. I find it interesting that this site includes "a lot of Lima mint coins" and "raw emeralds." These are two items that you normally expect to find on a Tierra Firme ship. So thanks for sharing that.

 

[jorgeproctor]

Greetings Ivan and thanks for the post. I agree that most treasure hunters have no interest on a ship that did not sink. But, in this case, I am interested on the story of the fleet itself, and for this purpose I cannot ignore the Le Griffon, just because it was fortunate enough to have made it safe to port in one piece. If anything, the less that is discussed about Le Griffon, the more I am curious about the ship and its mission. I know that in previous fleets, other French vessels were utilized as escorts. Was this the case here? I mean, we are talking about a big ship (a military type French frigate), for which important Spanish VIP passengers are said to have boarded in Havana. Although Le Griffon and its story will not tell us anything about where the missing ships are at, it definitely fills in a missing gap to the story of the fleet itself, and in this case, one that seems not to have been told before.

Regarding "Ubilla's smallish patache type vessel #5," Thank you for confirming this as being a "galara class English vessel - of the -balandra build type." I noticed that you include that its English name was Mari Galara. Question is, do we know what is the source for this information (where was it published, or what is the archaic reference)? Also, on another note, do you happen to know where the name of the San Miguel de Exelsis came from? I figured that if this was not the original name of the English prize, and it was not the complete name of the San Miguel, as it is mentioned as a separate vessel from the San Miguel that went back to Havana to be loaded with tobacco, then what vessel was this?

 

[jorgeproctor]

Jolly Mon:
Yes, that is exactly why I am so happy you posted the information you did. I have to admit that in the past I had also assumed that the Le Griffon was a smaller vessel. But confirming this as a French frigate does bring to mind a lot more questions, as I know that in previous fleets the French provided vessels as escorts, and I am now curious to know what was the true function of the Le Griffon. The authorization for this vessel to travel with the fleet might have not just been as innocent as this vessel traveling with the fleet under its protection, as it could be that the fleet was benefiting from its presence (heck, at 500-tons, she was heavier than all other vessels in the combined convoy except for the Nuestra Señora del Carmen)...Just a thought.


Like you, I am very much curious to know what "Chevalier" (Chevalier was the French word used for a Captain of a Navy Ship) D'Aire (this being the last name of the captain, his first name was Antoine), had to say. Anything that can add details to the story, I am all for it...

 

[Jolly Mon]

Jolly Mon:
Yes, that is exactly why I am so happy you posted the information you did. I have to admit that I had also assumed that the Le Griffon was a smaller vessel. But confirming this as a French Frigate does bring to mind a lot more questions, as I know that in previous fleets the French provide vessels as escorts, and I am now curious to know what was the true function of the Le Griffon. The authorization for this vessel to travel with the fleet might have not just been as innocent as the fleet providing protection to this ship, as the fleet benefiting from its presence (heck, at 500-tons, she was heavier than all other vessels in the combined convoy except for the Nuestra Señora del Carmen...Just a thought.


Like you, I am very much curious to know what "Chevalier" (Chevalier was the French word used for a Captain of a Navy Ship) D'Aire (this being the last name of the captain, his first name was Antoine), had to say. Anything that can add details to the story, I am all for it...

Wow. Thinking about it a little more...a French ship of 44 guns and a 250 man crew was a French warship. There is no way a merchant ship would have carried that number of men or that armament.

Le Griffon was possibly not compelled to sail with the fleet...but possibly asked, maybe even hired to sail with the fleet...

I am not normally a conspiracy theorist, but maybe Le Griffon was specifically protecting a ship or ships within the fleet. Perhaps ships that broke the main convoy prior to the storm...

Anyway, a French warship being forced to sail with the treasure flota seems almost unbelievable.

 

[mad4wrecks]

The answers to many of your questions may be soon in coming. A good friend of mine is finishing her book on the complete history of the 1715 fleet. This is a daunting task, 7 years in the making I believe. Using plenty of archival documentation from various sources around the world, the names and locations of all the ships (the actual number may surprise you), is addressed in great detail. I am excitedly looking forward to this book myself.


Tom

 

[Denniss]

The answers to many of your questions may be soon in coming. A good friend of mine is finishing her book on the complete history of the 1715 fleet. This is a daunting task, 7 years in the making I believe. Using plenty of archival documentation from various sources around the world, the names and locations of all the ships (the actual number may surprise you), is addressed in great detail. I am excitedly looking forward to this book myself. Tom

How long do you think it will be, before she publishes the book

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Jolly,
Folklore and stories....

Research has always shown that the Griffon was part of the convoy. I am not sure where the story of "it happened to be in port and forced to wait and sail with the fleet" originally came from but with the Spanish dignitaries that sailed on her she was definitely part of the overall plan.

 

[Jolly Mon]

I can't wait for that book !

I wonder why Le Griffon's "passeport" to enter/trade in Vera Cruz in 1712 was from the Queen of Spain? This would have been Philip V's 1st wife, Maria Luisa.

I also wonder if this "passeport" had anything to do with Le Griffon being in Havana and sailing with the Plate Fleet in 1715 or if it was arranged later ? (Maria Luisa died in 1714).

I have only a fraction of the knowledge of some of the members of this forum in regards 1715 fleet matters, but I am going to make a fool of myself and say that 15 ships left Havana with the Flota.

I can't wait for that book !

 

[jorgeproctor]

Tom,

Thank you for the heads-up and please keep us informed as to when the book is published. I know for one that I will probably be among the first in line to get a copy...

 

[ivan salis]

there was a high ranking official upon the griffon --a french ambassador * -- as standard policy of the time * about a week before the fleet sailed and two weeks after the treasure fleet sailed the port of Havana was "sealed" for security reasons to prevent "leaks" (you could enter the port but you could not "leave" the port)-- so basically the griffon had two "choices" sail with the fleet as it left Havana --or wait 2 weeks so she could then "legally" depart .

 

[jorgeproctor]

That is good to know Ivan. Do you know what was the name of the French Ambassador, and also, does this information appear on a published book or article. Would love to read more about the details behind Le Griffon and its business in the Americas.

 

[ivan salis]

there is a book "funnel of gold" --that has a lot of very interesting info on the 1715 fleet -- its a very good book written by a very smart man .

 

[Au_Dreamers]

The Grifon possibly sailed the gulf crossing with Ubilla.

If the Governor of Cartagena was onboard and it sat low in the water because of its cargo I would venture to guess it wasn't happenstance that it was in Havana.

 

[grossmusic]

Nuestra Señora de Regla had 50 cannons (and yes, it is "de Regla" and not "de la Regla", according to the archives - not a typo)

Finally - someone answers my question! I've read many versions of that name (Regala mostly). Thank you.

As for Griffon... It often is found in archives by looking up keyword Grisson or Grison but is mostly referred to as Grifon. It definitely (as stated herein) made it back to France. It wasn't really part of the fleet. It was just forced to sail with them for political & safety reasons. I'm too tired right now to cite references, but here is basic info I have on Grifon:

June 1714 Grifon was in Veracruz (as was Ubilla)

July 1715 Grifon was chartered by Torres (Cuba's governor in Havana) to carry some of his goods with the fleet back to Spain

Grifon was believed by some to be an informant to British Gov. Hamilton (Jamaica) - very likely considering all the shenanigans he was involved in

Echeverz & Ubilla objected to Grifon coming with them...causing more delays

D'Aire was no happier than the others to be forced to travel with them

D'Aire abandoned the fleet two days after departure

The moment D'Aire arrived in Brest (unaware of the fleet's fate) he lodged a complaint (to cover his butt legally) against Echeverz, Torres & others for preventing the Grifon from sailing on her intended schedule and forcing her to accompany the fleet

D'Aire's story was a bit obscured by the events of the day after he arrived: King Louis XIV died

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Registro de ida del navío 'Nuestra Señora de Regla, San José y San Francisco Javier', de doscientas cuarenta y ocho toneladas, maestre Antonio Carcau, que salió, con la Flota de Juan de Ubilla, para Nueva España.

Nuestra Señora de Regla, navío
Maestre de navío
Generales de la Flota de Nueva España
Nueva España
Carcau, Antonio
Ubilla, Juan de

 

[Salvor6]

Originally Posted by jorgeproctor
Nuestra Señora de Regla had 50 cannons (and yes, it is "de Regla" and not "de la Regla", according to the archives - not a typo)"

Carl Claussen lists it as: Nuestra Senora de la Regala, San Dimas y San Francisco San Xavier. 471 tons, owner; Gen. Ubilla, Capt; D. Luis de Villalobos, master; D. Bartholome de Alodadea. Is that right?

The Regala was the Capitana of the fleet. The general consensus is that the "Sandy Point" wreck is the Regala. How come so little has been salvaged from the Sandy Point wreck? Where is it?

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Pete,
I think you're mixing up sites...

Regla is either Cabin wreck or Corrigan's ??

The Sandy Point wreck is right where it's suppose to be, just not enough people work it.

 

[Bum Luck]

D'Aire abandoned the fleet two days after departure The moment D'Aire arrived in Brest (unaware of the fleet's fate) he lodged a complaint (to cover his butt legally) against Echeverz, Torres & others for preventing the Grifon from sailing on her intended schedule and forcing her to accompany the fleet

It's hard for me to believe that he, as an experienced captain, was unaware of the fleet's fate, or at the least that there was a hurricane behind him. If he was chartered by Torres to carry some of his goods back to Spain, he had to have landed there to unload them and avoid the obvious and even compelling question of "Where is the fleet?", and then slide out of port.

Would there have been Spanish repercussions upon filing his complaint, although I realize he had to (just a bit too pat a story)?

I'm with jorgeproctor; what was a French warship doing there in the first place? Was there any subsequent history on D'Aire that could shed some light on this?