questions about the Lost Dutchman

[motel6.5]

Kino was a rebel priest, he was from Germany, he was a astromomer, he carried a astrolob device with him which he used to plot new maps with. He did not give a hoot about any instructions from Spain. Under his tutaledge he had the Indians refine plenty of Gold into bars, large figurines,church relics,etc. Most of these items are buried underneath a river that he first had diverted for that
purpose. That river still flows strong today.

 

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[somehiker]

Eusebio Francisco Kino was born in Taio, Italy. His parents were Franciscus Chinus and Margherita Luchi.

from wiki..."
Kino was born Eusebius Chinus (the name Kino was the version for use in Spanish-speaking domains) in the village of Segno, (now part of the town of Taio), then in the sovereign Prince-bishopric of Trent, a part of the Holy Roman Empire. Other sources cite his name as Eusebio Francesco Chini.[SUP][1][/SUP]
His parents were Franciscus Chinus and Margherita Luchi.[SUP][2][/SUP] The exact date of his birth is unknown but he was baptized on 10 August 1645 in the parish church, located in Taio. Kino was educated in Innsbruck, Austria, and after recuperating from a serious illness, he joined the Society of Jesus on 20 November 1665. From 1664-69, he received religious training as a member of the Society at Freiburg, Ingolstadt, and Landsberg, Bavaria. After completing a final stage of training in the Society, during which he taught mathematics in Ingolstadt, he received Holy Orders as a priest on 12 June 1677."

more.....Eusebio Francisco Kino: Missionary, Explorer, and Cartographer

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

So the poverty vow is a fraud?

 

[Hal Croves]

So the poverty vow is a fraud?

For individuals, no.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

For individuals, no.

Who is not an individual?

 

[Hal Croves]

Who is not an individual?

A group, a body, an order. Unless those are what(s).
And most intellects who have never held an original thought.
Generally speaking.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

A group, a body, an order. Unless those are what(s).
And most intellects who have never held an original thought.
Generally speaking.

So then where is the nexus between your last posts and the vow of poverty?

 

[Patrimony]

None have you have obviously ever read all of the original documents surrounding the story of Jacob Waltz and the later story behind why Adolph Ruth was in the area looking for the same mine some 60 years later. The mine had been worked by a Spanish family in Mexico since the time of the Viceroys and they had a crown title to it. After the American/Mexican war of 1848 however the location of the mine found itself to be located inside the new US territories and the original owners, The Peralta family of Mexico, not liking being excluded from their mine, continued to covertly cross the post 1848 border to send teams of 60 to 300 men to go work it. In fact even a small stone house was built opposite the entrance to the mine and there were actually, by Peralta accounts, several mines in the area and not just one. During their last foray in 1848 however the Peraltas were ambushed and massacred by Apaches and only a few escaped and that put an end to their mining trips.
Years later when Waltz and his partner were down in Mexico they met one of the surviving Peraltas who partnered up with them and took them back to Arizona to one of the several mines his family had worked for years prior. After the three recovered gold there Peralta traded them the info on yet another mine location in exchange for the gold which the other two had just found while the three had been working together. That information was the info on the mine which later became the famous "Lost Dutchman." Peralta himself was still afraid of the Apaches and had no interest in returning to the latter mine himself and in exchange for his information accepted what gold the three had already recovered from the first mine and returned to Mexico. The mine itself however by Peralta accounts had already been excavated by the Peraltas and there was a deep gallery, a tunnel and ledges held up by wood trussses, etc..and a stone house opposite the entrance and so obviously there would be tailings dumped around. In reality though this mine should be called "The Lost Peralta Mine."

60 years after Waltz died, Dr. Adolph Ruth probably found the mine in 1932 but was murdered before he could extract himself and again he was acting on the information provided by Peralta family descendents. In that instance his son had been in Mexico in 1913 and had rescued the wife and children of the Son of the Peralta who had provided Waltz with the information. This Peralta had fallen afoul of the dictator Huerta and was in prison awaiting a firing squad for his opposition to the regime and asked Ruth jr to take his family safely to the US lest Huerta decide to later kill them too. Ruth did that in 1913 and the appreciative family members in Mexico gave him a copy of the same map that their grandfather had given Waltz. Ruth jr never acted on the information but handed the map over to his father Adolph who was a senior US Land or Agriculture Bureau official in Washington DC and Adolph Ruth decided to go look for the mine himself after he retired from Government service in 1931.

To make it short, Waltz and his partner were not the first to discover the mine and extensive work had been going on at the location for years prior by the Peralta family operating way back even under crown land grants. J Ruth

 

[NGE]

I heard, but know very little about it, What about aerial thermography? Night flight over suspected areas with a thermo camera would show "metals" which would be warmer than the surrounding rock........nge

 

[deducer]

None have you have obviously ever read all of the original documents surrounding the story of Jacob Waltz and the later story behind why Adolph Ruth was in the area looking for the same mine some 60 years later.

If I were you, I wouldn't question the expertise of some of the posters here and their ability to do first-hand research, especially considering the historical inaccuracies in your post.

 

[Hal Croves]

None have you have obviously ever read all of the original documents surrounding the story of Jacob Waltz and the later story behind why Adolph Ruth was in the area looking for the same mine some 60 years later. The mine had been worked by a Spanish family in Mexico since the time of the Viceroys and they had a crown title to it. After the American/Mexican war of 1848 however the location of the mine found itself to be located inside the new US territories and the original owners, The Peralta family of Mexico, not liking being excluded from their mine, continued to covertly cross the post 1848 border to send teams of 60 to 300 men to go work it. In fact even a small stone house was built opposite the entrance to the mine and there were actually, by Peralta accounts, several mines in the area and not just one. During their last foray in 1848 however the Peraltas were ambushed and massacred by Apaches and only a few escaped and that put an end to their mining trips.
Years later when Waltz and his partner were down in Mexico they met one of the surviving Peraltas who partnered up with them and took them back to Arizona to one of the several mines his family had worked for years prior. After the three recovered gold there Peralta traded them the info on yet another mine location in exchange for the gold which the other two had just found while the three had been working together. That information was the info on the mine which later became the famous "Lost Dutchman." Peralta himself was still afraid of the Apaches and had no interest in returning to the latter mine himself and in exchange for his information accepted what gold the three had already recovered from the first mine and returned to Mexico. The mine itself however by Peralta accounts had already been excavated by the Peraltas and there was a deep gallery, a tunnel and ledges held up by wood trussses, etc..and a stone house opposite the entrance and so obviously there would be tailings dumped around. In reality though this mine should be called "The Lost Peralta Mine."

60 years after Waltz died, Dr. Adolph Ruth probably found the mine in 1932 but was murdered before he could extract himself and again he was acting on the information provided by Peralta family descendents. In that instance his son had been in Mexico in 1913 and had rescued the wife and children of the Son of the Peralta who had provided Waltz with the information. This Peralta had fallen afoul of the dictator Huerta and was in prison awaiting a firing squad for his opposition to the regime and asked Ruth jr to take his family safely to the US lest Huerta decide to later kill them too. Ruth did that in 1913 and the appreciative family members in Mexico gave him a copy of the same map that their grandfather had given Waltz. Ruth jr never acted on the information but handed the map over to his father Adolph who was a senior US Land or Agriculture Bureau official in Washington DC and Adolph Ruth decided to go look for the mine himself after he retired from Government service in 1931.

To make it short, Waltz and his partner were not the first to discover the mine and extensive work had been going on at the location for years prior by the Peralta family operating way back even under crown land grants. J Ruth

Just wanted to to ask your source for the 1848 Peralta expeditions of 60 & 300 men. Please be specific.
Also, if you would, which Peralta was facing Huerta's executioners and do you know if he was actually executed or not?

Thank you for the help.

 

[Mitch Dickson]

Have any of you been to Apache Tears, or Hayden Arizona? Been to the Superstitions? I spent a month out there in the late 80s. Nice place LOL! A little dangerous, and that was before all the illegals and cartels wandering around. I met several new rattlesnakes and spent some time dodging a range bull around a cactus, but the most unfriendly thing I came accross was a wounded cougar. Nasty disposition. I had to send him home to meet the lord.

Anyway, my partner, Glenn Dunn, and I wasted a bunch of time and only came up with $2200 in gold to split for a month effort. Certainly not a strike it rich location. There are so many hot rocks, one sweep of a detector will get you 7 or 8 signals. So you have to dry pan as there is no water. Glenn ran a small dry washer. LMAO! He looked like a dust booger We would go up the washes and try to find black sand deposits with detectors around the boulders and dry pan those out. This was around Thanksgiving. I can't imagine being out there in July or August!

I got news, there is no Lost Dutchman mine! Never was! I have been there, walked that territory for 30 days, and there is nothing to indicate a vein of anything, much less gold! Back then Glenn and I were pretty good at gold hunting and we didn't even make wages! Thinking the Dutchman stumbled onto some lost Mexican mine is "wishful" on a good day. If he told that story, he lied Let me tell you what I believe is the truth.

There are 3 kinds of gold. Hard rock, placer, and pocket. Pockets are formed when veins weather slowly and sink into the ground creating very rich pockets no more that 3 to 10 feet down. The Dutch were experts at loaming and finding these pockets. They were very closed mouth about it. They came into a gold field after all had left as they were not interested in placer or hard rock and worked out the pockets! I believe he found indications he was near a pocket and merely loamed it out, ran it down, and dug it out! If he shoveled the dirt back in after he cleaned it, you would find absolutely nothing, especially in a hundred years.

Get yourself the book, "Loaming for Gold", memorize it, then study the history of the Dutch miners, and go out to the superstitions. Keep an eye out for large cactus in case that range bull shows up

 

[Joe Z]

Having lived in Apache Junction near the base of the Superstitions this story is very intriguing. I've hiked all thru the superstitions but have only become interested in gold in the last two years so i cannot contribute. I'm trying to figure out what day or even what channel that Superstiton show is on but just can't find it?
Joe

 

[Sagebush]

I feel that the mine Jacob found was an old Spanish one that had a smelter in it and the gold he brought to town was gold stockpiled in the mine by the Spanish. Oh, I have worked the Superstitions for 51 years, found one old mine that was purposely collapsed by nature of hacking with an ax the round wooden supports at the entrance.

 

[mpwuzhere]

Having lived in Apache Junction near the base of the Superstitions this story is very intriguing. I've hiked all thru the superstitions but have only become interested in gold in the last two years so i cannot contribute. I'm trying to figure out what day or even what channel that Superstiton show is on but just can't find it?
Joe

It was on the History Channel.... Can watch them online here :Watch Legend of the Superstition Mountains Full Episodes & Videos Online - HISTORY.com

 

[Crystal Miner]

Back in the 1940's Barry Storm a treasure hunter wrote a book about the Lost Dutchman, I believe it was called Thunder Gods Gold, I read it about twenty years ago. Storm was a avid treasure hunter, he spent the last years of his life living near Joshua Tree National Monument searching for a lost Au site there. I believe that area has now been included into the Monument also.

 

[cactusjumper]

Back in the 1940's Barry Storm a treasure hunter wrote a book about the Lost Dutchman, I believe it was called Thunder Gods Gold, I read it about twenty years ago. Storm was a avid treasure hunter, he spent the last years of his life living near Joshua Tree National Monument searching for a lost Au site there. I believe that area has now been included into the Monument also.

CM,

Many years ago we went to Joshua Tree and found an old turquoise mine that belonged to Storm. It's not far off the highway. Thanks for bringing back the memories.



Carolyn and Juno above camp, in Joshua Tree.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Hal Croves]

If I were you, I wouldn't question the expertise of some of the posters here and their ability to do first-hand research, especially considering the historical inaccuracies in your post.

Always a new twist.

Here, a new take on the discovery story including two new (documented) victims and now, two "Canadians". Somehiker, do you want to tell us anything.

Note the the spelling: Walz.... We know of an author who used that spelling.

 

[somehiker]

I'll take the fifth on that question Hal

 

[Crazy Old Man]

LOST DUTCHMAN REPLY TO BILL

Bill:

Jacob Waltz stated: "no miner or cowboy will find my Mine". This quote is from the book: "THE BIBLE OF THE LOST DUTCHMAN MINE AND JACOB WALLTZ". I am not a miner or a cowboy. I am just a crazy old man. I write supposition essays about Native American rock art (petroglyphs and pictograph) anything else that interests me. A year or two ago while travel to a pictograph site I injured myself in the Anza-Borrego desert. I was laid up in a wheelchair for two to three months. During this time read an article about the Peralta Stones and the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine at "desertUSA.com". I wrote a supposition essay interpretation of Peralta Stones title: "Lost Dutch Gold Found" which is part of the "e" book titled: "THE STONE SPOKE". The forgoing "e' book is available at lulu.com or barnesandnoble.com.

However, you need not need to purchase the book. According, to my interpretation of the Peralta Stones the stones available lead you to the Freemont Saddle in the Superstition Mountains. Therefore, there must have been oral tradition that leads you the rest of the way to the LDM. In addition, if one listens closely, to Jacob Waltz's in The BIBLE ON THE LOST DUTCHMAN GOLD MINE AND JACOB WALTZ one can find the mine.

Again Bill, I am not a miner, so I will answer your questions a best I can. Jacob Waltz brought back gold ore to town, very rich gold ore. The Lost Dutchman Gold Mine was a 4'x4'drift mine. There are tailings from the mine. However, if one knows where the mine is one will know where the tailings are. Then again, if one can find the tailing one can find the mine.

A word of warning the Lost Dutchman Mine is more red than yellow. It is bloody. Goody Luck and good hunting!

Sincerely, A CRAZY OLD MAN

Gents,
I not new to gold mining but I am new to treasure hunting per say. I grown up knowing of the legend and the show has intrigued me, Hopefully I can gain some knowledge.
I have a couple questions concerning Mr. Waltz and the gold he had. Does anyone know what type of gold he brought back to town? Nuggets or gold ore? And about how much was said to have been recovered by Mr. Waltz? How many years was Mr. Waltz bring this gold back to town?
My reasons for asking are:
First, if the mine is a load mine then the ore would have to be transported to a smelting plant to extract the gold before he could spend it around town. This would require wagons to transport not just a couple of pack mules, defiantly not carrying it by hand on mountain trails.
Second, is you then could gauge the approximate the amount of tailing that would be left at the mine site. Also how much ore could one man mine by hand over that time frame?
Third, if the gold were nuggets then most likely this was a placer gold find. Which would be much easier to recover pack out and leaving little or no signs of tailing behind for someone to discover.