Put away your metal detectors sheeple

[lookindown]

READ LINE 60 TO 62 SECTION C *

"or offer to sell , purchase or exchange any archaeological resource excavated or removed from any land"

nothing is said about any time frame limits --its says "any" artifact removed from "any" land .

the devil is in the details *

Anything you want to sell, purchase , or exchange, didnt come from Florida.

More or less you are saying that the laws passed are not a threat, because you can lie your way around it. In my, while not as educated as many here, especially when it comes to legal, or political topics, it does seem to me, that the more we try to find a way around the laws, or ignore them, the more they will make.
There needs to be a method to stand up against the law makers when they put their focus on something such as this. While this bill may not be, or at least not seem to be too big of a threat, it only take a well worded amendment, or addition to this bill to make it a very serious problem.

Im saying it is a law that cant be enforced, unless you let it be enforced. You are right about this being the way our rights are slowly taken away. They start slowly and then before you know it you hear "No metal detecting."

 

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[Twisted One]

Okay so more or less, our only hope is to have everyone join one of these united metal detectorist groups, and hope that who ever leads it isn't bought out by a politician? Anyone belong to either of those groups that can voice their experience with it?

 

[ScubaFinder]

Groups are great, but letters from individual constituents do more good. If we got together into ONE metal detecting group, and pooled our resources ($$) and all united on a single front then the groups could help. As you can see from this thread, we cant even get together on what the legislation means. Half want to pass it off like it's nothing (I assure you it is NOT) and the other half wants to act like Obama just appointed a communist metal detector czar. The truth lies somewhere in the middle, and anyone who turns a blind eye like there isn't some shady wording in this legislation is not using his head.

Treasure Hunters have egos....therefore working TOGETHER has never been one of our strong suits. We united against Rule 31A and we did a lot of good. Now would be a good time to unite against SB 868, but most of you seem content to argue about what the vague wording means to us. That my friends is a loosing battle for sure.

 

[Twisted One]

It's all going to get worse after these shows.


http://www.facebook.com/pages/Stop-...iggers-Looting-Show/240273139398170

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Peopl...ican-Digger/193110227460512?sk=wall

http://aroundthenetworks.com/spike-...es-unscripted-show-american-digger/

 

[FISHEYE]

I just gave em a piece of my mind at the link ,posted as Still Waves (FB)Lets see what this stirs up with the sheeple there

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Stop-National-Geographic-Diggers-Looting-Show/240273139398170

 

[Twisted One]

See calling them whiners was were it's going to start getting ugly. You have to remember these people believe one thing, while we believe it in a different way. It won't be any different then discussing religion. Both side have a belief, and neither side can be proven wrong, but if you tell an extremist of one side they are whining, and it turns to war.

 

[FISHEYE]

They didnt like that and removed what i posted.lol.I bet they all voted for Obama too.

 

[Twisted One]

They didnt like that and removed what i posted.lol.I bet they all voted for Obama too.

Oh, I was hoping you deleted it. If I had the power to. I would have deleted it myself. Everyone has a right to an opinion, and point of view. You can't declare them whiners for doing so and expect them to respect you for it.

I would think our best hope in this hobby is to garner a mutual respect between the Archaeologist, and the Metal Detectorist. Belittling one is not for the betterment of the other. Quite the opposite.

 

[cornelis 816]

The only thing I can say is that I feel sorry for the contractors in Florida . If they start digging the soil for a foundation and they hit an indian mount or a few coins or pottery they are in deep trouble . Even with a permit they have to stop their operations or get in trouble with the state . Maybe their equipment can be confiscated ( if the state wants to do that because they are in violation of the law ) . Maybe these guys will think a little in our ways . Cornelius

 

[tarpon192]

THIS POSTING HAS GONE WAY, WAY, WAY OFF WHAT IT WAS INTENDED TO DO HERE. I WITH TERRY, AND WILL GO OVER THEIR.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

"had undertaken actions in violation of Rule 1A-31.0035, Florida Administrative Code, in that they began exploration in state-controlled lands without the benefit of a permit or agreement with the Division of Historical Resources of the Department of State."

This is an excuse, not a reason. A Catch22.

Is Lindsay Smith related to Roger Smith?

Aquanut

John If I'm reading you correctly let me clarify
from "Here's a definition of the permits available." till her email address is the only thing from Lindsay Smith. Only the definitions were from her to help me clarify the use of terminology that is often used casually and incorrectly.

I've learned that you should use the proper terms and conditions a state organization wants you to if you want to move forward with their paper word after the State of New York denied and sent back a submission because they require the cover letter to be paper clipped instead of stapled and requested a $300 re-filing fee to be included with the re-submittal!

Prior to that it is from publicly accessible State of FL documents one of which is
http://www.dos.state.fl.us/office/general-counsel/final-orders/Final-Orders-DHR/hr-05-02.cfm

 

[drewan29]

drewan29, so the laws they cited you were for "preserving history" but did not specifically say "no metal detecting?"

If so, and if they had to "check into the laws" (as if to imply, they didn't really know how to answer your question, till they went and looked hard enough to morph something to apply to your "pressing question"), do you think this might not have been a case of "no one cared till you asked"?

For example: we had a true case here, in a city park where I live, where someone new to town took it upon themselves to go down to city hall to ask if they could metal detect in the park. Someone there (after being shunted from desk to desk) told them "no" (perhaps even citing "historical preservation", for all I know )The person promptly came and told the rest of the club members, at the next meeting. But oddly, this park had been detected since the dawn of time, and no one had ever cared.

They have it on there website that you need a permit to look for lost items in state parks so I figured I would check on it. They came back with any state or public land you need a permit and you have to discribe what you are looking for you are only aloud to look for that item anything else found needs to be turned over to the manager or officer "ya right". They told me straight out if caught detecting I would be fined.

 

[aquanut]

You guys are giving me a headache! Particularly the ones that are only worried about their ability to metal detect. All you are thinking about is your little world. This has far reaching impacts that you narrow minded fools (and you know who you are)...can imagine!
I'm outta here!
Aquanut

 

[hobbit]

Pat Clyne posted this link on Facebook.

Hi everyone, the Task Force for Metal Detecting Rights Foundation spoke with Pierce Schuessler (Legislative Affairs Director from the Florida Department of State), and apparently an older version of the bill was distributed within the metal detecting community where the words "all lands" were used. This error has been corrected. Florida SB868 and HB591 are not against people who metal detect. We have a full write-up on our website here


http://detectingrights.com/florida-sb868-hb591.php

Folks, the "any lands" clause being struck out is a red herring. That part of the bill would have extended the prohibition on excavation and removal of "archaeological specimens" to include all private land AS WELL as ALL Public Land in the state of Florida.

I suggest you do a little vetting of the "authorities" you are touting as experts on this issue. The "Task Force for Metal Detecting Rights" (impressive sounding name, I admit), is a small group of New York City metal detectorists. That's it. They have no experience in Florida Law whatsoever. In fact, they make no claim to having any legal experience whatsoever. Their evidence for stating that FL 868 is a "good law" for metal detecting, is one conversation with a Florida Legislative spokesman. This is the list of the Task Force's "successes" touted on their website:

In 2011, the New York City Department of Parks and Recreation, closed another major park to metal detecting, Clove Lakes Park. In addition, they added a condition to the 2011 permits, which the metal detecting community feels in intolerable, and was initiated without cause. You were not permitted to metal detect within 50' of any flowerbed, shrub or tree. We have had this rule reduced to 25' and we are still working on abolishing it all together.

In 2011, the Task Force requested and received four additional parks that will be added to the 2012 NYC Parks metal detecting permit.

In 2010, Task Force efforts resulted in three additional parks being added to the 2010 metal detecting permit.

In 2008, Prospect Park and Owls Head Park were closed to metal detecting. Owls Head Park remains closed, but Prospect Park once again allows metal detecting thanks to a successful call campaign organized by the Task Force.

In 1997, all NYC beaches were reopened to metal detecting and some NYC public parks were reopened, under a permit system established between NYC Parks and the Task Force.


Thats it.



Here is the list of "People actively involved in the Task Force" provided on their website:

Avery Marder, NYC—One of the original TF members dating back to 1996. Has been involved with NYC Parks fighting for our right to metal detect for over 15 years. Avery has enjoyed the hobby for 24 years.

Harold Lownfels, Upstate NJ—Along with Avery, he is also one of the original members of the Task Force and has been involved with NYC Parks fighting for our right to metal detect for over 15 years. He was instrumental in setting up the NYC metal detecting permit system currently in place. Harold has been metal detecting since 1975.

Carter Pennington, Upstate NY—Joined the Task Force in 2008 and has been actively involved with protecting our right to metal detect since that time. Carter has been enjoying the hobby since 1973.

Board of Advisors:

John Marchese, Staten Island, NY—Former President of the Staten Island History Hunters, John has a real passion for the hobby. He was instrumental in helping the Task Force achieve success in opening NYC Parks that were previously closed

That's it.

I am sure these are all nice guys. I am sure they have been great for detectorists in NYC.

BUT WHAT MAKES YOU THINK THEY KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THIS ISSUE?....other than the fact that they claim to have spoken to a Tallahassee Bureaucrat whose has "
assured them" that SB 868 has nothing to do with metal detectorists? This part is important...the Government spokesman is NOT lying...why?...because the bill NEVER SPECIFICALLY MENTIONS METAL DETECTING OR METAL DETECTORISTS !!!...it mentions "archaeological specimens", it mentions "excavations", it mentions lots of other stuff, but it NEVER MENTIONS METAL DETECTING OR METAL DETECTORISTS!!!! So you see, you WILL be able to metal detect. The bill is not against metal detectorists...it just will not allow you to DIG "ARCHAEOLOGICAL" TARGETS or ATTEMPT TO REMOVE "ARCHAEOLOGICAL" TARGETS on ANY PUBLIC LAND IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA, INCLUDING TIDELANDS.

Please go to their website. See for yourself exactly what they claim to know. See for yourself exactly how they came to know it. They don't even claim to have read the bill for themselves. There is one good thing about their site, though: They have a link where you can read SB 868 for YOURSELF. It is not that difficult. You can do it.
Remember: the only things that change from the current statute are the parts that are underlined.

 

[nsdq]

This bill will also apply to the use of metal detectors at all florida airports.They will have to do away with them all due to people that are over 50 years old and some have historic value.

if a 50 yr old person falls down do yo get arrested for picking them up ?

 

[ivan salis]

aquanut --its bigger than just metal detecting alone * your 100% right -- but the ranks of big time treasure hunting salvors are only so many in number , remember my good freind --there is strength in numbers and there is a lot of "metal detectorists" and "fossil sharktooth hunters" and "arrowhead hunters" and such out there in florida --and for this war we are going need all the troops we can muster to help defeat this hidious bill and stop it dead in its tracks ( never mind the facts folks are fighting for their own little "niche" reasons -- the fact is their fight and thats what matters --every person we can get involved is one more member of the army to kill this bill -- because it will effect ALL of us , if it gets enacted -- big time treasure salvors , metal detectorist , fossil and arrowhead hunters , old bottle hunters --you name it .

 

[Bum Luck]

Yup, there's a lot of ADD going on here, so we should stick to the issues. It's a bad bill, and we know who's behind it and why.

Contractors are locally powerful, and won't be impacted much, but we will because on a lonely Fla beach, it's just us and a cop or ranger.

I agree that the "private lands" removal was a red herring. That ruse happens all the time.

 

[seeker41]

update, wording of the bill is still bad but...................

from Jerry Hitson (FMDAC):

Update from Alan Hayes:

The effects of SB 868 have been misunderstood. This bill simply extends current law to areas in which the State currently does not have jurisdiction. The extension is very small in scope in order to cover areas such as those depict. These are pictures of land owned by Lake County Water Authority, a political subdivision/special taxing district created by the legislature within my district. As current law is written, when this type of damage is done to the property, law enforcement’s hands are tied and they cannot take action to enforce preservation of the land or the artifacts recovered. As you can see from the pictures, the bill is addressing unauthorized excavation and exploration on these types of lands.

This bill does not impact private lands, the ability of individuals to use a metal detector on our beaches, or any of the activities these hobby enthusiasts legally enjoy now.

My office has been in contact with staff from detectingrights.com. and clarified what the bill actually addresses. Hopefully, if you belong to that organization, you will be receiving an email soon. I would also encourage you to visit the updated post on their website at detectingrights.com and look at the tab which states items requiring immediate attention.

I understand where some of the confusion on this bill may have originated. The original language of the bill had a drafting error that was caught and corrected during the first committee stop. The bill originally read “any lands” when it should have read “any state owned lands”, so it was never my intent to prohibit anyone from doing anything on their own land. It was never my intention to create overly burdensome regulations, and I do believe in keeping government small, but when I see in my own district where our shorelines are being washed away by someone with a “borrowed” garden hose, or holes are being dug deep enough for someone to stand in, and all this damage must be repaired, I need to take action.

I do appreciate the posts and your letting me know this concern was out there and that word was spreading regarding the potential impact of this bill. Hopefully, I have been able to address your concerns and create a better understanding of what this legislation is all about.


Staff Analysis for SB 868
[www.flsenate.gov]
/Fc8PqfZE=PL=7glAi5D5WcObC2RU74=%7C11/Public/Bills/
0800-0899/0868/Analysis/2012s0868.pre.bta.PDF
News updates from Task Force For Metal Detecting Rights Foundation

 

[ScubaFinder]

Got this via email, no idea who the author is.

FLORIDA'S ASSAULT ON TREASURE HUNTERS AND DETECTORISTS



It’s no secret to Florida treasure hunters that the state archaeologist of the DHR (Division of Historical Resources), do not care for the treasure hunting and metal detecting community in Florida. Over the years the DHR has made it increasingly more difficult for shipwreck salvors to recover lost treasures from Florida state waters, and over the last few years will not even issue search permits to conduct surveys along the coast.

In 1982 the State of Florida suffered a major blow when the Supreme Court of the United States ruled in favor of Treasure Salvors, Inc. and ordered the state to return all of the hundreds of millions of dollars of treasure that the state had confiscated from salvors working in the Florida Keys.

Famed treasure hunter Mel Fisher and his crew had recovered the treasure from the Spanish Shipwreck, Nuestra Senora de Atocha. The Atocha had sunk in a storm in 1622 off the Florida Keys, while on its return trip to Spain after plundering the treasures of South America. The State of Florida only had legal bills from a protracted eight year battle with Mel Fisher.

In the mean time the State of Florida would have to settle for its 20% take on the treasures recovered by other permitted treasure salvors working the rest of the 1622 fleet that sank up and down the Keys, as well as the operations recovering treasure from the combined treasure fleets that went down along Florida’s east coast during a hurricane in 1715.

The State of Florida even had at one time, a program called the Isolated Finds program”, this program required armature archeologists, treasure hunters and metal detectorist to report any finds to the DHR for cataloging in its data base, and in turn would assign ownership rights to the finder unless the find was culturally significant.

The DHR did away with this program back in 2005, sighting that the DHR could not afford to continue the program. At the same time they passed a law making it illegal to recover any manmade object 50 years old or older from Florida waterways. The DHR claimed that they were concerned that arrow head collectors were recovering Indian artifacts from Florida Rivers and water ways.

In the latest of what is perceived to be attack on the Florida treasure hunting community, the DHR has successfully moved a couple of Bills over to the Florida State Legislature. In November of 2011, Senate Bill 868, and House Bill 591 were both filed in the State legislature.

On February 16th, 2012 HB 591 titled Archeological Sites and Specimens, passed the house with a vote of 118 to 0

Senate Bill 868 will go before the Budget Committee and the Budget Subcommittee on Transportation, Tourism, and Economic Development Appropriations later today.

The Senate Bill, also titled “Archeological Sites and Specimens” sounds innocent enough, and after all most of the Florida treasure hunters that I know basically agree that archeological sites and artifacts should be protected.

News of this legislation has stirred up a hornets’ nest amongst the metal detecting and treasure hunting community, and folks are just plum angry that the state of Florida is trying to take away our rights to pursue the hobby of metal detecting and the livelihood of the many professional treasure hunters in the state.

Many believe that the State has kept this issue quiet in an attempt to blindside the treasure hunting and metal detecting community, effectively silencing our combined voices, and keeping the public out of the legislative process. After all, the legislature has been working this issue for more than four months now, and no one in the community was even aware of it until just yesterday. This in and of itself raises red flags and just fuels the fire that once again, the people of Florida do not have a voice in our own Government.

So, the question is how this legislation is really going to affect the treasure hunting and metal detecting community. Are we still going to be able to spend a leisurely afternoon in a school yard, Local Park or on the beach with the family looking for lost coins and pull tabs? Are tourists from Ohio that show up at the beach with a metal detector going to be slapped in handcuffs and hauled off to jail? We don’t really know just yet. But one thing is for sure. The power of the Florida DHR is expanding significantly, and for this treasure hunter, that’s not a good thing.

treasurenet has reviewed both the House and Senate Bills, and there is not much difference between the two. So without bogging this down with a lot of legalese, just what is it that our State Government is attempting to accomplish with this legislation? The simple answer is that the politicians are not trying to accomplish a damn thing other than to make themselves look good and feel good about protecting our cultural heritage. Let’s face it; politicians today don’t give a rat’s ass about the public interest until just before election time. A couple of esteemed archeologist come to them and say we must protect the past for future generations, pass this legislation and the sheeple will love you for it.

The real question is what is the DHR attempting to do with this legislation? That answer is a little more sinister than that of the useless politicians. So, just what is it that the DHR gets in this deal?

First and foremost the DHR gets an unprecedented expansion of power over state owned lands and that includes most all of the Florida beaches and state-owned sovereignty submerged lands. But wait, there’s more; they also gain the power to grant permits, designate land as a state archeological site or landmark zones on what they describe as a “political subdivision”. Hey that sounds OK until you know just what a political subdivision is. It basically includes counties, cities, towns, villages, townships, districts (to include School Distrects), authorities, and other public corporations and entities whether organized and existing under charter or general law. [Section 22.03(5), Florida Statutes.].

The second really disturbing part of this legislation is that the DHR will now have the power to levy fines, and lucky you, no court date since the best you will get is a administrative hearing before, you got it the DHR. So if you find an eight real coin from the 1700’s on Melbourne Beach and take it home with you, it’s a first degree misdemeanor with a $500 a day administrative fine and forfeiture of the coin. Sure just sell it on eBay, the buyer is in for the same treatment.

God help you if the DHR has designated some little town like Satellite Beach, or for that matter the entire barrier island as an archeological landmark or zone and you find that same eight real coin, you have now committed a third degree felony, good by metal detector, and the car you used to get to the beach. Hello bubba your new cell mate, and don’t fall for that old line about do you want to be the husband or the wife. It’s a unhappy ending for you no matter how you cut it.

The only really sound thing we observed was that DHR is prohibited from designating private property as an archeological site without the land owner’s written permission. However, if a landowner does give permission to designate his land as such, he will have to get a permit from the DHR just to dig on his own land. From what I know of reading the volumes of requirements for just a search permit along the coast, the land owner will have to have a full time state certified archeologist on his staff just to plant a garden.

OK, enough of the bad news. The good news is that they don’t specifically mention metal detectors anyplace in this legislation, so if you want to hit the beach with the detector I think you will be ok just so long as you don’t pick up anything older than 50 years old.

The bottom line on this, is this legislation does nothing more for the protection of Florida’s cultural heritage than the laws that are already on the books. All it does if give vast amounts of power to a state agency with no elected officials to hold accountable, and creates a protective screen for all the cowardly politicians that are so willing to differ power to a bunch of ivory tower bureaucrats.

Should you as a metal detectorist or treasure hunter be upset about this legislation? Damn right! However, property owners should be equally upset that the state can declare “abandon property” as property of the state without any due process. This is a violation of the Constitution of the United States of America.

Wake up America!

 

[seeker41]

scubafinder,
thank you for expressing my feelings/concerns!!!!!!!! i hope the fight is not over and we can get organized with very good legal representation!
chuck.