Season 4

[gazzahk]

Dunfield put the flood tunnels myth to rest.

Dunfeild did much but this is not one of the things he did.... There is still no explanation that fits with the natural environment yet offered that explains the water source at 100 ft

Read this article to outline the problem The Blockhouse Blog - The Oak Island Compendium Does science*support*a man-made flood tunnel on Oak Island?

So any theory on how the 100ft water got to the early treasure hunters needs to be able to explain the points raised by the engineer.

I do not believe that a man made flood tunnel existed but some type of cavity/tunnel to the ocean certainly does. This should not exist at that depth in that type of soil according to the Engineer interviewed.

JW:* The way I see it, it does not matter whether there was a Money Pit or not. When the first Searchers dug down about 100 feet and were flooded, the water had to have come from a Flood Tunnel. It does not make any sense at all, for a man-made Flood Tunnel to exist without there being a Money Pit that was dug to at least 100 feet. And it does not make much sense either, to have a Flood Tunnel unless the Money Pit went somewhat deeper than 100 feet. So I believe there was a Money Pit and a Flood Tunnel. How else can anyone explain the water?

 

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[gazzahk]

gazzahk...

What facts of the beach don't support this theory?

Ok if you wish to revisit this. There are no facts about the beach that support salt making. It is pure speculation. There is not a single piece of evidence that salt was ever produced on oak island.

 

[Roadhse2]

Nope, I was just curious...

No boxes of salt laying around on the beach, that's true...

And yes, speculation based on some facts...Mainly a fishing company owned the whole island in 1753, owned all the fishing rights in the area and were shipping their product in two ways, dried and salted, to preserve it. Would need a place to process the fish (island they bought) and also a place to get salt, two choices, buy it from Europe, or make it themselves. In a way that had been used for hundreds of years all over, and is still used today, and they had easy access to do themselves. At virtually no cost. That's it, the mechanics of doing it were in Smith's Cove when excavated...so not a far leap to connect the two...

Though as of yet, besides flood tunnels, no one has offered a theory, or speculation, on what else it could have been used for that ties it all together as well as a salt works...

I'm open to other uses, no one has offered any that combine what we know is/was there...nor supporting facts for a need.

 

[Roadhse2]

I have a question for those that do believe the flood tunnel theory, that is all it is as none have been found...

What kind of trigger mechanism was used to cause the shaft to flood when it was dug into? No one has been able to stop this flow of water since then so far, so how did they keep it from filling a shaft at that time? Even digging from the cove, or wherever, to the shaft, what kept the water from entering the shaft until the men triggered it by lifting up a rock?

Just curious if anyone has an idea how this would work...

 

[gazzahk]

In a way that had been used for hundreds of years all over, and is still used today, and they had easy access to do themselves. At virtually no cost...

Look my friend I do not wish to be picky. But this is just not true. There is nothing about the beach at Smiths cove that is in anyway consistent with examples of salt making elsewhere. It is a sloped drained beach. It is a cold climate that is frozen over for much of the year. It is a wet climate with lots of rain. It has a low average temperature that does not allow for significant water evaporation (even the swamp shows this) .The area inside the coffer dam was not flat it has pits, raised areas, holes etc

Yes salt was a required commodity that was easy to make ie boil (which we agree) but the physical evidence of the beach and the cove do not support that this would of allowed salt to be concentrated before boiling. There would of been a lot of cost in building the dam, building the beach and maintain it all through the winter months.

The has not been a single historian that has written about Oak island that has ever even considered this theory because there is no evidence for it. It was pure speculation by the author of the article. He offers no evidence at all to support his theory re Oak island.

I agree that we do not know the reason why the beach was built. But that does not mean we simply replace one questionable theory with an even more questionable set of speculation.

I could just as easy speculate that a rich person/general (Naval stores theory) wanted a private beach to sunbake on. So order his solders to make him one. This theory does not come true simply because the flood tunnel theory is not true.

 

[gazzahk]

I have a question for those that do believe the flood tunnel theory, that is all it is as none have been found...

What kind of trigger mechanism was used to cause the shaft to flood when it was dug into? No one has been able to stop this flow of water since then so far, so how did they keep it from filling a shaft at that time? Even digging from the cove, or wherever, to the shaft, what kept the water from entering the shaft until the men triggered it by lifting up a rock?

Just curious if anyone has an idea how this would work...

Guessing here (as I do not support the theory) they dug around the entrance of the tunnel so that the tunnel went maybe 1/3 of the way into the shaft. So if people dug straight down they would dig into the tunnel. But if they dug a round that level they would miss the tunnel and not flood there pit.

To me the bigger problem (but very good point) is how would the treasure hiders ever recover there treasure once the trap had been sprung.

 

[Roadhse2]

Well...we'll have to agree to disagree...no need for a non sloping beach, or smooth bottom or anything else...this way of making salt was used in the UK as well, another lousy climate area and further north, some report as far as Norway, so I won't use that to rule it out...What maintenance would an open lagoon need during the winter?

Experts? the only theory I have seen from "experts" is it was a flood tunnel...Dunfield proved that wrong.

So until someone else has something better...I'm stickin'...if you come up with something that fits all the parameters, i would like to know..

By the way...the book just got here today...looks like an interesting read..

 

[gazzahk]

By the way...the book just got here today...looks like an interesting read..

Cool... My wife is away at the moment I am hoping the book has arrived and is sitting in her office. I am really looking forward to reading it.

I am really enjoying the intelligent discussions on topics that are raised in this forum. I have learnt heaps about OI even if the show is now pretty poor.

 

[Robot]

You May Be Speaking French...But It Is Greek To Me!

And yes, speculation based on some facts...Mainly a fishing company owned the whole island in 1753

I "Must Question" your Inference that someone other than the French owned the island prior to 1762 which is when I believe the Oak Island Mystery was "Constructed".

French and Indian War

​

The process began in 1755, after the British captured Fort Beauséjour and began the expulsion of the Acadians with the Bay of Fundy Campaign. Between six and seven thousand Acadians were expelled from Nova Scotia[SUP][35][/SUP]to the lower British American colonies.[SUP][36][/SUP] Some Acadians eluded capture by fleeing deep into the wilderness or into French-controlled Canada. The Quebec town of L'Acadie (now a sector of Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu) was founded by expelled Acadians.[SUP][37][/SUP] After the Siege of Louisbourg (1758), a second wave of the expulsion began with the St. John River Campaign, Petitcodiac River Campaign, Gulf of St. Lawrence Campaign and the Île Saint-Jean Campaign.

​

Any pretense that France might maintain or regain control over the remnants of Acadia came to an end with the fall of Montreal in 1760

The British did not commence selling the lots of Oak Island until 1762.

 

[NewAge]

There is still no explanation that fits with the natural environment yet offered that explains the water source at 100 ft

The Windsor limestone layer at 140' seems like a pretty good explanation to me.Added with the fact Dunfield ran tests that showed most of the water coming into the money pit came from almost a mile away from the ocean and not the sea. We can also add in how many other natural water channels have been found around this limestone / bedrock layer in this general area of Nova Scotia.

Dunfield is not alone there have been a couple other experts in this area that basically agreed with his findings.

I read your link and do not know anything about this John Wannacott and will have to look further into this but would have liked a few pointed questions in this interview to be followed up on that were not.He claims the glacial till was impervious.I can agree with that.

BUT once they started digging down into the money pit and removing this glacial till material above the fissures in the Bedrock or limestone.Weren't they removing the material that was holding the water back to begin with.Once they dug down deep enough and removed enough of the impervious material and the water could get through wouldn't the hole flood.And isn't this exactly what happened?

Nothing he says answers this question and apparently the interviewer didn't know enough to ask it.

"When the first Searchers dug down about 100 feet and were flooded, the water had to have come from a Flood Tunnel."......JW

Sorry but Dunfield has conducted a scientific test that disproves that statement and other experts agreed with his findings.

 

[Roadhse2]

"The first known persons to definitely take up land on Oak Island were the New York fish agents John Gifford and Richard Smith who were granted three islands in Mahone Bay in 1753, including the whole of Oak Island (7). There is evidence they used Oak Island as a base for their fishing operation off the coast of Nova Scotia in the 1750s"

While this was taken from Dennis Kings article, because it was easy to get to by me....there are also other articles stating the same thing....1753....You can search for them if you like, or not, pc running slow and until I fix it, I am not going to go dig around looking for this stuff....It makes no real difference to anything about the treasure and is of little interest to anyone else....

 

[NewAge]

What kind of trigger mechanism was used to cause the shaft to flood when it was dug into? No one has been able to stop this flow of water since then so far, so how did they keep it from filling a shaft at that time? Even digging from the cove, or wherever, to the shaft, what kept the water from entering the shaft until the men triggered it by lifting up a rock

You really have to bend the laws of physics to make this flood tunnel theory work.Actually I think you have to throw all the known laws out and create new ones to make the flood tunnel theory credible

I was really hoping they were going to dump a bunch of corn down a hole somewhere to stop the flow like that one clown proposed on the TV show.

 

[gazzahk]

Sorry but Dunfield has conducted a scientific test that disproves that statement and other experts agreed with his findings.

Can you show me a source for this claim. I have never seen anything which supports this statement.

 

[gazzahk]

I now have some time to respond to your points raised in more detail. Firstly let me make clear. I do not believe there was a man-made flood tunnel on Oak Island. I do believe that the source of the water at 100ft must be due to some natural cavity/tunnel in the glacial till. I would truly love someone to be able to demonstrate why the Engineer in the report is incorrect.

The Windsor limestone layer at 140' seems like a pretty good explanation to me. Added with the fact Dunfield ran tests that showed most of the water coming into the money pit came from almost a mile away from the ocean and not the sea….. Dunfield is not alone there have been a couple other experts in this area that basically agreed with his findings.….

As stated in the other post please show some supporting evidence for this claim. Dunfeild never found the source of the water that is why he was unable to block it off. This is why we still do not know the source and people are still looking for it. If Dunfeild proved something then it is proved. What are you claiming the Engineer is making up lies?

We can also add in how many other natural water channels have been found around this limestone / bedrock layer in this general area of Nova Scotia.

The issue is not the water at 170ft from the limestone/bedrock this is very clearly from the ocean. The issue is the water at 100 foot nowhere near the limestone/bedrock

I read your link and do not know anything about this John Wannacott and will have to look further into this

As shown in the article he is a well respected and awarded Engineer with first hand experience of the area

Mr. Wonnacott (he prefers John) began his career as a military engineer in the Canadian Armed Forces, overseeing engineering and construction projects, and rising to the rank of Major by the time he finished serving. He has worked as a field engineer on such private sector projects as the Alaska Highway Gas Pipeline project, and managed construction projects for JD Irving Limited. He was awarded the Canadian Council of Professional Engineers’ Award for Engineering Excellence for his work as Deputy Project Manager for the Diavik Diamond Mines north of Yellowknife, Canada. He met David Tobias and Les MacPhie about 20 years ago, and this led to a deep interest in all aspects of Oak Island. David Tobias and his wife Pearl became his friends, and he spent many hours reading documents, talking over theories and making new investigation plans with Les and David. Back around 2000, John conducted an excavation at Oak Island, which resulted in the recovery of several pieces of the U-shaped structure built at Smith’s Cove. In recent years, John has done some work to assist the Lagina brothers in their on-going investigations, and he is currently working with Les MacPhie and Danny Hennigar on an important Oak Island project.

As to this claim

BUT once they started digging down into the money pit and removing this glacial till material above the fissures in the Bedrock or limestone.Weren't they removing the material that was holding the water back to begin with.Once they dug down deep enough and removed enough of the impervious material and the water could get through wouldn't the hole flood.And isn't this exactly what happened?

The water never came up from the bottom it came through the side walls. Even when the previous episde they ruptured Cahpels sons vault this was at 140ft well beloow the area where the water first flooded the original diggers. Chappel could not of dug mine shafts at 140+ ft if this area was full of water. The water at 100ft did not come from lower down as all the lower down digs would have been under water. This is one of the points John makes in his interview.

Sorry but Dunfield has conducted a scientific test that disproves that statement and other experts agreed with his findings.

Please show evidence of the ‘proof’ and the other experts that agreed. (I would love to see that John is wrong as it would make my understanding of OI much better). But please do not make claims that are not supported by the evidence as it just adds to peoples confusion over the issue.

 

[marticus]

Well spoken

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

 

[n2mini]

"The first known persons to definitely take up land on Oak Island were the New York fish agents John Gifford and Richard Smith who were granted three islands in Mahone Bay in 1753, including the whole of Oak Island (7). There is evidence they used Oak Island as a base for their fishing operation off the coast of Nova Scotia in the 1750s"

While this was taken from Dennis Kings article, because it was easy to get to by me....there are also other articles stating the same thing....1753....You can search for them if you like, or not, pc running slow and until I fix it, I am not going to go dig around looking for this stuff....It makes no real difference to anything about the treasure and is of little interest to anyone else....

I'm not saying the info you found is not true, but I hate hearing all over the Oak Island Threads, "there is evidence" of this that or the other. Kinda a vague statement when trying to prove your point on anything without stating the evidence. I'm guessing what your reading doesn't flat out say "they owned a fishing company on Oak Island" but did some fishing or something like that.. So then someone takes that and runs with it as a big fishing business that consumed the whole island etc etc... or maybe it does say they owned a fishing company but no mention of it being on Oak Island, and they assumed it was on Oak Island.. and the Money Pit is where they dumped the guts and heads as to not attract sharks in the water..

 

[Roadhse2]

n2mini.......

Nothing I post about Smith's Cove has anything to do about the Money Pit or even if there was or was not a treaure on Oak Island, I don't believe the two were connected in any way. The more things that have been claimed and NOT ever found, or like the flood tunnel from Smith's Cove, proven by Dunfield to not exist, the less I believe in any treasure having ever been there. The things claimed to have been found that have all been 'lost' in one way or another, do not add to believing in any way.

What we do know is there were structures built in and around Smith's Cove, the physical evidence of those structures has been well documented. That is what I am looking at, how they could be used and to what purpose, why they would be needed in the first place. I am more than happy to look at anyone else's ideas on why they were built, I am not closed minded in thinking the salt plant is the right answer, only in it being the most plausible with what we now know. The circumstantial evidence of the fishing company owning the island as well as the fishing rights in the area, their need for salt as part of their day to day business, only lend to that plausibility. 100% proof? of course not, as nothing short of seeing actual photo's of it in operation would satisfy everyone, and even then some would say, nope, BUT offer no other plausible ideas as to what these structures not only were used for, but why there was a need for them in the first place.

Dennis Kings article has been linked to many times in this thread, few have bothered to read it apparently, wanting others to do ALL of the research for them, so they then can discount it with out ever having bothered to do look for those answers to questions they have with their own research.

Yes, there are other 'proof's' of the whole fishing industry in the area from the 1580's forward, easily found if one looks...Yes, the New York fishing company is known to have owned Oak Island in 1753, several sources state as much....common sense at some point has to be applied to what they would use the island for in their fishing business and what part Smith's Cove would play in that.

I believe it to be a salt works, as the need and what we DO know, points that way more than any other for me. I am not trying to convince anyone it IS a salt works. You are welcome to do some research and come up with your own reasons of what it could be. As stated, I would be glad to see other ideas, none have been forthcoming, only statements that is IS not a salt works, based on....nothing.

I also have stated this pc is working so slow I am not willing to spend hours refinding the information, that I have researched, to provide links to those that say it can't be, while offering NO idea as to what it could be. Two reasons for this, one it can never be proven 100% either way, no matter what links are posted (that most won't even bother to go read as they are long drawn out articles) and so is a waste of time, mine. Two, from the research I have done, not only into the physical items known to be in Smith's Cove, but also into the history of salt making in this time period in all parts of the world and how it would apply to Oak Island and the fishing industry there...I have satsified myself that this is what Smith's Cove was being used for...Nothing I could post would change the minds of those that disagree, and that is fine, that is not my intent.

I was hoping for different views, not just the naysayers, so far, nothing.

So with that, this is over for me...everyone can research, and more importantly, believe whatever they want, as in the long run it will make no difference at all....

45 minutes to write this, so until it is repaired next week...only small blurbs will come out of it...Thanks!

 

[n2mini]

I'm not saying what is true and what is not. Hell, I don't even have a theory of who has been to the island regardless of their reason.Because I don't care who has been, but believe quite a few people have been there for whatever reason..I have read a few books on oak island because I've been intriqued ever since first hearing about it. I watch the show in hopes they find something to help tell a story one way or another about what has gone on there, but realise it is a reality show and don't get all worked up over how things happen on the show..I do believe it was more then JUST a fishing business there at some point, but don't know if any treasure is still there. just saying when people on here say, "there is evidence" it can usually be used/twisted to fit many different theory's, so however or what ever each person thinks of what is or had been going on there it can be used to be their evidence as to why.

 

[Roadhse2]

Yep...exactly...an why it is always better to do your own research when you question something posted...if not, I could send you to links that ONLY support what I am saying...

The salt deal of course is not MY theory at all, nor exclusively Dennis Kings, as far back as 1986 (?, thereabouts) a woman (Millie something) wrote a book expounding this theory, I will find out Monday if it is available, just to see what it says.

Just like I am now reading Joy Steele's book, who I have not agreed with, but want to see if I may have missed something in our forum exchanges that would make it plausible regarding the Cove to change my mind on her theory. gazzahk is doing the same...in this way we can discuss, from our separate read, and possibly viewpoints , what the author is proposing. We could just rely on his, (or my) read of the book, doubt it or accept it, and come to the same view....but that is just tag a long and not the way to research anything if you really want to develop or know about a theory yourself.

No one needs to accept any of this as right...you can only decide for yourself what is...reseaching yourself is the way to do that...

(Psssst...can you tell my wife is a research librarian? LOL)

 

[Robot]

"The first known persons to definitely take up land on Oak Island were the New York fish agents John Gifford and Richard Smith who were granted three islands in Mahone Bay in 1753, including the whole of Oak Island (7). There is evidence they used Oak Island as a base for their fishing operation off the coast of Nova Scotia in the 1750s"

While this was taken from Dennis Kings article, because it was easy to get to by me....there are also other articles stating the same thing....1753....You can search for them if you like, or not, pc running slow and until I fix it, I am not going to go dig around looking for this stuff....It makes no real difference to anything about the treasure and is of little interest to anyone else....

I did find this article which backs up your comments that indeed the British offered a grant to fish Oak Island!

Under the 1713 Treaty of Utrecht, the peninsular part of Nova Scotia (or Acadia) was ceded to the British. The capital was established at Annapolis Royal and remained there until shortly after the 1749 founding of Halifax.

Many government documents from the 1713 to 1749 period have survived and in the first decade of the 1900s, they were compiled into letter books by the Nova Scotia Archives. Not a single mention or item of interest can be found in these letters that relate to the Mahone Bay area.

The English commenced settling the Mahone bay area in 1753 with the founding of Lunenburg. The requirement to create Lunenburg was a result of idle German and French Protestants in Halifax and who were quickly becoming disgruntled with broken promises of good farm land.


Later in 1753 several fishing companies from the Province of New York petition for land grants in Mahone Bay. Fishing agents John Gifford and Richard Smith are granted three islands, one of which is Oak Island. Modern day Rafuse Island is granted to another New York fishing company. Did these New York folks already have fishing operations established in Mahone Bay and thereby ensuring a grant to keep said islands, or did protection with soldiers in Lunenburg allow them to start a fishery?

In 1754, Ephraim Cooke was granted the lands at the mouth of the Mush-a-Mush, later to become the Town of Mahone Bay. Further in 1754, the ?twenty wealthiest men? from New York seek to establish a community deep in the bay. The previously mentioned John Gifford acts as consultant for these men and he provides recommendations on where to settle. This role as a consultant could speak to Gifford?s previous knowledge of the bay and might indicate he was fishing prior to the establishment of Lunenburg. The Governor could not promise protection for this proposed settlement, thus it was never established.

During 1757 and 1758, several private land grants were made for land around the bay with a few tracks along the Gold River.

In 1759, a general invitation to New Englanders was made to come and settle Nova Scotia. Communities such as Chester, Horton, Truro, Onslow, and Liverpool all have origins rooted to this invitation. The folks who responded would become known as the Planters. This generation of settlers will play an important part of Oak Island?s history.

The final groups of folks to arrive in Mahone Bay were the United Empire Loyalists followed by disbanded soldiers at the end of the American Revolution. Commencing in 1776 to 1786, large and small groups of these folks escaped the American Revolution and came to Halifax. Many were granted land in Chester and a few came for work. These Loyalists and ex-soldiers will also play an important part in the island?s history.