Put away your metal detectors sheeple

[bigscoop]

If I might make one observation which greatly relates to the intended purpose of this thread, and only because I feel it is the very root cause as to why you will never be able to form any type impacting solidarity and voice in the treasure hunting community until this attitude goes away.

Look at the title of this very thread......who in their right mind would attempt to inform/educate the treasure hunting community of a suspected threat to our hobby in an effort to garner support by insulting the intelligence of the very people he is trying to get that support from? "sheeple"...........are you kidding! How bout, "fellow treasure hunters".....or maybe "friends in support of treasure hunting". To be honest, when I first saw the title of this thread I said to myself, "Oh great, another rant from someone telling the rest of the treasure hunting community that they're only smart enough to be compared to sheep." This has to be made to go away, especially in the minds of those who have the ability and knowledge to inform & educate. If not, then the battle you desperately need to wage is already lost. Not attempting to personally attack anyone, just my two cents on an issue that I feel is VERY important to the future hope of every forming any level of impacting solidarity within the treasure hunting community.

As for the contents/comments in this post, "Glad I decided to listen in" despite being compared to a sheep right out of the gate as it has offered a lot of information and insight into this possible threat to our hobby. Just saying........

 

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[ScubaFinder]

Big Scoop,

You have misunderstood the usage and meaning behind the word "sheeple" Terry's point was that the GOVERNMENT is treating us like sheep, Terry is not calling us sheep, its not that hard really. Don't take things out of context and assume they are meant to be insulting to you personally. Terry is a great guy, and his reasons for using the word Sheeple were very obvious to everyone I know.

Jason

 

[FISHEYE]

You are a Sheep or a Wolf.

Which are you?



Me< WOLF

 

[bigscoop]

Big Scoop,

You have misunderstood the usage and meaning behind the word "sheeple" Terry's point was that the GOVERNMENT is treating us like sheep, Terry is not calling us sheep, its not that hard really. Don't take things out of context and assume they are meant to be insulting to you personally. Terry is a great guy, and his reasons for using the word Sheeple were very obvious to everyone I know.

Jason

Understood. But just a little "fyi" as I wasn't the only one who noticed this. Just making whoever aware. And I'm sure Terry "is" a great guy, which is why I bothered to make the post at all. Like I said, not attacking,...

 

[Tom_in_CA]

seeker41, you say that senator Alan Hayes says:

"The effects of SB 868 have been misunderstood ........ This bill does not impact ..... the ability of individuals to use a metal detector on our beaches, or any of the activities these hobby enthusiasts legally enjoy now...."

Well gee, that's interesting isn't it, that a senator himself tells you, the constituent, that? Seems you can take that "to the bank", print it out, and just carry it with you when you're detecting the "our beaches" there then, eh? But I know now what the studious folk will say about the sentator's comments: That ... yeah, sure, you can "detect" the beaches. But ... doh .... Lord help you if you find a 50+ yr. old coin, doh! Or did you catch the part of being to continue to go to where you currently "legally enjoy now"?

Well read what scuba-finder says:

"The DHR did away with this program back in 2005, sighting that the DHR could not afford to continue the program. At the same time they passed a law making it illegal to recover any manmade object 50 years old or older from Florida waterways ...."

and

"The bottom line on this, is this legislation does nothing more for the protection of Florida’s cultural heritage than the laws that are already on the books." (emphasis mine)

If I'm reading scuba-finders comments correctly, it supports what I said earlier, that if you asked enough questions EVEN NOW, of whatever public entity it is (even anywhere else in the USA for that matter), and I bet you are currently afoul of laws anyhow (albeit un-enforced, as they are *realistically* meant to protect obvious monuments and such)

hobbitt, you say:

"Their evidence for stating that FL 868 is a "good law" for metal detecting, is one conversation with a Florida Legislative spokesman"

Again I ask, if someone in authority tells you "go ahead", why not "go ahead"? For example if you waltz in to a new town and aren't sure of any potential rules. So you see a cop or a council-man sitting on a park bench. So you walk over to him and ask "can I metal detect here?". He says "sure, go ahead". Ok: do you argue with him? Or do you detect?

And even it's true that that cop or council-man WAS wrong, seems to me that you acted in good faith, had it on written word from an authority, and thus any burden would be on THEM, not you. I for sure do not argue with anyone who tells me "yes". It becomes their problem, not mine, so long as I have their say-so, it's out of my hands. The worst that will happen in that case, is if someone else wishes to over-ride that other person's approval, they're welcome to do so. But until that time, you're operating, in good faith, on the word of a duly-appointed official!

 

[hobbit]

update, wording of the bill is still bad but...................

from Jerry Hitson (FMDAC):

Update from Alan Hayes:

The effects of SB 868 have been misunderstood. This bill simply extends current law to areas in which the State currently does not have jurisdiction. The extension is very small in scope in order to cover areas such as those depict. These are pictures of land owned by Lake County Water Authority, a political subdivision/special taxing district created by the legislature within my district. As current law is written, when this type of damage is done to the property, law enforcement’s hands are tied and they cannot take action to enforce preservation of the land or the artifacts recovered. As you can see from the pictures, the bill is addressing unauthorized excavation and exploration on these types of lands.

This bill does not impact private lands, the ability of individuals to use a metal detector on our beaches, or any of the activities these hobby enthusiasts legally enjoy now.

My office has been in contact with staff from detectingrights.com. and clarified what the bill actually addresses. Hopefully, if you belong to that organization, you will be receiving an email soon. I would also encourage you to visit the updated post on their website at detectingrights.com and look at the tab which states items requiring immediate attention.

I understand where some of the confusion on this bill may have originated. The original language of the bill had a drafting error that was caught and corrected during the first committee stop. The bill originally read “any lands” when it should have read “any state owned lands”, so it was never my intent to prohibit anyone from doing anything on their own land. It was never my intention to create overly burdensome regulations, and I do believe in keeping government small, but when I see in my own district where our shorelines are being washed away by someone with a “borrowed” garden hose, or holes are being dug deep enough for someone to stand in, and all this damage must be repaired, I need to take action.

I do appreciate the posts and your letting me know this concern was out there and that word was spreading regarding the potential impact of this bill. Hopefully, I have been able to address your concerns and create a better understanding of what this legislation is all about.


Staff Analysis for SB 868
[www.flsenate.gov]
/Fc8PqfZE=PL=7glAi5D5WcObC2RU74=%7C11/Public/Bills/
0800-0899/0868/Analysis/2012s0868.pre.bta.PDF
News updates from Task Force For Metal Detecting Rights Foundation

67 267.13 Prohibited practices; penalties.—
68 (1)(a) Any person who by means other than excavation either
69 conducts archaeological field investigations on, or removes or
70 attempts to remove, or defaces, destroys, or otherwise alters
71 any archaeological site or specimen located upon, any land owned
72 or controlled by the state,including state sovereignty submerged land, land owned by a political subdivision as defined by s. 1.01(8), or land within the boundaries of a designated
75 state archaeological landmark or landmark zone, except in the
76 course of activities pursued under the authority of a permit or
77 under procedures relating to accredited institutions granted by
78 the division, commits a misdemeanor of the first degree,
79 punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083, and, in
80 addition, shall forfeit to the state all specimens, objects, and
81 materials collected, together with all photographs and records
82 relating to such material.

This is the current text of the bill.
Exactly how do you conduct an "archaeological field investigation" by means "other than excavation"?
ESP?
What has this got to do with "bulldozers" and "sifting for indian relics".
The underlined part is the new part of the statute. Some of you guys just don't get it. This statue EXTENDS the protection afforded to "archaeological preserves" and state controlled lands to ALL STATE SOVEREIGNTY SUBMERGED LANDS and all city and county owned land as well. This is what the spokesman for Senator Hayes calls "small in scope"...
If you are going to console yourself with the "knowledge" that the State "just won't enforce it"...get a load of the penalties if they DO decide to enforce it. And if they do...you don't even get to go to COURT.

 

[mad4wrecks]

If you are on Facebook, please join this open group:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/162198840565602/


Apologies if this was posted elsewhere.

 

[hobbit]

I am sorry, Tom in Ca., but it is clear from your last post in regards to Scubafinder that you aren't following this closely. His whole point is that archaeologically sensitive sites are ALREADY protected under the current statutes. What does this new legislation do? I will tell you what it does: it essentially turns all the beaches in the state of Florida into an archaeological preserve in regards to archaeological field investigations with or without the use of excavation. You tell me exactly what that means. If you choose to bury your head in the sand on this issue, fine. Just don't bury it in the sand on the beaches of Florida after July 1st, 2012, because then your head will become an "archaeological specimen" and may not be able to be removed except under the auspices of the state Bureau of Archaeology. I am assuming, of course, that your head is of antiquity that great.
Your insistance we can carry a letter from a Senator or other elected offical around to protect us is ABSURD.
There is a whole lot more about this bill that stinks as well, stuff that might have real economic impact to some people if the State "chooses to enforce it". Some people really DO have a dog in this hunt...

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Hobbit, I agree with everything you're saying. That this is not a "good" thing.

But since you and I agree that when taken to it's logical conclusion, it can indeed apply to our hobby (assuming, of course, we find coins older than 50 yrs. old), then again I ask:

What do you make of the multiple officials OUTRIGHT TELLING YOU that you CAN detect, and such? The only conclusion I can come to, is that you are, in effect, telling us that those duly appointed officals are just plain wrong about their conclusions.

That's fine. Let's assume, for sake of argument, that they are indeed wrong.

In that case go back to my question: If a cop or council-man is sitting on a park bench, and gives you the written "ok" to detect the park, then who is the one who is "going to be in trouble" if you detect that park? Seems to me that until their "written ok" is over-turned, then the only one "in trouble", is that person who JUST gave you the "ok".

Mind you I'm not saying this is a good or ideal thing. I'm just saying, that if things on our part were un-successful, and it did pass as law, I for sure (if I lived there) would most certainly print out this senators and that spokesperson's statements, and would continue to detect.

Presuming of course the average beach personell continues to "care less", and presuming of course you used due discretion to not hunt at the most sensitive of sites, then ........

 

[hobbit]

A park ranger or a cop does not have the authority to grant you permission to violate a state law. I don't know why that is so difficult to grasp.
The duly appointed officials ARE wrong in their assumptions about this legislation or they a "fudging" on what they do know. This legislation was written by attorneys with a very specfic intent. The intent is hidden and it is latent. It has to do with a LOT more than digging up Standing Liberty's at the park. And compaining after the fact that legislators did not understand the "intent" of the law is going to protect no one. I don't think this will be enforced now, but what do you think using a metal detector IS?...I will tell you what it IS: it is "conducting an archaeological field investgation without the use of excavation." Think about that terminology for a moment.
Furthermore, this legislation also prohibits a person's right to sell or barter an "archaeological specimen".
I said this yesterday: if this law were in California, it would not bother me.
You just don't seem to understand that Florida REALLY IS SPECIAL in regards to our hobby. It is special because of its proximity to the dangerous route used by Spain to transport billions of dollars worth of gold and silver back to Europe. Some of that treasure was lost in shipwrecks. A LOT of that treasure was lost in shipwrecks. Some of it washes up on "state sovereignty submerged land". It happens. It really happens. And some of it is very valuable. We are not talking about Franklin Halves or Barber Dimes. That's why the motivation of certain people to enforce this legislation, even on a limited basis, will be so strong. This is no "walk in the park". A state archaeologist will be able to "ask" a local authority like a cop or park ranger to enforce the law...They KNOW when cobs and other things are likely to be found...
If this law passes and you are detecting the Treasure Coast after the next big hurricane and an Escudo comes up in your scoop, would you worry? If you were walking back to your car with a few half-reales from Bonsteel Park and saw rangers and a guy with a clipboard in the parking lot, would you worry?...Or would that letter you have in your pocket from Senator Hayes' office comfort you?...

 

[ivan salis]

if the law is on the books and YOU break it , you suffer for it

if you ask a cop --can i rob a bank , and he says sure go ahead , and even you say "
can you put it in writing that you officer jones said it was ok? --sure he says and writes it .

if you rob a bank , its you who broke the law --not officer jones ,

you asked "officer jones" the question and took his "bad advise" -- it your fault for asking a moron the question in the first place , ignorance of the law is no excuse nor is being misinformed by someone who's doesn't know the law.

the same way if you ask a dumb stock broker about a stock to invest in --if he gives you "bad advice" --you lose your money -- you can not scream but i can't lose money -- because broker smith said buy 1000 shares in the "bottom of the sea" steamship company

 

[bigscoop]

You are a Sheep or a Wolf.

Which are you?



Me< WOLF

And that's exactly a great example of what I was suggesting the root problem is. Forget what's happening with the laws, that is the least of our treasure hunting community's problem. Again, you have already openly & outwardly divided your community resources before you ever got started. They have not, and never will, which is the real reason they are winning.

 

[diggummup]

Taffi Fisher Abt
For what it is worth, here is my letter just emailed to Govenor Scott! Today’s the Day! Please feel free to copy and paste to any social media.

Honorable Governor Scott,

At great expense to my industry, F.S. 267 was heatedly revised a couple years ago with much public input due to an outcry by public and private user groups who were not notified in a timely fasion of the revisions by the Flo...rida Division of Historical Resources who began the process. This resulted in lengthy administrative procedural review. Now SB #868 (which revises and changes that statute) just passed quickly and almost invisibly through approval by both House and Senate without even notifying those same user groups or asking for their input. We are outraged at this. We are working on minor revisions which may make this bill constitutional, however, our only immediate recourse is to ask you to please VETO this bill until the major stakeholders have a moment to provide thoughtful and effective input. This bill in its current format is not only unconstitutional, it is vague and unfair to private sector stakeholders? However good the intentions of the legislators, it seems that the representatives and senators on the committees who voted on this bill did not and do not understand the full impact and ramifications it may have. We have a professionally prepared economic impact statement and would like to request an audience with you to discuss this matter. In the meantime, we beg you to NOT SIGN this bill into LAW until after meeting with my colleagues and myself.

Taffi Abt
Board Member HSSPC
Historic Shipwreck Salvage Policy Council
[email protected]

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Hobbit, I totally agree with everything you write after your first sentence. And it can all be summed up in this: "This can utterly apply to us, and is not a good thing".

But let's dissect your first sentence a bit more:

"A park ranger or a cop does not have the authority to grant you permission to violate a state law."

a) Yes, of course, that that's why HE's going to be in trouble for that!!

b) In his mind's eye (no matter how mistaken he may actually be), he did not give you "authority to violate" a law. He was interpretting the law.. Did he interpret wrong? Perhaps But again I maintain that HE is the one in trouble. And YOU are merely "re-appraised" by some higher authority, if any such confrontation ever occurred. That authority then goes and gives that lower authority the riot act.

Ivan: puullleease, do you see any differences in examples of the "cop who gives you the ok to rob a bank", verses this? I mean, for pete's sake, is there ANY ambiguity in ANYONE'S mind as to robbing banks, murder, etc... verses the ambiguity of this?? The mere fact that we hobbyists are debating the legal wording/semantics of this, is proof in itself that there is (even if remote) room for differences on meaning here. Do I favor the more worse interpretation? yes, and I have gone on record earlier in this thread of admitting as such.

But un-like metal detecting all 50 states, which goes on all the time, and is utterly ignored and even legal a ton of places, there is NO place where people are robbing banks legally, and NO reason why anyone would begin to think it's ok, even in a police said "it's ok".

There is a big difference, therefore, in the illustration you counter with. A much better illustration is the micro-scale example of asking a council-man sitting on a park bench if there are any laws prohibiting you from detecting.

 

[hobbit]

I guess you are saying the spokesperson for Senator Hayes has the authority to interpret law for the entire state of Florida. Otherwise, I am going to need written permission from an officer in every area I detect. I am going to stop answering your objections on this thread. This thread has been thrown into disarry by people who really have "no dog in the hunt". I started a new thread for precisely that reason. I only regret that you have lulled some members of this forum into thinking that SB 868 will not possibly affect them.

 

[signumops]

Sheeple… make of it what you will. Got your attention, you read the thread, you acted, the legislators know we have an eye on them. All good. We are NOT sheep.

The existing law is about the same now, except that it applies to all State-Owned Land (and ONLY State-Owned-Land, which includes the seafloor from the beach out three miles).

Now, the law as it exists specifies and directs law enforcement to act in support of it. But that would be the jurisdiction as set out now, which is only on State-Owned-Land.

Senator Hays is concerned about the holdings of the Lake County Water District, which is similar to the South Florida Water Management District, the St. Johns Water Management District, ect.. So he, or the Attorney General do not believe that law enforcement has the authority to enforce Chapter 267 in the water districts. His solution: apply 267 to everything (but private property…well, he admits he over did it to start out with).

We did not see the pictures he was talking about, but, relic hunters (probably also using metal detectors) were digging holes where somebody did not like them to be digging holes. By the way, is a hole in the ground prima facie evidence of intent? Don’t answer, it does not matter for the moment. We will find out the hard way eventually.

Excerpt of the current law…
267.031 Division of Historical Resources.--

(1) The division has authority to adopt rules pursuant to ss. 120.536(1) and 120.54 to implement provisions of this chapter conferring duties upon it.

(2) The division may make and enter into all contracts and agreements with other agencies, organizations, associations, corporations and individuals, or federal agencies as it may determine are necessary, expedient, or incidental to the performance of its duties or the execution of its powers under this chapter.

(3) The division may accept gifts, grants, bequests, loans, and endowments for purposes not inconsistent with its responsibilities under this chapter.

(4) All law enforcement agencies and offices are authorized and directed to assist the division in carrying out its duties under this chapter.

(b) It is further declared to be the public policy of the state that all treasure trove, artifacts, and such objects having intrinsic or historical and archaeological value which have been abandoned on state-owned lands or state-owned sovereignty submerged lands shall belong to the state with the title thereto vested in the Division of Historical Resources of the Department of State for the purposes of administration and protection.

So there you have it. The cobs I found in the City Park were not on State-Owned-Land and I had no worry until the passage of 868. That would, incidentally, include all the city parks in St. Augustine (oops, wait, that is probably designated as an archaeological zone of some type). Now it won’t matter because everything that is not private property will now be an “archaeological zone”. That’s the end run ladies and gentlemen, but at least they did not get to pull off a hail-mary on us.

Fokker, I got my eyes on you.

ps. I'm outta here

 

[seeker41]

Taffi Fisher Abt
For what it is worth, here is my letter just emailed to Govenor Scott! Today’s the Day! Please feel free to copy and paste to any social media.

Honorable Governor Scott,

At great expense to my industry, F.S. 267 was heatedly revised a couple years ago with much public input due to an outcry by public and private user groups who were not notified in a timely fasion of the revisions by the Flo...rida Division of Historical Resources who began the process. This resulted in lengthy administrative procedural review. Now SB #868 (which revises and changes that statute) just passed quickly and almost invisibly through approval by both House and Senate without even notifying those same user groups or asking for their input. We are outraged at this. We are working on minor revisions which may make this bill constitutional, however, our only immediate recourse is to ask you to please VETO this bill until the major stakeholders have a moment to provide thoughtful and effective input. This bill in its current format is not only unconstitutional, it is vague and unfair to private sector stakeholders? However good the intentions of the legislators, it seems that the representatives and senators on the committees who voted on this bill did not and do not understand the full impact and ramifications it may have. We have a professionally prepared economic impact statement and would like to request an audience with you to discuss this matter. In the meantime, we beg you to NOT SIGN this bill into LAW until after meeting with my colleagues and myself.

Taffi Abt
Board Member HSSPC
Historic Shipwreck Salvage Policy Council
[email protected]

well, this is the most encouraging news i have seen!
taffi, thank you very much

 

[mad4wrecks]

Terry, I want to personally thank you for getting the ball rolling on this issue on Treasurenet and all your other help. It means a lot to all of us.

The issue has spilled over on to Facebook on the page that Pat Clyne started. I posted a link a few responses back.

We have won some of these battles and lost a few over the years, via the Conch Coalition, Treasure Coast Coalition, HISPAC etc...but will continue to fight the good fight.

Tom

 

[ScubaFinder]

Ditto Tom, well said.

 

[tarpon192]

Big Scoop,

You have misunderstood the usage and meaning behind the word "sheeple" Terry's point was that the GOVERNMENT is treating us like sheep, Terry is not calling us sheep, its not that hard really. Don't take things out of context and assume they are meant to be insulting to you personally. Terry is a great guy, and his reasons for using the word Sheeple were very obvious to everyone I know.

Jason

Jason is correct. GOVERNMENT is, and alway has treated the AMERICAN people like sheep. Trying to hoard us all. We are not sheep, we are people - AMERICAN CITIZENS WHO HAVE RIGHTS. Many rights are being taken away from all of us little by little - that is the problem. If you are raising children today, they will not have a chance to enjoy what all of us older folks have. It is a shame the people we vote into power walk all over us.
MAY GOD BLESS US ALL, AND HELL WELCOME WITH WIDE OPEN DOORS ALL THOSE WHO ARE DRIVING THIS GREAT COUNTRY DOWN.