Placing a value on the French monument removed by the Spanish and lost at Sea.

[Smithbrown]

Do you have a picture of your $46,000 cannon- that must have been something special!

 

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[Black Duck]

Hey Black Duck: You might want to contact Steve Condella in Key West regarding your guns. He's known as the Cannon King of Key West. He has a huge collection of bronze guns and goes all over the globe chasing them down.


Meanwhile, I don't think most of our fellow travelers here on this forum are completely aware of just how momentous your discoveries are. The guns, especially the one I have examined in detail via your U/W video, are remarkable. The monument itself is, in my book, priceless. The combination makes them a national treasure worthy of the Smithsonian for certain, or the Fort Caroline National Monument at the very least. These are not common in any sense, but represent, very firmly, the first non-secular drama in North America, very well documented, with dimensions in Europe and the New World simultaneously.


I've added some illustrations of what the actual monument might have looked like based on Bill Seliger's drawing and the further description by Guilliame Rouffi as recorded by the Spanish and handed down to us by Jeanette Thurber-Connor. The markups on the gun are from a similar cannon recorded by Mendel Peterson in one of his Green Book volumes.


At the Fort Caroline National Monument there are two bronze guns, neither having provenence with the Huguenots. One is from the San Martin (Green Cabin Wreck), and the other one I have no info on, but neither have the obvious details as your own. While the monument(s) have been recreated by the DAR, and stylized by DeBry's second-hand illustrations of Le Moyne's work, NOBODY has actually seen one until now, 450 years later! Lots of folks have looked, but nobody had found them/it. BTW, DeBry's illustrations were published in 1589 I think, several decades after the fact, and so far as I know, Le Moyne's actual drawings have yet to be found.


I think the GME success has driven the artifact salvage/shipwreck recovery agenda hosted by the high-ground moralists over a cliff. Shall Americans suffer because of their philosophy, or shall Americans persist as they have in the past relying on solid scientific methods and proven tactics? It seems that the only argument here is one centered upon motives rather than actual results. Do the work. Get paid for the work. Key word is "WORK"; not "PRAYER", not "PHILOSOPHY", not "OPINION". Florida government has tied itself up with its own rope and I don't really believe that those of us being governed had any intentional part in making that rope.


When Drake sacked St. Augustine, he noted five French cannon at the fort. De Gourges made no remarks about the cannon at the Spanish occupation of the former Fort Caroline that I know of.


BTW, I still think the Triniti is at Pad 39B.

View attachment 1446351
View attachment 1446352

Terry the monument with the 1561 was at Charles fort and taken by the Spanish and then taken to Spain as a prize "maybe u new that I am sure"
That would have only left one monument the one we found that was on land when the Spanish took over Fort Caroline and the area. The Trinite is at dead lake no question, the map we have from 1565 and the captured French mens statement proves this, but you are right there is material at pad 39 noted by Doug Armstrong and You Terry I believe.

We found around 80 targets (anomalies)in that area of 39B when we were testing some equipment but never dove them. And never did a full survey, As the problems with the State came up.

The ancient painting 18 x 26 centimeters of the column by Le Moyne in 1564 was discovered in 1901 at the Chateau de Ganay. and is now in the New Your Library. This is a perfect match of the column GME discovered. The column Le Moyne painted was on land at the time near Fort Caroline, one year before the Spanish took the Fort and area over.

So just this again proves the Trinite is not what GME found.

Terry you do good work

 

[Black Duck]

Smith brown I miss spoke "sorry" it was 42,000

 

[Black Duck]

You will also notice in the bottom corner of auction 14 is the same cannon, nothing fancy but it maybe the only bronze cannon found in the SW DR,

 

[Darren in NC]

Very nice, Bobby. I'm really glad you got that price. I do hope you can get a high valuation on the other items you found. Keep us informed. We're cheering for you.

 

[Black Duck]

Very nice, Bobby. I'm really glad you got that price. I do hope you can get a high valuation on the other items you found. Keep us informed. We're cheering for you.

Thanks Darren,

Because of the story and the connecting painting from the same time period these items are priceless,even though its NOT from the Trinite, it is connected to Fort Caroline and the Huguenots. By the fact these items where on land.

So why the State of Florida would rather them set in this hazardous environment and waste away rather then let the company that had a legal permit, that discovered them, documented them, completed more permits in 3 years then have ever even been completed ever in the History of Florida is beyond me.

Whats worse is this Governor is allowing this department and the SEC. of State to hurt small business. NOT GOOD PEOPLE.

 

[Smithbrown]

Thanks for the pictures.

 

[seekerGH]

Seeker the shield was not bronze, it was made of stone marble this we have documentation of, what you have is not a real refernce,if you do you research you will see that 5 came over in 1562, 3 went back to France in 1562 and one was captured in 1564 and taken to Spain, that leaves one, the one GME found,
All what I say I have original ref, source

I did say check the other 3 and see where they are if possible. There are several sources that claim the same thing, that it was bronze shields on the stone pillar, and several reproductions are bronze. Why would all of the reproductions, especially the one in France, and text state bronze shields?

I really doubt if they would carry 5 entire stone monuments over on the ship.

The National Park Service monument: https://www.nps.gov/timu/learn/historyculture/foca_ribaultmonument.htm



French Fleet History

The replica column Dieppe Castle in France is stone with bronze plate.

Lecture dedicated to Jean Ribault invites Florida to Dieppe, (...) - Consulat Général de France à Miami

The images you have provided from the bottom do not appear to show marble, as stated in the historical accounts.

Can you share your source?

Also the area is under surveillance, and off limits and we are in Federal court with France and the State of Florida right now. over this issue, so be advised that you will get boarded if anyone trying to dive sites

Matters not, under surveillance? Even with an Admiralty Arrest, you can dive and take pictures. You cannot of course remove anything, but there is no restriction on the Ocean.

 

[Black Duck]

I did say check the other 3 and see where they are if possible. There are several sources that claim the same thing, that it was bronze shields on the stone pillar, and the reproduction in place is bronze. I really doubt if they would carry 5 entire stone monuments over on the ship.

The National Park Service monument: https://www.nps.gov/timu/learn/historyculture/foca_ribaultmonument.htm

View attachment 1447163

French Fleet History

The replica column Dieppe Castle in France is stone with bronze plate.

Lecture dedicated to Jean Ribault invites Florida to Dieppe, (...) - Consulat Général de France à Miami

Can you share your source?

I can see where u may confused but
All these are not good sources, we only use original source's, the columns where marble, There is no bronze plate or other wise in original docs, I have over 80 lbs of documents on this subject alone, And GME obviously discovered the marble one from Fort Caroline, in 1564 the Spanish moved the other stone monument from Charles Fort

 

[ivan salis]

I am of the belief that the Spanish took the monument (the French coat of arms part) as "proof" that France was trying to claim their lands ...which would justify them killing the settlers as well as rebuilt and his soldiers ...it was being transshipped most likely from St Augustine along with other looted French items from Fort Caroline back to Spain ,,,the sailing route in those days was thru the Caribbean --thus it would have travelled southward from Augustine then across the ocean to Spain -- this explains why it was sunk to the south of St Augustine (near the cape) ---being the items are "war prize" Spanish items == France has no claim upon them and Spain has given up claims to shipwrecks pre 1750 as per a prior court settlement --1565 is way before 1750 --so there goes Spain's claims ..so its a good to go shipwreck

 

[Black Duck]

I can see where u may confused but
All these are not good sources, we only use original source's, the columns where marble, There is no bronze plate or other wise in original docs, I have over 80 lbs of documents on this subject alone, And GME obviously discovered the marble one from Fort Caroline, in 1564 the Spanish moved the other stone monument from Charles Fort

This is not from our research as I can not show that at this time but here are some others info. And yes it really says

marblehttps://www.accessgenealogy.com/america/first-voyage-commanded-by-jean-ribault-1562.htm

https://books.google.com/books?id=G...nepage&q=ribault 1562 marble monument&f=false

you can see my point here, these are not referenced from the original papers, and there were five ( 5) monuments brought over not 3 in 1562 not 1565,

I have done more research and have more time in this subject i am sure than any one "period" and have the docs to back it up,
Not including Bill Seligers time or Attorney at law Barry Chapman from Valdosta, Ga.
No one has the hours we have in this.

I would also like to point out that France has not won in court against GME, as i guess these arch's keep saying, also France nor the State of Florida has no proof to their claim, ( so by law they will loose because they have no case) and I might add that Chuck Meade and John de-bry have made and are making false statements and misslead the public with there incorrect information, that they have no documentation to back up there statements,in my opinion they are both amateurs and have no real field experince in real shipwreck exploration and recovery.
Just saying

 

[seekerGH]

Thats all good. I am just looking at many of the sources, and that NPS made the monument with the bronze plaques, as did the French, and questioning why they would do that if the original were solid stone.

Aside from that, from the link, you can see there is a Ribault Society in France, so they may be good to contact on the value.

Good luck.

 

[Black Duck]

Thats all good. I am just looking at many of the sources, and that NPS made the monument with the bronze plaques, as did the French, and questioning why they would do that if the original were solid stone.

Aside from that, from the link, you can see there is a Ribault Society in France, so they may be good to contact on the value.

Good luck.

Thanks Seeker, any info is helpful

GME as I have said earlier, has traced the monument made of stone with no mention of a bronze/brass plate taken by the Spanish from Charles Fort, then to Cuba then left Cuba on a ship with Captain to go to Spain. We have no info after leaving Cuba, but we do know this column had a 1561 date at the bottom as Terry Armstrong has drawn in a early comment.

 

[ropesfish]

Is there a way to get a return on investment without actually conveying the title of the artifact? As soon as a salvor sells an artifact, we get branded as being ruthless/greedy/money-hungry mere 'treasure' hunters by the opposing team -those guys who don't have to worry about making payroll, buying fuel and equipment and satisfying their investors. Museums, of course, want donations or loans with no costs borne by the museum other than security and conservation. So...what's left other than an auction, a private sale or maybe a traveling exhibit that charges admission? Finding a French or Spanish museum that wants to change their business model? I really don't know what the answer here is, but I think that some out-of-the-box thinking might be required to maximize the return on a find of this sort of rarity. It will have to be presented with a lot of accompanying context so people can understand just what this find represents, which is a very, very early turning point in the history of the Americas.
I look forward to further discussion.

There's a book idea for someone...an alternate history series...what would have happened if...the French had kept possession of La Florida, if El Cazador had made port carrying all those pesos to shore up the Spanish government in New Orleans...etc.

 

[signumops]

Thanks Seeker, any info is helpful

GME as I have said earlier, has traced the monument made of stone with no mention of a bronze/brass plate taken by the Spanish from Charles Fort, then to Cuba then left Cuba on a ship with Captain to go to Spain. We have no info after leaving Cuba, but we do know this column had a 1561 date at the bottom as Terry Armstrong has drawn in a early comment.

Here is another illustration, in color, showing my reconstruction of the monument, laid out atop the page from the Vander Aa manuscript featuring a re-cut of the de Bry engraving. This second publication of the Huguenot story was put to the press around 1705 and Vander Aa made copies of the de Bry engravings. They are very close in almost every detail and are reprinted in their original form in "A Hundred Giants" which I published in 2014. I also added a photo of one of the two bronze guns on display at the Fort Caroline National Monument. I has no dolphins and is shown fixed on a typical deck mount, which I am not certain is correct as this was probably a field piece instead.

The stone monument discovered by Global Marine Exploration along Cape Canaveral bears resemblance to at least a piece of the monument described by Le Moyne and later produced in print by Theodore de Bry. In this model, the page shown is from the Vander Aa manuscript reprint of the Huguenot saga, and the illustration is a copy of the de Bry engraving. According to Jeannette Thurber Connor, one of the Frenchmen, Rouffi, described the monument to wit:

"The said pillar/' says the Spanish relation concerning Rojas, "is of white stone, as tall and large as a man, more or less; and at the top thereof is graven an escutcheon with a crown surmounting it, and within it are three fleurs-delys; and farther down, an R(I R) which the said Guillermo said was the name in cipher of the queen mother of France; he said she was called Catalina; and farther down, four figures in numerals which read 1561."


The piece found by Global Marine Exploration, while degraded over its long period of submersion, still displays all of the appropriate features as described by Rouffi, sans the bottom half. In this model the bottom half is presented here without any warrantee of fidelity, however, the monument may have looked like this, based upon the piece found at sea, and the description by Rouffi.

Rouffi stayed in S.C. in the area of Parris Island when the Huguenots left there, bound for Europe after the failure of their adventure in 1562. Rouffi lived with the Indians and was located by Rojas when he scouted the area looking for the Huguenot fort and the stone monument. Rouffi was taken captive by the Spaniards and he led them to the monument in question. His first-hand description of it would be the best information we have regarding its design. Note that he used the term "graven", meaning that it was "cut" or "etched" into the stone.

If you want to see a 3D video of this particular model, go to Signum Ops | Videos and scroll toward the bottom to see a multi-view.

 

[ivan salis]

yep --- graven = cut or etched into stone

 

[Black Duck]

yep --- graven = cut or etched into stone

yes Terry is right cut or etched into stone, thats what we have in the docs also.

nice follow up

 

[Black Duck]

yep --- graven = cut or etched into stone

Yes, Terry is right, cut or etched into stone, thats what we have in the docs also.

nice follow up

 

[Salvor6]

Just a note: after Pedro Menendez massacred the French forces of Jean Ribault and killed everyone (except 50 women and children) at Charlesfort, French nobleman Dominique de Gourge sold everything he had, borrowed money from his brother and sent 3 ships and 200 men to Florida in 1568. There he enlisted the help of the Saturiwa and Tatcuru tribes and attacked Charlesfort (Renamed Ft. San Mateo by the Spanish). He executed all the Spaniards in the fort and hung their bodies in the trees with a note; "not Spaniards but murderers."

 

[seekerGH]

Well, there are several accounts for certain, but.....

My question is, why would the Ribault Society in France create a stone column with bronze plaques?

The NPS has a very similar column as well.

This is an flat sided column with a raised plaque.. This image is one of the Theodore de Bry engravings, from artwork by Jacques Le Moyne, who was with the 1564 expedition


This painting looks just like the monument...



In the 3D models, it is likely, if 1561 was engraved, it would have been in Roman numerals....although in none of the illustrations is this apparent...

EDIT: I am wondering if this may be a part of the Fort?