Queens Dowry...

[grossmusic]

The duke's dowry was the duchy. Elizabeth was the heir - she was a princess basically. That was of more value to Spain than any money they may have had, which was very little, especially after 14 years of war left Parma at the mercy of Austria's dominance.

The king was bipolar by all deduction. He was virile to be sure, but was pious & wouldn't sleep with anyone despite all the "offerings" brought to him. He only believed in sex within marriage. So he was probably very anxious to marry just about anyone, but had to have Louis XIV's oky doky to do so.

Elisabetta seems to have come to the throne emotionally reluctant & likely not a virgin. She was head over heels for an Italian chaplain she had daliances with on her way to the in-person wedding to the king. It's doubtful her nightly meetings were just "chats" & it did take a couple years to break things off with the paramour.

I agree that Philip likely wanted to dazzle her with great gifts, & I'm convinced that all the references to "queen's jewels" were his gifts to her. Despite war, the coffers were fairly full in Spain, even if some of it came from emptying those of the churches.

My personal concern about the "dowry" wording is not just the historical inaccuracy of it, but how it pops up in the lore. People keep repeating this hokum that there was an official dowry & that without it the queen would not consummate. There's no evidence of that. In fact, quite the contrary. There were no expectations financially on either side, & consummation was immediate - and often - on the wedding night. (blush)

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Family Maps of Hinds County, Mississippi, Deluxe Edition - Grab it through Amazon!

[aquanut]

I think you've got it right this time.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

that without it the queen would not consummate without it. There's no evidence of that. In fact, quite the contrary. There were no expectations financially on either side, & consummation was immediate - and often - on the wedding night. (blush)

Ahh so not really so much using modern "dowry" but the above....but it sure does make a nice story....lol

In Hollywood "based on a true story" could simply be that, there once was a King and a bride to be"... everything else can be made up, completely!

There's been many stereotypes, misconceptions, agendas... pushed forward by using historical figures, historical events with fictional screenplays. Some of those have won the biggest acclaim, but I digress...

 

[grossmusic]

Many people believe that these coin chest were 'Lead Lined". I hear this all the time but the FACT is that there has not been any chests found on 1715 fleet or Atocha that were lined with lead. Where did that come from?

I was just flipping through some books for other info & stumbled on the Appendix of salvaged items in 1998's "Pieces of Eight" book by Wagner & Taylor. At the cabin wreck (p.212):

 

[signumops]

Lead liner

Be aware that the first edition of "Pieces of Eight" came out in 1966, and you should pay particular attention to its detail, as you have done. Lead was the proverbial 'plastic' of the day, used for ammo, tooling, bearing surfaces, timber capping, seals, seam plugging, and water-proofing of boxes, especially those containing precious spices or medicinal herbs. It was also used as a chest liner for coin boxes and I have found some of this myself on 1715 wrecks. This liner was actually a foil and one side would almost always feature a fabric impression. I am not sure this impression was not an artifact of the foil production itself, but, heavy bags of coins would definitely leave a fabric impression on the lead liner of a chest. In fact, the malleable silver cobs themselves, while sitting in bags would take on the negative surface impression of the fabric containing them. I have attached three photos, two of which are a piece of this lead foil found by Jimmy Koenig at a wreck much farther north in Florida. You can see the fabric impression on the lead. Also included a shot of a Piece of Eight from a cache in Saudia Arabia that plainly illustrates the canvas impression of the bag that once held it. This cob was found in a wall of a building in the desert, allegedly.
If you have a copy of "The Winter Beach Salvage Camp", by Doug Armstrong, check page 13 for his remarks about the lead foil product which he found throughout the salvage campsite. He suggested that the foil was beaten into its thin configuration by hammering it while covered with canvas, which makes sense.

 

[PhipsFolly]

I too have recovered lead box lining with canvas impressions on one side as well as having recovered one 1715 Fleet 8 Reales with the same impression on one side... both from Corrigans... supporting the Pieces of Eight book reference as well...

 

[grossmusic]

What I would really love is an update of that 1998 Appendix, both as a detailed list & in photo evidence. What ALL has been recovered by modern salvors? That's actually what I was looking up. Maybe we should start a photo thread for that? Best thing online I've seen is sparse:
1715 Fleet Treasure Salvage

 

[captbonnie]

What I would really love is an update of that 1998 Appendix, both as a detailed list & in photo evidence. What ALL has been recovered by modern salvors? That's actually what I was looking up. Maybe we should start a photo thread for that? Best thing online I've seen is sparse: 1715 Fleet Treasure Salvage

the Pinterest board is mine ...thanks for looking and will motivate me to add some more. There is SO much more ...literally pounds of gold in jewelry, discs, and coins from Douglas Beach alone. Have you seen the 1715 Fleet Society site? http://www.1715fleetsociety.comSome new stuff in the archives section if you haven't been there in awhile. Mel Fisher artifact database online on the main Fisher site is searchable and includes 1715 material.

 

[ROBOTCOP13]

I love this topic

17 Nov 1716.
Investigation was made into locating the Queen's jewels which were sent by the President of the Audiencia of Guadalajara aboard Ubilla's Capitana. They were not found during the salvage operations.

Testimony of Luaurriaga, Master of Silver on Ubilla's Almiranta, 18 Nov 1716.
He verifies that the Queen's jewels were delivered to Antonio de Potflis, Master of Silver on Ubilla's Capitana, who died in the disaster. The jewels were kept in Potfis' chest of clothing or his portable desk, neither of which turned up in the salvage operations. He is sure, that because the currents in that area, which are very strong, that the desk or chest of clothes with the jewels were carried away like the serones or bags of indigo and cochineal.


Cadiz, Testimony of Armenta, 18 Nov 1715.
Armenta was responsible for the recovery of all the treasure. He verified that the Queen's jewels were put on Ubilla's Capitana but did not turn up during the salvage


List of jewels sent to the Queen aboard the Capitana of Ubilla's Flota, sent by the President of Guadalajara, Mexico.

A. Two pair of gold earrings (drop earrings); one pair was in 3 parts, the lower part being in the shape of a pineapple with 129 pearls (very small ones); the other pair was smaller and each had 38 small pearls and on one extremity there was a gold amulet. Both pair weighed 3 and 1/16 ounces.
B. A rosary made of coral the size of chickpeas with the "Our Father" in gold and with three small medals and a small rose also of gold, weighing 3 1/16th ounces.
C. Two pearls in the shape of an almond, weighing 28 carats; another round pearl, weighing 8 carats; 98 inferior pearls, much smaller in size.
D. A gold jewel in which it appears to have the image of St. Clara.
E. Three gold rings, two plain and one with an emerald.


"Bigscoop wrote:
Sad part is, most of the truly interested will never be allowed to physically conduct a search. I truly love these type of mysteries but.......hard to get too inspired these days."

What do you mean? Queen's Jewels LLC allows sub-contractors on the 1715 Fleet.
Also/or one could invest with a current operation.

Get inspired, these wrecks are workable and "protected" from the greed of Spain!!

Item E. The 3 gold rings.

We have all seen the rings with the big emeralds, either big single stone or 9 big emerald stones in one ring. They seem to be men's rings because of their size. Is there any further description of the third ring with " an emerald". I would imagine it would be a ornate ladies ring a little more delicate looking, embellished somehow.

I'm willing to do some research and I wonder if you could tell me a reference source? Is it the Jack Haskin's library data or something else that is available?

Au were you at the last Treasure Hunter's picnic in Wabasso? I was the guy who won the Excal 11.

Thanks

 

[Salvor6]

What about the brooch that Kevin James found on Bob Weller's boat that had 151 diamonds and a big hole in the middle? Bob thought that hole once held a big emerald.

 

[Darren in NC]

Ha! That would be Chris James, Pete!

 

[SADS 669]

I wish..........

 

[ivan salis]

as a old seaman < I also know that lead sheeting was also used on wooden ships hulls to help worm proof them ---in topical waters there are wood boring worms that will bore holes in wooden hulled ships causing them to leak and become unseaworthy if not taken care of. .finding lead sheeting often means a older ship wreck ....later on they switched to copper sheeting

 

[ARC]

as a old seaman < I also know that lead sheeting was also used on wooden ships hulls to help worm proof them ---in topical waters there are wood boring worms that will bore holes in wooden hulled ships causing them to leak and become unseaworthy if not taken care of. .finding lead sheeting often means a older ship wreck ....later on they switched to copper sheeting

I was always under the impression it was a "money thing"... cost prohibitive...
In other words the cost prohibited most hulls from being coppered and that lead was the standard.

I could be wrong on this though.

 

[ARC]

" The use of copper sheathing was first suggested by Charles Perry in 1708, though it was rejected by the Navy Board on grounds of high cost and perceived maintenance difficulties. The first experiments with copper sheathing were made in the late 1750s: the bottoms and sides of several ships' keels and false keels were sheathed with copper plates.[citation needed]

In 1761, the experiment was expanded, and the 32-gun frigate HMS Alarm was ordered to have her entire bottom coppered "

 

[ivan salis]

in the mid to late 1700's era copper hull sheeting became much more affordable due to more modern manufacturing methods that could make thin copper sheeting at much more affordible prices .. once that occurred thin copper sheeting took the place of older thicker and heavier lead sheeting --as a added bonus the copper was toxic to the sea slime that normally grew on lead hulls ..so there was less hull cleaning that needed to be done ...a costly and rough job ..the slime if left unchecked would cause drag and the ship would lose sailing speed due to it

 

[Prif_Tanker19A]

This is a pretty newby question to the 1715 fleet, but this is new to me. I'm mostly a Henry Every guy, but am curious about the fleet treasure, specifically, documents referring to it. I am looking for record of the actual treasure carried by the fleet. I see you have a listing of the Quenn's dowry, and I was wondering if there was any documents pertaining to the cargo carried by the fleet, maybe even broken down by ship. I'm sure it exists somewhere, maybe in Spain or in Cuba, but I have had no luck uncovering any such document. Thanks!

 

[seekerGH]

I'm mostly a Henry Every guy,

C'mon Lt...what are you trying to say? (and run spell check on your posts!)

Professional Tanker? Jeez

 

[grossmusic]

This is a pretty newby question to the 1715 fleet, but this is new to me. I'm mostly a Henry Every guy, but am curious about the fleet treasure, specifically, documents referring to it. I am looking for record of the actual treasure carried by the fleet. I see you have a listing of the Quenn's dowry, and I was wondering if there was any documents pertaining to the cargo carried by the fleet, maybe even broken down by ship. I'm sure it exists somewhere, maybe in Spain or in Cuba, but I have had no luck uncovering any such document. Thanks!

Scour the entire Shipwrecks forum, prif. There's info in FL libraries & of course in Seville's archives. The question's a bit generalized for a specific answer since manifests are pages long. Most are available in some form in the Haskins report (found in a few FL libraries - Indian River & Islamorada), something I don't think is legal/appropriate to post online, though portions have been either posted or transcribed into several threads here.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Nuestra Senora De La Regla

2,559,917 pesos in coins and bars of 1,300 chests
23 chests of worked silver
62 chests of gifts
1 small chest of gold bats, doubloons, and pearls
730 leather bags of cochineal
241 leather bags and chests of indigo
17 chests of vanilla beans
6 chests of chocolate
70 sheets of copper
730 tanned leathers
4 chests of Chinese porcelain
100 quintales of Brazilwood
9 chests of earthern vessels
14 jugs of Balsam



something like that?