Placing a value on the French monument removed by the Spanish and lost at Sea.

[seekerGH]

Ron was not allowed to touch painting even in the glass case, so it was hard to get better photos with the lights.

Perhaps consider why? Actually, I am a bit surprised they even let him in dressed like that. What was that hair slicked back with, and you want that on the glass?!?!? gloves? think about it..

If the painting of the monument GME discovered went for this, then could the Monument be worth 50-60 million?

You are funny! You are claiming this is from an unidentified shipwreck, so no provenance, and in reality, does not look like the painting, which is very angular, and certainly not the other replicas on display at museum and parks. You have no ships manifest that lists this as cargo? You claim to have a manifest that staes which vessel it was NOT on, why havent you found a manifest that it was on? Perhaps check the Spanish archives.
Simply pointing at an engraving and making a claim of authenticity?
In any case, unless you can claim provenance (which if you do, the French or Spanish will claim the artefact, it is just another stone coat of arms, albeit from a shipwreck, so lets go for $600.

The painting has value, not because of the subject, but because of the painter. I am surprised you had not connected that. You wonder what unidentified artefacts such as cannon are worth...easy...scrap. Cannon are laying around everywhere because the cost of recovery and conservation is more than they are worth.

It is always mildly entertaining the value that salvagers come up with for the recoveries, especially ones that swear the wreck is unidentified. Why not use $500 million like everyone else?

With all of this 'research', why is the wreck unidentifiable?

Good Luck!

 

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[Black Duck]

For sure it was on land 100 %

Here is Ron in New York

Yes Ron did a great job in NY and put the effort out there to get GME the information we needed, for this part of the puzzle
Thanks Ron for the hard work and dedication

 

[seekerGH]

I really doubt if this qualifies as " effort' by a salvor as defined by Admiralty law...IF you consider this as 'effort' well....I wish you luck in Court!

 

[Blak bart]

Hey bobby have you ever considered somthing along the lines of the king tut exhibition. It travels all over the world on display for everyone to enjoy. I have read that it is in constant demand and always generating money for those involved. The intellectual rights could be worth quite a bit of money, pictures , muesum exhibitions, video and movie rights, etc.etc...could be put on tour in france, spain, and florida generating cash for all parties. How bout say 3000000 $ down to recoup some expenses back and a certain amount every year after that. Put it on tour like the rolling stones. A piece that historically significant would be in constant demand. A virtual cash cow.

 

[Black Duck]

Thanks we will look into it

 

[seekerGH]

Hey bobby have you ever considered somthing along the lines of the king tut exhibition.

In consideration of other attempts in shipwreck recovery exhibits, look at the Titanic exhibit, which filed for bankruptcy.

For another example, look to Odyssey Marine's exhibit, which never made it off the ground, and has been relegated to mom and pop barn exhibits. In the best of times, that traveling circus only lost about $5000 per month.

I guess you could try to sell small plush replicas of the monument, given the importance, I am certain that a miniature replica would be on everyone Xmas list.

How bout say 3000000 $ down to recoup some expenses back and a certain amount every year after that. Put it on tour like the rolling stones.

You would want $3 million down ( to recoup SOME expenses?!?!) Where on Earth did you get this scenario from? did you miss a few decimal places? Looking for $3000 down would be a stretch, more like you pay them up front for the cost of the exhibit, and ask for 10% of proceeds from the exhibit ( following OME business precedent).

As you do not own any of the artifacts, perhaps it is best to let the owners decide what to do with them?

 

[Blak bart]

Eye eye skipper, it was a suggestion only. And im pretty sure the owners will do what they please who ever they are. Currently it looks like these artifacts reside in posidens and mother natures owenership. There are examples of failure and success in every industry and I surely dont have the answers to all the questions. So enlighten us with an idea of what you think should happen with these artifacts in a perfect world. Lets forget about who owns what and get back to the value of these objects. Why dont you let us know exactly what you think should happen in this situation. Do you think that gme should be left completely out of everything ? Do you think florida should have complete control over the site ? Do you think these artifacts should be left where they lay ? Do you think that france and or spain should come and take control of everything ? Please let us know how you really feel about the situation. Because aside from stating a bunch of facts and info from other cases, and a bunch of personal interpretations of those facts and case examples, I havent seen you personally take a position. For or against gme, for or against the state of florida, for or against france, for or against spain. So without stating your position one way or another I can only infer your position from the context of your posts. If I were to take a guess I would say you were pro unesco, pro asa, pro france, pro spain, pro florida, and anti gme, and anti treasure salvage. Now correct me if those inferences are wrong (and im sure you will) but that is the feeling I get from your posts. I will say that I hope gme can win there case and that much of the laws regarding treasure salvage will be reviewed and amended and modified. So in other words I am on gme's side !! The crystal ball I use seems to be the same model you use and mine seems to be as cloudy as yours is on this subject. What is it that gets you so passionate about this particular case ? You seem to get pretty fired up over it. I mean no disrespect seeker you seem very smart and passionate about the subject, im just wondering why you feel the way you do. Just looking for an honest heart felt position from you. Im not gonna gain anything from this at all so it dosent really affect me. But I would like to see gme win and if so maybe the laws will start to change concerning all treasure salvage and thats my reason for sideing with gme, and making suggestions such as a touring treasure exhibition, and offering help in any way shape or form. One fellow treasure hunter helping another for the general benifit of all treasure hunters. We need gme to win this case and maybe this case can be cited by people like you but in a favorable light for treasure salvors. Thats my horse in the race. So back on subject, what do you feel the value is on these artifacts without a care of who owns them. I will state first that I am not an expert and could be way off with an estimate but im not afraid to take a guess. I think 10+million. Im usually way off and and very dissapointed at actual selling prices. So seeker what do you actually think the monument and other artifacts combined would bring on todays market ?
Respectfully
Black Bart

 

[capt dom]

Can anyone help us put a value on the monument GME discovered last year? We have documentation proving this is the monument that was placed near Fort Caroline in 1562, it was later removed by the Spanish when the fort was captured and lost at sea.

We need a professional opinion/appraisal on the value of this monument as well as the bronze cannons that we discovered last year. Attached is a little info.

View attachment 1445550View attachment 1445551View attachment 1445552View attachment 1445553View attachment 1445554

The best way of figuring out what this thing is worth is to estimate what the government is going to make it cost your team, investors, and you to litigate it and then add one dollar or two francs... them punt

 

[Black Duck]

50-60 million for what we know about

 

[enrada]

seekerGH
What has happened, the cat got your tongue? Since Jan 2016 you have posted 525 times. Like more or less once a day. Do you not have an answer for Black Bart?
Nothing pisses me off more than someone full of negativity and never suggesting an answer or remedy or solution to a simple question, like "what are the artifacts worth".
Just simply unmask yourself and tell us where your horse is in this race or stop posting negativity. The majority of posts to this site are informative and helpful and I enjoy this site a lot except for a few people who seem to want to ruin a good thing.

 

[seekerGH]

Since Jan 2016 you have posted 525 times. Like more or less once a day

Nothing pisses me off more than someone full of negativity and never suggesting an answer or remedy or solution to a simple question, like "what are the artifacts worth".

Since you are stalking and counting my posts, take some time and actually read some of them, as they are full of information on this from the beginning. (and I did provide my thoughts on the valuation) Just so you are aware, this subject is running on 2 different topics.

I see all sorts of valuations of shipwreck, $500 million, $1 Billion, and such, where it is very easy to determine the value is significantly less. Providing these types of valuations to the press of the public really doesnt help anything nor anyone.

A value of a painting by a famous artist, has little bearing on the value of the subject that was painted, so basing a valuation of a piece of incomplete stone on a painting seems a stretch. I see that Andy Warhol's Campbel's soup can is worth $12 million, does that make a can of soup worth $50 million?

When the subject of a traveling show came up, it was easy to note very relevant examples of said follies, especially the Odyssey Marine show, which at best made $3,000 for the month, and the Titanic show is in fact bankrupt. Is that negative or realistic?
There cannon and shipwreck artifacts everywhere, why pay to go and see more? There is a replica of the entire monument at a park, but one would go and pay to see a piece of one? Again, negative or realistic?

Because aside from stating a bunch of facts and info from other cases, and a bunch of personal interpretations of those facts and case examples, I havent seen you personally take a position

Well, that is fair, but why take a position, especially when details are unknown? Facts and case law from other shipwrecks are certainly relevant. What I do not understand, is when a salvor goes on a public forum, and vilifies the opposition, be it the legal council, the Court, the State, or a Country. Has that ever, ever worked in their favor?

In regards to the valuation, I really dont know how many artifacts their are, and of course, the identity is unknown. On the Cannon, the cost of conservation is significant, so I would consider the cost to recover, including legal fees and conservation. In reality, cannon are everywhere, so unless there is something very, very special, it is a wash on the cost. Getting paid for the recovery effort, well, there is that, but costs dont cover sweat equity.

On the column, so far, it looks like just on piece, not the entire column. There is little precedent for a column like this, so it is difficult to determine a value. Displayed a a piece of the monument would be of interest to whom? The Society has an interest, but really they dont appear to have funds for any purchase. Getting paid for the recovery, again. does not appear to be too much effort to raise it and not much to conserve it. The column was a snapshot in time, that has some historical value, but in reality, I see little interest, so that is why I feel it is worth less that $50 thousand. (recently the oldest known stone tablet of the 10 commandments was auctioned, was about 1500 years old, for $250,000)

The issue here is precedent, and the State of Florida and France are here to set a precedent, not on the value of the recovery, but on the value of the case law. Florida has rescinded the permit, and France has brought on Goold, so the stakes on the precedents are high.

Notable case law would be the Brother Jonathan, to which the salvors won against California all the way to the US Supreme Court, yet even though losing, California never allowed for a recovery permit, and placed the site on the Historical Register afterwards, thus preventing any further recovery and limiting sales of what was already awarded the salvors by the Courts.

 

[Blak bart]

Reasonable enough for me. I can respect your opinions, but I do disagree with your assessment on value of the artifacts, and especially the value of intellectual rights wich could include a managed museum tour of artifacts, among many other types of marketing approaches. Although you point to the failed attempts at this type of marketing there have been many that have succeeded including the tut example wich I alluded too. I dont remember mentioning those failed ventures that you brought up. But , it is important to make aware that not all of these ventures succeed, and I can take that as a wise warning. I too dont see merit in one side villifieing the other, but I can see how frustration can lead to both sides being guilty of this. After all we are all human here. And human nature leads to this type of behavior. Im certain that we are ALL GUILTY OF THIS. There is also very little to be gained from personal back and forth attacks. What im saying is it doesn't matter what someone slicks there hair back with. Those thoughts that you provided us with on valuation earlier I took as a sarcastic jab at treasure salvors in general. When you give a value of six hundred dollars to fivehundred million dollars it smacks of belittling sarcasm or complete ignorance of the subject matter. Forgive me for being confused if that was not sarcasm, are they worthless trash or priceless artifacts ?? Now we have a more serious and less sarcastic estimate of less than 50000$ wich I feel is to low. You could very well be right but I will wager that more experts in the field would side with me in saying that the group of artifacts as we know them now would be worth far more than that. Anyway thats how negotiation works one party starts way low and the other party starts way high and an agreement is made somewhere in between. I chose 3000000$ because that was what I read was spent by gme so far in there efforts. So thats where on earth I got those numbers from, and I dont think I missed any decimal places. Readily available info as far as I know. Im assuming that the ome business precident is odyssey marine ? In that case I dont and didnt recommend that model that was your conjuring. As far as taking a position..... well if you dont take one one way or the other no one knows your true feelings on the subject and what point of view you represent. You say "why take one" I say why not take one when so many details are known !! I guess not sideing one way or another is great if you plan to flip flop and play it safe, you know .....you can jump on the winning wagon when the time is right. You know what I dont even have to go and see any artifacts in person all I have to do is scan the web for that. I do enjoy taking my kid to the museum though. Especially mels or mclarty or smithsonian when the tut exhibition is there. I think that maybe you got insulted or somone rubbed you the wrong way somewhere in the mist of multiple threads on this subject. It seems that everthing was pretty objective and polite up until a certain point and then things got cofusing along the line as to your intentions. If thats the case then man that really sucks for all of us here. Any way I personally respect your opinions, research, and ideas on the subject. I also love a great debate, and you make good points that should be considered by all. I think that most of us are turned off by what might be thought of as belittling, condescending, or overly sarcastic remarks. I could be wrong and it may just be your style of communication. That combined with a lack of a firm position leads me to believe that you may not have a favorable view of treasure salvors, or there practices, and may have other motives or reasons to be here on this site. I have no qualms about asking blunt questions wether they get answered or not so here it goes. Do you work for the state of florida? do you work in the field of archeology? Are you a lawyer? Do you work for a law enforcement agency? This is a treasure hunters web site so if you are anti treasure hunting you can expect to do some sparring with those of us who consider ourselves treasure hunters, and thats fine with me i love to spar. Used to split one pair of gloves with my buddy, inevitably some one would get hit with a bare knuckle punch. Thats why I asked for a position just wanted to know if you are pro treasure hunting, or anti treasure hunting ?


P.S. I highly doubt your being stalked I think enrada just read your profile stats.

 

[seekerGH]

I would like to thank you for a civil conversation.

Not to minimize your post, but lets begin with this statement, as it is a foundation.

Thats why I asked for a position just wanted to know if you are pro treasure hunting, or anti treasure hunting ?

Define treasure hunting in the marine environment. I am curious where you find the distinction between treasure hunting and, what... marine archaeology?

1. Is a treasure hunter a pirate, that just finds something, or takes something regardless of the ownership, and sells it for the gold or silver content, leaving the less valuables behind. Is this your definition of treasure hunting?

2. Is a treasure hunter one who finds a wreck, looks at the artifacts, and recovers them without context, then tries to sell them with a story. Is this your definition of treasure hunting?

3. If one found a wreck on the bottom of the ocean, determined ownership, then mapped the wrecksite, locating the artifacts before recovery, determined ownership, gained permission, then properly recovered, preparing and conserving the artifact? Is this your definition of treasure hunting?

That is the foundation of this issue. So, to answer you question, and put the rest of you post in context, I would have to understand your definition.

As we are all aware, an artifact out of context are worth what it is made of, so case in point, given that GME has mapped the site, and done extensive research on the artifacts, are they treasure hunters?

The CEO of Odyssey Marine, Mark Gordon stated that Odyssey has NEVER been in the treasure hunting business, so please let me know what your definition of treasure hunting is vs marine archaeology in regards to a recovery.

 

[Black Duck]

https://www.si.edu/mci/english/learn_more/taking_care/appraisal.html

Thank you for all input, The monument alone is a true and real ( not copy) historical item that was involved in changing history and the outcome of what Florida is today,
There are comps out there that I will share at the right time.
GME dose not work for free,and we do not work for cost, what would be the point, nor do archaeologist that do not like Treasure hunters or Exploration companies they get paid very well I may add.

GME is an Exploration-Survey-Identification and recovery company, but you can call us what ever you like, I will not dance around the issue we are looking for
Treasure, goods,explanations,research etc. And yes WE SELL TREASURE AND ARTIFACTS, so what,How many of these items that were intended to be sold anyway would be put in a basement of a museum and never be seen?
GME documents everything" even modern items like rockets, shrimp boats, tires, cables, what ever it is.
The information is what is important here, being able to complete the project in full and have the data ready for others to use.

Just a note: The sites can not be made historical sites after the fact legally, and the State of Florida held back information on what sites they did know about North of us " French sites"
Why do you think they would do that ?
Here are two Letters on a past subject, and I have many more

 

[seekerGH]

The sites can not be made historical sites after the fact legally,

Sorry, but that is not true. A site can be nominated and placed on the list at any time.

State level:

If, in the course of your underwater explorations, you find a site that might be a potential candidate for a new Underwater Archaeological Preserve, you are encouraged to nominate it for consideration. Underwater Preserves - Division of Historical Resources - Florida Department of State

Federal Level.

Where to Start (How to list a property)
The National Register nomination process usually starts with your State Historic Preservation Office* (SHPO). Contact your SHPO or check their web page for National Register information, research materials, and necessary forms to begin the nomination process. If the property is on federal or tribal land, then the process starts with the Federal Preservation Office or Tribal Preservation Office. (More on FPO and TPOs.)

How are Properties Evaluated? Since the NPS already has a replica of the monument in a park, this would likely be the place to go.

To be considered eligible, a property must meet the National Register Criteria for Evaluation. This involves examining the property’s age, integrity, and significance.

• Age and Integrity. Is the property old enough to be considered historic (generally at least 50 years old) and does it still look much the way it did in the past?

• Significance. Is the property associated with events, activities, or developments that were important in the past? With the lives of people who were important in the past? With significant architectural history, landscape history, or engineering achievements? Does it have the potential to yield information through archeological investigation about our past?

National Register Listing Process

• Nominations can be submitted to your SHPO from property owners, historical societies, preservation organizations, governmental agencies, and other individuals or groups. Official National Register Nomination Forms are downloadable or from your State Historic Preservation Office. National Register Bulletins can also provide guidance on how to document and evaluate certain types of properties. Sample Nominations provide additional useful information.

https://www.nps.gov/nr/national_register_fundamentals.htm

Here are two Letters on a past subject, and I have many more

I dont see any letters

 

[Blak bart]

Touché seeker if we were in fenceing class the coach would congratulate you on a well placed Perry. Deflecting my question with another question. Classic debating tactic too. Works in law cases as well if the judge lets it fly. Ill bite though. Treasure hunters derive profit from the sale of recovered artifacts and treasure. Archeologists have taken an oath to not profit from the sale of recovered artifacts or treasure. I think and I could be off on this fact, that there are actually 8 rules that they are required to faithfully abide by to keep there oath. That would be the main and most important difference between the 2. Out of your 3 multiple choices I would say that number 3 is the closest one that I could agree to..... except you left out the part about the selling and profiting from those recovered artifacts and there intellectual rights for futher marketing, you know what I mean right ? The book deals, the movies and documentaries, the museum tours, the seminars and guest speaking gigs, the plush little monument replicas and tshirts (one of your better ideas) etc. And so on. Now dont take credit for the t-shirts, thats all me. Lol!!! Just imagine if mel had trademarked his motto "today's the day" remember those" lifes good t-shirts " from the 80s ! I live my life as a treasure hunter everyday. Anything of value that I can recover for little or no cost and by obeying the laws put in place by local ,state ,federal, and maritime authority constitutes treasure to me, if I can profit from it someway. You can see for yourself where I hunt and what I consider treasure by the many different forums that I post my finds /recoveries in here on t net. And there is a difference between finds and recoveries if you treasure hunt. One comes as randomly as a summertime thunderstorm, and one comes from careful research, planning and execution of that plan. I have a gemstone mine in nc, I harvest and mill exotic hardwoods that are slated by the county or permit for removal, I dive all legally collectable shells under my recreational limit here in the keys, I metal detect beach and shallow water were legaly permitted, I dig and beachcomb antique and collectable bottles,I work with an established estate sale team here in south florida, and yes I m affiliated with an underwater salvage team with an active admiralty claim. To name a few of my treasure hunting activities. My day job is fisherman both commercially and privately. I consider fishing very close to treasure hunting and derive profit from all of it. All my threads are easy to find. One thing I wont do is discuss treasure hunting or businesses that involve partners here on a public forum. Thats just my choice. Treasure is in the eye of the beholder so what is the treasure that you seek seekr ?? Adventure and exploration ? Gold and silver gems and jewels ? History and cultural preservation ? Fame and notoriety ? I showed you mine now you show me yours kinda thing going on now. Did you ever consider the possibility that maybe these artifacts were actually abandoned ? Hey boys we gotta lighten the load or were gonna go down !! Man the pumps, throw over the canon , anchors , and stone pillars or we're gonna capsize. Thats not enough throw everything of weight over or were doomed!! Boy cap if we hadnt thrown it all overboard we would surely have perished. And thus your debri field and no wreck. You seem to think that no one would be interested in these artifacts. Do you remember that piece of toast with the image of jesus christ on it.
I would have never thought that would even sell at all. So....... you never know. Im all done here, I will no longer highjack this thread waxing philosophical about what it means to be a treasure hunter. My filabustering is over and I yeild the floor to others who can help with valuation. I think 10+ million but I just dont know, thats for artifacts that are known to us now. It is a tuff one to estimate and I have no basis other than gut feeling. Who knows about the intellectual thing in todays day and age. I sure do hope you win your case bobby and these laws are reviewed and amended. Man I hope that number of 50-60 million happens for you too. wow !!! That wold be great !!! ARCC you said it very well. Seeker I wish you luck in your treasure hunts and adventures too if thats what your really here for.

P.S. dont get mad folks when I use the old popcorn and arguing heads imogi. Its to remind us that we have gotten off topic and im mildly entertained by the back and forth arguing. Wich I am now guilty of. My apologies

 

[seekerGH]

Well, you did ask the question, and it is a foundation of the argument. I just wondered what you consider as the difference between treasure hunting and whatever else. This is especially relevant on a recovery, as an artifact without a story is worth far less that one with one. I have no issues with underwater recoveries, I just want to make sure that they are done properly. There have been far too many black eyes to this business, and as a result, more and more is getting shut down, with Spain getting much more involved.
This makes it more expensive and onerous to continue recoveries.

If it makes any sense, I am certainly pro-recovery. My model is to be funded, rather than to rely on funding the adventure (and my life) through sales of the recovery.

Looking through this thread, many others have questioned the valuation, especially of the cannon. I was not being flippant on the value of the cannon, nor the stone piece. I really dont see a big market for the cannon, hence the $30,000 to $50,000 value, but no where near the value of $1 million for a cannon.

One the monument, again, I really do not see that much interest, save for the Ribault Society, in the stone. A likely place would be the Park or the Museum in France, but neither have much funding. I also do not see interest where people would travel or pay to see it or a cannon. The story is you have a piece of a stone column that Ribault setup, and either was taking back, or was captured by Spain. I dont see ownership other than France or Spain. The French were a very small group who were in Florida for a very short time, so historically, I really dont think a signficant story.

On the valuation, I really was not being flippant at $50,000. I just do not see it as very significant to an institution or private owner. "This is part of a column that Ribault set up in Florida to lay claim for France" is not really a good bragging story, but then again, who knows. $50 to $60 million, well, who would fork over $50 million for that piece of stone, that cannot be a very large group?

I am not aware of what other artifacts have been recovered or located to date.

The issue of the permit being revoked is of significant concern to me, especially in regards to my first paragraph, and should be of concern to others in the business. It is unclear why it was revoked. From the Court document, it appears the permit allowed for some test pits, correct? The video shows extensive use of blowers to expose the cannon. Is this what the violation was based on? Blowers are commonly used, so if it was, this should be of concern.

I am very curious as to what $3 million to date has been spent on? That is a lot of recovery effort, and from what I understand, there hasnt been any recovery.

Did you ever consider the possibility that maybe these artifacts were actually abandoned

Considering where that stone would have been loaded on a ship, that would have been very difficult to toss overboard. Landing next to a cannon you tossed overboard, well. I think that can be ruled out.

 

[Blak bart]

Very well possible you could be spot on !! Right now posiden guards the gates and mother nature rules the roost !!

 

[seekerGH]

I think a few attorneys are ruling the roost right now.

There has been no hijack of the thread, but simply much needed information to ascertain valuation. Valuation is based on provenance, or lack thereof.
Ownership issues are certainly part of a valuation, as are costs, and the ability to sell.

On the value.

Sitting on the bottom, the value is $0.

Under the Law of Finds, the salvor gets a percentage of the value of the recovered cargo. This recovery, while it has been found, it has not been recovered. There is no risk to the salvor to recover. There is no possession of the recovery by the salvor as it has not been recovered.

Under the Law of Salvage. There would have to be a defined shipwreck, and/or shipwreck area determined to grant the Admiralty claim. Unidentified is certainly an option, but reduces the value of the artifacts. A comprehensive list of the items would need to be in place before a Court would make a determination on ownership.

Currently, looking at the video, the cannon and the stone appear to be French. If this was the wreck of a Spanish ship taking spoils from the fort to Cuba, then there should be a mix of Spanish cannon. (but then it would be sovereign Spanish) At the time, the only French vessels transporting the columns would be sovereign French. I have not heard of the Spanish losing a vessel in these accords.

The salvor has claimed that the artifacts found do not match the manifest of the Trinite, but Ribaults fleet consisted of 7 vessels which were lost in that hurricane.
Ribault lead a powerful fleet consisting of his 32-gun flagship, Trinité, the 29-gun royal galleon Emérillon, and five other war, supply, and dispatch ships.
It is known that there were other columns being transported, and the fleet was scattered along the Florida Coast in the hurricane. Would stone columns have been transported on the warships or perhaps a supply ship? I know if I had been the military commander, where I would have kept the columns.

Have the manifests of all 7 vessels been reviewed or provided?

2 plus 2 still equals 4.

 

[Black Duck]

I will take this foremother post to clear this up.

Ok fair enough, let me explain,The State of Florida illegally revoked our permit, there was NO violation other than what the state did. We followed all the rules to the letter. And I will add we had the proper permits and permission to bring up artifacts, by both Tim Parsons and Kerry Post. "In Writing !"
The 1A-31 permit still allows the use of blowers, its in the statue the law. Even though we were not required to use them.
There was no Violation by GME, Only by the Secretary of State of Florida and Tim Parsons

Proven means right now I can prove and have proven its not the Trinite, The case is not over yet and France now needs to prove its the Trinity

It is not known and you have no proof that there were columns on the Trinity or any other ship from 1565, Because there were no columns on these ships from 1565.
Please provide proof of this lie John Debry and Chuck Meade are spreading, just saying they are making statements that are not true. "Pony up"

Yes we have the manifest and nothing we have found match's what was on these ships

As far as clean hands, the only dirty doings and dirty hands here is the Secretary of State of Florida, Tim Parsons and France and RPA archaeologist.
I want to say these post are for the State to see, maybe they will understand what they did was illegal and wrong.

Seeker you should tell everyone who you are " man up"