Queens Dowry...

[rgecy]

I find it interesting that 6 leagues south of Cape Canaveral is just off Indialantic and Melbourne! I know there have been "1715" artifacts reported found in that area as well!

Now I do not know much about the Archival documents, but I do know that they were fairly good about measuring distances on most occasions. It would be hard to confuse a distance of 6 leagues when it was actually 11. I am not saying thats where the Capitana or Almiranta lie, but if I found a document that said a wreck lies 6 leagues south of Cape Canaveral, I sure as heck would be looking in the area.

Thoughts?

RGecy

 

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[FISHEYE]

When Mo used to keep the virg next to my boat at finns marina i was talking to him one day and he said they blew a hole so hard that they went right through the coquina hard bottom.He said there was a void that was big and black underneath and that no one would go down in the hole but were getting gold type hits from down there.

 

[rgecy]

We defintely found some artifacts below the coquina layer on the Green Cabin wreck. Once you get past the hard pan, it blows the loose sand out below and creates a cavern effect. We had zero vis on the bottom that day and with huge slabs of coquina. Found mostly lead sheeting. Could have been pretty dangerous if one of those had fallen in on the hole!

 

[Booty Salvage]

Pretty sure the goal is not to blow through the coquina. That stuff is pretty old. The Spanish were harvesting it to build their forts which means it was there when the ships wrecked. I have found spikes and musket balls stuck in soft coquina, but never anything under it. It could be that the artifacts are on top of the coquina and they fall into the deep sand when you blow it apart

 

[Trembull]

Pretty sure the goal is not to blow through the coquina. That stuff is pretty old. Was harvested to build their forts which means it was there when the ships wrecked.

Coquina construction of Fort Matanzas

Coquina | Seriously Funny Science

Coquina Rock: Everything you wanted to know about Coquina Rock

 

[grossmusic]

Sorry I'm late to the discussion. I have questions & theories...

1) Dowry issues: In archival & primary source documentation I can find no evidence there was any formal "Queen's Dowry" other than possibly 100,000 doppie (Italian gold coins/ducats) in the form of jewelry. This would be part of the August 1714 marriage contract where the queen was the giver, not the recipient (dowries of the era & region were always provided by the bride's family). I can not find independent verification of this 100k doppie, but maybe someone else can?

2) Consummation issues: There is a possible royal intrigue that may have started the rumor of the withholding of consummation, but it is definitely not what actually happened. The king & queen absolutely consummated on December 24, 1714, as the queen mistakenly thought she was pregnant as early as January 1715 (& of course she did become pregnant sometime before the flota ever left Havana as she gave birth in January 1716). The lore probably came about from Cardinal Alberoni's elaborate machinations to oust the evil Princess Orsins from the Spanish Court. Or just a big fish story.

3) Echeverz's sons: According to Basque documentation Echeverz's son Fermin (who survived & helped salvage for 2 months) was on a Tierra Firme ship named Nuestra Señora del Carmen, which of course due to duplicate naming could have been the mainland fleet's capitana (aka Carmen) where most survived or the 2nd patache (aka Popa) where everyone survived. (Note: Fermin could not have been on the fragatilla aka Ciervo because there were no survivors.) The eldest son Pedro died on Rosario and other son Manuel died on Concepcion. There is some confusion amongst historians about Echeverz's son Miguel, which seems attributable to the fact that so many ships & captains shared that name. By all accounts in my research, Miguel was safe at home in Panama during the disaster.

If Fermin was indeed on Popa, this might help explain the discrepency constantly brought up about Echeverz's letters from the Popa's wreckage while calling it his own real. There are so many sites attributed to Popa's wreck (from Cape Canaveral down to Ft. Pierce) in all the interpretations that there's no way to be sure, but the theory that Popa wrecked somewhere between Pedro's Rosario & Echeverz's Carmen makes the most sense - it was so close that Echeverz could easily run things in the southern wrecks from the Popa's decks/cabins (washed ashore intact) & still consider it his real. And it would be very much worth his while to immediately go there first thing since his surviving son wrecked there.

4) Wreck positions: Based on all this info, I put together the following Google Earth map (showing all but San Miguel up by Jacksonville) - I'd love feedback:

(just click on image to open in its own window for larger scale)

Because I plan to dramatize the story this year, I hope some of you can offer insights. I'd like it to be as accurate as possible.

 

[tarpon192]

I find it interesting that 6 leagues south of Cape Canaveral is just off Indialantic and Melbourne! I know there have been "1715" artifacts reported found in that area as well!

Now I do not know much about the Archival documents, but I do know that they were fairly good about measuring distances on most occasions. It would be hard to confuse a distance of 6 leagues when it was actually 11. I am not saying thats where the Capitana or Almiranta lie, but if I found a document that said a wreck lies 6 leagues south of Cape Canaveral, I sure as heck would be looking in the area.

Thoughts?

RGecy

This is true. 1715 fleet artifacts have been found on indialantic beaches, and a few miles north also when conditions are right.

Old thread, but still great reading.

 

[signumops]

Sorry I'm late to the discussion. I have questions & theories...

1) Dowry issues: In archival & primary source documentation I can find no evidence there was any formal "Queen's Dowry" other than possibly 100,000 doppie (Italian gold coins/ducats) in the form of jewelry. This would be part of the August 1714 marriage contract where the queen was the giver, not the recipient (dowries of the era & region were always provided by the bride's family). I can not find independent verification of this 100k doppie, but maybe someone else can?

2) Consummation issues: There is a possible royal intrigue that may have started the rumor of the withholding of consummation, but it is definitely not what actually happened. The king & queen absolutely consummated on December 24, 1714, as the queen mistakenly thought she was pregnant as early as January 1715 (& of course she did become pregnant sometime before the flota ever left Havana as she gave birth in January 16). The lore probably came about from Cardinal Alberoni's elaborate machinations to oust the evil Princess Orsins from the Spanish Court. Or just a big fish story.

3) Echeverz's sons: According to Basque documentation Echeverz's son Fermin (who survived & helped salvage for 2 months) was on a Tierra Firme ship named Nuestra Señora del Carmen, which of course due to duplicate naming could have been the mainland fleet's capitana (aka Carmen) where most survived or the 2nd patache (aka Popa) where everyone survived. (Note: Fermin could not have been on the fragatilla aka Ciervo because there were no survivors.) The eldest son Pedro died on Rosario and other son Manuel died on Concepcion. There is some confusion amongst historians about Echeverz's son Miguel, which seems attributable to the fact that so many ships & captains shared that name. By all accounts in my research, Miguel was safe at home in Panama during the disaster.

If Fermin was indeed on Popa, this might help explain the discrepency constantly brought up about Echeverz's letters from the Popa's wreckage while calling it his own real. There are so many sites attributed to Popa's wreck (from Cape Canaveral down to Ft. Pierce) in all the interpretations that there's no way to be sure, but the theory that Popa wrecked somewhere between Pedro's Rosario & Echeverz's Carmen makes the most sense - it was so close that Echeverz could easily run things in the southern wrecks from the Popa's decks/cabins (washed ashore intact) & still consider it his real. And it would be very much worth his while to immediately go there first thing since his surviving son wrecked there.

4) Wreck positions: Based on all this info, I put together the following Google Earth map (showing all but San Miguel up by Jacksonville) - I'd love feedback:
View attachment 924207
(just click on image to open in its own window for larger scale)

Because I plan to dramatize the story this year, I hope some of you can offer insights. I'd like it to be as accurate as possible.

Very credible insights! Dowry carrot finally put to rest, as it should be. On the other hand, there are at least 200 chests of silver unaccounted for, officially.
Your mapping will stir unending controversy: many corporate financing schemes will run counter to it, but, the 1715 fleet story has a huge number of loose ends.
Bonsteel Park was probably a smaller salvor washed ashore with cobs in 1716. Otherwise, you have probably got it right (I know nothing about Ciervo)

What wreck lays off the old radar site at Melbourne Beach? Almost without a doubt it is either a fleet vessel, or one associated with it shortly after the fact.

What wreck lays just north of the Urca de Lima?

Did two of the vessels collide with one another just prior to running ashore?

Which vessel is to be found east of Sebastian Inlet? Much money has been spent looking for her, over a period of fifty years, by several actors who were involved with the original discoveries in the 60's.

BTW, can you tell us how you plan to "dramatize" the story?

 

[grossmusic]

Almost without a doubt it is either a fleet vessel, or one associated with it shortly after the fact.

...

BTW, can you tell us how you plan to "dramatize" the story?

I never thought of a ship wrecking during rescue ops. Very interesting possibility... And it would likely have treasure. There are no reports that I've seen of that, but the info is definitely scattered & my access to it is as limited as everyone else's. Would love to fly to Seville & hire a translator, but that's not going to happen anytime soon.

...

I've been trying to finish a screenplay for months with hopes to actually produce it this year for a 300-year anniversary release in 2015.

There are many obstacles in such an endeavor, especially my own ignorance that keeps sending me back into research! But as you say, there are too many loose ends to expect to factually support everything. And then of course there is "artistic license" for the sake of drama. But it's an incredible story not yet told on screen (as far as I know). Once the script is finished & polished, you'll definitely hear much more about this...

 

[mad4wrecks]

Philip and Elizabeth were married by proxy on September 16, 1714 and in person on December 24, 1714. As grossmusic pointed out, the marriage was almost assuredly consummated on that date. Philip was probably a sex addict (there are many references to this) and it was his wedding night, alleged dowry be damned.

Also, their first child, Carlos (later Charles III), was born in January of 1716, which means conception (not to be confused with concepcion ), took place around April 1715, before the 1715 fleet was fully loaded and ready to sail for home.


As to any archival or first source documentation to this legend.....I have someone working on it. In the meantime, there are some good references mentioned on this webpage:

Full text of "Elisabeth Farnese, the termagant of Spain"

 

[bigscoop]

As for the birth of the child, that was my fault, not his. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[grossmusic]

Yes - the "Termagant" book is very interesting, but offers zero info about the wrecks, sadly. Good French farce-ish story about how the queen came to the marriage, though.

Now that I've outed myself as both ignorant & trying to write/produce a movie, I have the dumbest question in the world...

Where on a ship's exterior (if anywhere) would the Spanish have placed the name of the ship? I have yet to see any contemporary renderings that show the ship's name pre 1800 for any nation. I've queried a couple of maritime museums - no answers.

Without a good explanation, I'll probably just do what Master & Commander did & make up a place to put it on an archboard or escutcheon on the stern despite that the original ship did not have that.

Meanwhile, how do you put the name of a ship with a name like Nuestra Señora del Carmen San Miguel y San Antonio so that it's legible!?

Master & Commander replica of Rose (named Surprise for the movie):


Contemporary (1776) rendering of Rose:


I can't find any replicas that show an escutcheon with a full name on it. Model builders always make a nameplate that goes on the display stand - never on the ship.

Original 1678 sketch of Hampton Court (later named Nuestra Señora del Carmen San Miguel y San Antonio by Echeverz):


I don't even see a place where I could put an abbreviated name!

 

[mad4wrecks]

Naval ships may have had names on them, but for a merchant ship, probably not a good idea. Why identify yourself to the enemy?

Also, as so many ships were bought and sold (and thus renamed by the new owner) or taken as a prize and renamed, adorning a vessel with a name was probably not customary.

Just a guess on my part.

 

[Jolly Mon]

I suspect mad4wrecks is right and that many or most merchant vessels and perhaps even military vessels did not have name plates.
It was customary in the age of sail to hail a vessel and inquire her name and nationality.
But here is the transom of HMS Victory, launched in 1765. She is the oldest commissioned ship still afloat. Very little of the present ship is original, most of wood having been replaced over time, so it is hard to say if this plate would have been present on the original or is simply a latter addition. But for artistic license I think it works quite nicely.

 

[bay pirate]

I never thought of a ship wrecking during rescue ops. Very interesting possibility... And it would likely have treasure. There are no reports that I've seen of that, but the info is definitely scattered & my access to it is as limited as everyone else's. Would love to fly to Seville & hire a translator, but that's not going to happen anytime soon. ... I've been trying to finish a screenplay for months with hopes to actually produce it this year for a 300-year anniversary release in 2015. There are many obstacles in such an endeavor, especially my own ignorance that keeps sending me back into research! But as you say, there are too many loose ends to expect to factually support everything. And then of course there is "artistic license" for the sake of drama. But it's an incredible story not yet told on screen (as far as I know). Once the script is finished & polished, you'll definitely hear much more about this...

Love it. I'm gonna start reading for ya. If I get lucky and have an answer, you will have my insight. Just keep us updated.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Just write what you want, use that artistic license... everything naming a 1715 wreck site is speculation.

I was under the belief that there were survivors on the Capitana... The map above has (all dead)?

Was just having the "wreck names" discussion the other day....again... probably have it about every other week.

The info I'm always told is that Dr. Lyons found reference that the "Chuck's steakhouse" coins are from a wrecked salvage vessel.

I've also been told that the Carmen and Rosario have never been connected to their supposed prior ship names. Dr. Lyons researched for this...

I've also found some inconclusive research that the Rosario was the Mars originally Dutch not French. Hmmm that would change a few thoughts.

If one believes that Lima was accurate with his position then that would change a few other sites...

I don't know where the Queen's Dowry was started but we do have jewels for the Queen in docs...

If that's been your carrot I think one is a little foolish. There are possibly over 3 million silver coins out there and they're hard enough to find let alone a few very particular items....

About the ONLY thing that can be said with some sort of large % of possibility is that the Cabin wreck is one of the capital ships because of the quantity and type of certain artifacts found, that being the copper ingots...

So write on Tammy, flow with the creative and worry about the "facts" later!

It's not like anyone can pull out some concrete evidence to "prove" it wrong!

Best of Luck with it!!

 

[LM]

(showing all but San Miguel up by Jacksonville) -

Everyone assumes the treasure-flotsam in Nassau sound comes from the San Miguel but don't forget the El Ciervo/La Galleria. Entirely possible (even likely) that it was carrying stuff a helluva lot more valuable than Rosewood and is reported to have gone down in the same general area.

 

[grossmusic]

Good points, Au_Dreamers.

At this point, I can't verify for certain where I came up with all my conclusions, such as "all dead" on Ubilla's capitana - I believe that was a typo (wreaking havoc on facts!). I keep a file (as I'm sure many of us have) that I only update when I come up with new/better/semi-verifiable info than before. It was put together painstakingly based on "facts" & best interpretations at the time 3+ years ago with few changes since, but of course it's all speculation & there's always the possibility of human error on my part.

Human error is definitely on the map & my notes are iffy... According to my notes, the magic number 7 applies to several ships: 7 passengers survived on Regla (not sure how many crew), 7 crew + Salmon on San Ramon, turns out 7 died on Nieves, & 7 survivors drifted for 3 days from Concepcion. That may be accurate. Not sure. I show that 1 survived from Maria Galante, but not sure where I got that (I believe Haskins indicates all perished).

I thought Mars was English-built (captured by French). Just goes to show...

There definitely were "queen's jewels." The question is whether there was a dowry involved... It's possible that anything labeled "queen's" in documents would have been a gift to her from the king or part of the 100k dowry from her to the king. Ubilla was commissioned for his part in the flota as far back as 1712 while Echeverz was commissioned in early 1714, either just before or after the 1st queen died. He was already in the New World by the time the 2nd marriage's contract was signed in August 1714, so dowries & gifts were afterthoughts that would have been handled via communications to/from Spain over the course of the year before the flota finally set sail.

Thanks for the note, LM. True - San Miguel and Ciervo could be anywhere. All perished/disappeared on both & neither have been definitively found/identified.

As far as I know, other than Urca de Lima, only the location of Rosario is "for sure." They failed to do any salvage on it in 1715. But, according to my fallible notes, Wagner found the bell from Rosario at Sandy Pointe. That's fairly definitive, except that the ocean churned so much that the bell may have drifted in its wooden brace (unlikely but possible). I'd say Nieves is fairly certain as Douglass Beach, though I'm not sure any identifying pieces were found. Wagner made his fortune off this site since it also was never salvaged in 1715 (by October most of the victims, incl. captains, wanted to leave & move on with their lives).

 

[FISHEYE]

This is how it works.Back in 1715 after the fleet wrecked.Theres 25 Spaniards standing in a line.The 1715 fleet wrecking story gets told to the first one in the line he tells the story to the next guy in line and so on till the guy at the end gets the story.So the guy on end has this modified story and who knows what the truth really was.Then the story gets passed into books and news papers and who knows who changed it some more.Then 299 years later its changed even more.You can even try this with 10 or 20 people.Tell the first person something and see what the last person has got.You will be amazed how much was changed.

 

[rush]

Hmmm ,So i'm wondering if the are still Royals out there that the jewles might be handed down to if ever found? I could be one maybe lol.
Like I swear I remember something in my ancestery that noted about the queen dowry with chests of emeralds ,rubies and golden pineapple ear rings. I'm going to have to ask my sisters they are the ones that read it to me in our geneolgy I think anyway If not then then I am
remembering weird things about what I think was in my past lives again lol..Things I think I remember but cant explain .
I'm a nobody so that would be way cool if someone found me and said I think these belong to you ... Hahaha ya right ... I just love the fascinating treasure stories an the very strange memories in my head.