questions about the Lost Dutchman

[cactusjumper]

Austin,

Actually I can translate Spanish (Colonial and Castilan). I can read Spanish in Italica, Cortesana, and Procesal. I posted a simple translation of an edict by the King of Spain detailing his displeasure with the fact that even in the light of previously posted laws prohibiting Religiosos & Clerigos from working in the business of mining, this illegal activity was still being done in amounts such that it was affecting his Royal Treasury. So I ask if you have a problem with the translation? I can provide you a link to the same book written in its native Spanish.

..... or is it that you have a problem with it because it is in direct conflict with what you have been taught?

Just wondering.

AGAIN, before posting things such as you post, I highly recommend going through this thread:

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/treasure-legends/153540-jesuit-treasures-they-real.html

I know it is long, but there is a LOT of referenced information.

I have sources all over the world when it comes to research. Someone on this forum recently returned from a trip to the Vatican Archives. I have contacts I correspond with often in the Jesuit Curia, and a couple of long time family friends (one retired) from El Colegio de Mexico in Mexico City. I have been to more of Mexico than most Mexicans in my life. I have also spent time all over Central and Northern South America (that was mostly Military though with a different mission). And when it comes to many things Jesuit, I like to ask my friend Father John O'Malley SJ who is a Jesuit Historian at Georgetown University.

You say that you are a credentialed Professor. Great. Not that I doubt you, but since you make the claim, maybe you could identify yourself?

My name is Mike McChesney from the Los Angeles area.

Mike

Mike,

Father O'Malley is a great source and you are fortunate to have him as a friend. That being said, you know he has not been involved in any research into the Jesuits of Mexico. He will tell you it's possible they were involved in mining in Mexico, but he has no personal knowledge that it happened.

Hope all is well with you.

Take care,

Joe

 

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[deducer]

Mike,

Father O'Malley is a great source and you are fortunate to have him as a friend. That being said, you know he has not been involved in any research into the Jesuits of Mexico. He will tell you it's possible they were involved in mining in Mexico, but he has no personal knowledge that it happened.

Hope all is well with you.

Take care,

Joe

Joe, you and the professor are missing the point that Mike is making.

His response was to the professor's remark on the below statement, in regard to how he goes about research:

Say, "Where do I find exactly what Waltz said to Rhinehart Petrasch?" Then Randy, Myself, Joe, or one of many others will tell you that information is in Sims Ely's Book "The Lost Dutchman Mine" first printed in 1953. When our knowledge of basic facts regarding this story are questioned, we tend to get a little ornery, mostly because we have already done that research, and if you want proof, do your own research. You spend thousands of dollars on books and documents. You spend hours on Ancestry.com and Newspapers.com trying to find that one thing that everybody else has overlooked.

So in short, Mike is not relying on "Books written by historians. Magazine subscriptions" exclusively. He is talking about them in the context of looking for any kind of clues or leads to chase down.

 

[gollum]

Joe,

You are correct to a point. The man has a wealth of knowledge about the Jesuit Order. One would NEVER expect a Jesuit Priest to even imagine the possibility that Jesuits would break any laws. Father Polzer SJ was a fanatic about this. He would never admit even the possibility that Jesuits would have engaged in mining. Father O'Malley SJ may not have any personal knowledge on the subject, but for a Jesuit to admit the possibility is an amazing thing to me. I would not have guessed that possible.

Hope you and yours are well and happy as well!

Mike

 

[Tnmountains]

 

[jeff of pa]

Jeff,

Since you did this publicly, my reply will be public as well.

I am personally offended that you would say something like that to me. I have been posting here since 2006, and I have NEVER started anything with anybody. Of every time I have had an issue with anybody, I was NEVER the one to instigate. On this thread, I am only not playing well with ONE other! You want to take sides, that's your prerogative. Don't throw it at me. I didn't start it. I think I have enough people here that watched the entire flame progress that know exactly what happened.

Your post is offensive and worst of all incorrect!

Mike

Mike that Doesn't Excuse the things you said. Read the rules here.
You are the one I saw that Broke them.

http://www.treasurenet.com/index.php?pageid=rules

I call them Like I see them.

If you insist on attacking Members , Trust me.
I will end it

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Multiple people have broken TN rules, just because one breaks a rule doesn't mean it is okay for someone else to breaks the rules replying....Report the original rule breaker and allow mods to handle the issue....

We could make it real simple, break a rule, any rule at all and earn a timeout and this includes language and mocking other members or their replies...

 

[sdcfia]

As much drama happening here as in the tv show. I guess Mike has the Frank role. Stay tuned.

 

[Cubfan64]

I guess the smartest and best choice is just to use the "ignore" button, but the problem with that is it interrupts the flow of dialogue sometimes to the point where it's hard to follow what's being discussed. With that said, I'll have to use it for the 2nd time ever

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

One is now on vacation for not listening to mods and insulting member, our rules will be obeyed...

 

[Tnmountains]

The topic is "Questions about the lost dutchman"

 

[Tnmountains]

Thanks for all the reply's to the questions both here and the PM's. Sorry stirring up a hornets nest by asking questions. Guess I need to stick to dredging to get my gold...

Rebel it is not your fault people derailed and hijacked your post.

 

[gollum]

Unlike the authors, TV producers, Apache Junction business owners, and gold claim sellers, it seems none of you have figured out that the REAL Lost Dutchman's gold mine, is the legend itself. I can't tell you how grateful I am to all of you for all of the deep belly laughs I get from reading your heartfelt posts! Please, keep looking and arguing - it IS great entertainment!

Hey Terry,

You don't believe in hidden mines in the Superstition Mountains?

Next time you get out Goldfield way, ask Bob about The Mormon Stope of the Mammoth Mine if you don't believe what I say.

In 1951, the Mammoth Mine was winding down. Not a lot of production. One day while digging, they broke into a very old adit (horizontal mine shaft). When they entered the adit, they found there was no exit. They back tracked to both ends of the shaft, and at one end, they found lumber blocking the entrance. From the outside, you couldn't tell anything was behind the slew of rock and dirt. After digging through the debris, they found the lumber that blocked the entrance. They worked the Mormon Stope from 1951 until 1953, when that vein played out. They took about $2.3 million from that HIDDEN MINE SHAFT.

Also, ask around about the "Pit Mine" near Roger's Spring in the SWA. A group of people worked that pit during only the Summer months for three years (1997-1999). Nobody has ever admitted what was mined there, but a couple of the group are quoted as saying they found the LDM, so that says they weren't mining uranium. You will probably never see anything documented from The Pit Mine since it is in the SWA, but ask around. Somebody might say something to you.


Mike

 

[gollum]

Rebel,

There is one apology I do feel I need to make. I am sorry for being part of your post getting so sidetracked. I know flame fights are entertaining, but it does nothing to move the conversation along.

Please. The hornets nest had absolutely nothing to do with you or your questions.

Let me answer them now:

1. Waltz' ore was gold in white and rose quartz. It is what is called picture rock or jewelry ore. A LOT OF VISIBLE GOLD.

2. The ore would not have had to be smelted before being able to spend. In the Old West (especially around mining towns), most of the stores and saloons had scales. You could throw some of your hand cobbled ore on the scale, and you could get that much booze, women, or store goods.

3. Wagons wouldn't be necessary because when gold ore is 1/3rd to 1/6th visible gold, you only have to dig out twenty or thirty pounds, then break it up by hand so you only have to transport the very richest ore. Maybe one or two sacks on a mule.

4. Hardly anything in the way of tailings. Remember, Dick Holmes had 40 pounds of Waltz' Ore from the candlebox under Waltz' Bed. That 40 pounds of ore netted Dick $4000. Simple math folks:

$4000 total divided by (1891) spot gold $20.67 per ounce = 193.52 ounces of gold divided by 12 troy ounces to the pound = 16.13 pounds of gold from about 40 pounds of ore. That is about 40% gold. That says to me the ore under Waltz' Bed had been broken up by hand, so only very rich ore was left to hide.

5. One last thing. Nobody knows exactly how much ore Waltz took from his mine. He did say that there was enough gold in his mine to make twenty men millionaires (at $20.67 per ounce). There is a story that one shipment Waltz made was so big he got about $250,000 and sent it to his sister in Germany (nothing documented). He did say to Rhiney and Julia that he had made three caches from his mine, which he hid in places easier to reach than his mine. Two small and one large. He said he had already taken one small one. He also did loan Julia Thomas about $1200 to pay off a new Ice Cream Soda Fountain for her business.

Mike

 

[djui5]

Are there any more questions you have Rebel?

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe,

You are correct to a point. The man has a wealth of knowledge about the Jesuit Order. One would NEVER expect a Jesuit Priest to even imagine the possibility that Jesuits would break any laws. Father Polzer SJ was a fanatic about this. He would never admit even the possibility that Jesuits would have engaged in mining. Father O'Malley SJ may not have any personal knowledge on the subject, but for a Jesuit to admit the possibility is an amazing thing to me. I would not have guessed that possible.

Hope you and yours are well and happy as well!

Mike

Mike,

It's because Father O'Malley is an honest man, that he would realize that the Jesuits were, in the final analysis, men. They broke many of their rules........when the situation required it. That is why he said it was possible.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[sgtfda]

Hahaha! You never cease to amaze me!

Karl: No.
I did post that the info came from ancestry records. I did not say the info came from emails.

Your email says great great grandfather. I said great grandfather.
LoL!

You really need to put more thought into your claims. Your claim that Franks gold contained a lot of copper was a good one! You obviously didnt have a bit of knowledge about the copper content but made the claim anyway. Frank set you straight by posting the assay results.

Before the assay I showed Mike some of the gold. Out of the ground it has that dark copper color. I told Mike I thought the color was due to copper. After the assay it's apparent the tint is from the silver. After a soak in vinegar and salt tint is gone. Attached if photo before cleaning

 

[sgtfda]

The Jesuit order had a college that made loans to prospectors. If a mine was found and the loan not paid off the college ended up with the mine. Thus the Jesuits found them selves in the mining business through their college
At least that's what I read in a bio on Kino

 

[gollum]

The Jesuit order had a college that made loans to prospectors. If a mine was found and the loan not paid off the college ended up with the mine. Thus the Jesuits found them selves in the mining business through their college
At least that's what I read in a bio on Kino

Frank,

Its a lot more than that. Its not just the Jesuits either. I will repost the 02 February 1705 edict from the King of Spain:

February 6th 1705

[From Pandectas Hispano Mexicanas No 586]

Prohibiting clerigos and Religiosos from acquiring interest in Mines in New Spain

The King Whereas by cedula of the 14th of March 1703 I commanded the Duke of Albuquerque my present Viceroy of the Provinces of New Spain to report me on the excesses committed by the Administrators the Mines of Guanajuata and on their having taken Mine of Rayas from Don Lorenzo Cauo and having it to Doctor Don Juan Diaz de Bracamonte Presbyter compliance with which he gave an account of what had been done and stated that in that kingdom they had not enforced the prohibition of the law which that clerigos cannot hold Mines since in many Reales there are clerigos who are Miners either because of their having acquired them by patrimony or because necessity caused the matter to be overlooked, And having seen, in my Royal Council of the Indies, all the papers on the subject and heard on it my Fiscal and having in Law IV Title XII Book I of the Recopilacion de Indias which prohibits Religiosos y Clerigos from working Mines and considering this to be as grave an offense as it declared to be in the law, I have resolved to order and command as by these presents I do order and command my Viceroys of New Spain and Peru and I require charge the Archbishops and bishops of the two kingdoms to observe what is contained in Law IV Title XII Book I above cited and to cause it to be observed in the form precisely as it is expressed. the said Viceroys and ecclesiastic prelates of both kingdoms and provinces together each in his own place for the better and remedy of these violations and that in compliance the said law neither the one nor the other permit in provinces and dioceses such relaxation but that they watch with due punctuality and vigilance over the precise punctual observance of the provision of the said law without permitting consenting to or allowing it at any time to be contravened in its contents on account of the injury which results therefrom to my Royal Treasury to the better administration and preservation of the Mines And of the receipt of this despatch and of the form which each one shall fulfill it in their provinces dioceses and jurisdictions they will give me a very particular account on the first opportunities which may offer for the reason that it pleases me to he fully informed of its effectual observance

Given at Madrid February 6th 1705

I The King

By command of the King our Lord

Don Juan de Aperrequi

There was so much silver and gold mining being done by various religious people, none were singled out. One can, however, guess which Orders were involved by looking at the cities mentioned in the edict.

Religious types were not permitted to mine because they were supported by the King of Spain on the order of 200 pesos per year for every Missionary. Their job was not to find material wealth, but to convert heathen souls. What the King didn't understand was that most religious orders may understand that he is the King of his little place in the world, but God is the King of everything, and their allegiance to God (and his emissary The Pope) over rode any earthly promises made to a King.

Mike

 

[chlsbrns]

The Jesuit order had a college that made loans to prospectors. If a mine was found and the loan not paid off the college ended up with the mine. Thus the Jesuits found them selves in the mining business through their college
At least that's what I read in a bio on Kino

No disrespect meant but that comment doesnt make any sense to me on so many levels.

http://www.bc.edu/content/dam/files/top/church21/pdf/HowtheFirstJesuitsBecameInvolvedinEducation.pdf

Can you direct me to the bio?

This must have been before the Jesuits were expelled in 1747?

 

[chlsbrns]

I did a little searching and found the info below.

Jesuits were missionaries and explorers who reported their finds.

Below is an unedited quote from a history book that can be read at:

https://archive.org/stream/historyarizonaa00oakgoog/historyarizonaa00oakgoog_djvu.txt

"Pino says that old silver mines were found
closed up, with the tools inside, and doubtless the
prospect-holes made by the Spaniards before 1680
were thus found occasionally; but there is little or

904 LAST YEARS OF SPANISH RULE.

nothing to show that any practical mining was ever
done in New Mexico under Spanish rule. Stone was
not used for building, but only adobes; yet a semi-
transparent yeso, or gypsum, was quarried near Santa
F6 and used for window-panes. Pike calls it a flex-
ible talc. 41 Pino tells us that roads in the province
were good, but he did not allude to artificial improve-
ments.

There were no colleges or public schools, and no
professional man — except of the military profession —
or priest had been produced in New Mexico"