Azquester
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Original photos Stone Maps
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sdcfia
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Maybe I should have said, "main characters." I was just struck with the similar general framework of the two tales. Verifiable details vary considerably, of course, but both Milton Noss and Travis Tumlinson's lives do share a few landmarks:
1. Served prison terms as young men.
2. Allegedly benefited from mysterious "Spanish treasure" maps.
3. Years of controversial "treasure-related" behavior.
4. Alleged deceptive practices, including conning investors.
5. Early demises.
7. No incontrovertible evidence of found treasure.
8. Strong post-mortem support by surviving family and descendants.
Had a teenage friend (and his family) who dug up a couple of Native American graves back in the 1960's. Illegal even then I'm sure, but more commonly done than today. These two graves were on the side of a hill over looking a river, the closet hill to the river in that area. The graves were not far from known Native American camp/settlement sites. In the side-by-side graves were found two skeletons with several ceremonial points (arrow heads as they were called then). The points were made from a white rock, and had elaborate serrated edges. Impressive looking, the work of a very skilled flint knapper.
Found behind one of the skulls was a small 'bar' of silver. Shaped roughly in a rectangle, maybe 2 1/2 or 3 inches long, by aprx. 1 1/2 wide, an inch or less thick (working from old memories). The silver bar appeared to have been beaten into that shape, rough not smooth like a casting. It was speculated that the bar had been tied behind the skull with some type cloth or hide which had since deteriorated.
The teenager's family sent one of the skulls to the local State University, which later told them the bones were the oldest ever found from that area, pre-Spanish. The University confiscated that skull and demanded all other findings. The grave robber kept the other skull, (the one he had shown to me) as well as everything else found within those two graves. But you are right Hal, I doubt he brags about it as much now as fifty years ago.
[Edited for verb tense clarity, and to add that the continued possession of the skull/bones by the grave robber would. I believe, make it an ongoing crime, with no expiration of any statute of limitations.]
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sdcfia
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The best place to hide something is in full plain sight. Here's half of a treasure map in California, to be used in conjunction with another nearby monument topped with an obelisk. Every seemingly innocuous detail, front and back, of both monuments is a piece of a puzzle that points to a precise destination. As far as what is known, there are actual human remains in these graves - not always the case.
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markmar
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deducer
I believe how what Ryan calls as " ground map " to be what the Peraltas made in their attempt to find the treasure rooms . i believe the story go like this :
The King of Spain have heard how some Spaniards miners in collaboration with Jesuit priests , kept a large amount of the " fifth " for themself and hid it somewhere NE of Casa Grande . To find this location , the King gave a land grant to the Peraltas who were miners an have Jesuits friends . Their Jesuit friends provided them with a set of stone maps ( not stone crosses included ) which allegedly would lead them to the treasure rooms . But the stone tablets/maps that we know , were not so easy to be decrypted . So they ventured in the Superstitions to look for something which would help them to find the spot . They never found the treasure rooms but instead they found very rich gold placers . Tracking these gold placers to their mother lode , they opened and worked some mines around Black Top Mesa . Realizing how they couldn't to recognize the stone trail with the heart in the fields and couldn't to decrypt the Witch/Horse stone , they ( the Peraltas ) decided the stone maps to be buried in a specific place and this place to be marked in the Ground Map . Later this map came in the possession of Travis and helped him to found the stone maps ( without the Latin heart ) .
Ironically and incidentally , the Peraltas tracking another rich placer to the source , found a rich gold mine ( Apache/ Sombrero mine ) which was in the stone trail/Latin heart map region . They quiclky understood how the mine was in a sacred place but the greed made them to plan how to receive a bigest amount of ore in a small time frame . So they returned with many miners to do a single season work . But this was their signature on their death certificate . The Apaches who had an eye on them , saw them on the sacred place and were preparing for battle . Because the site was in a rough remote place and difficult to attack , the Apache waited until the Peraltas and the Mexican miners were ready to return to the Mexico . The Peraltas with their miners never would been able to get the sacred ore to Mexico .
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somehiker
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Yes...a cover story
One which would give the locals, who Travis viewed as a threat, something to sink their teeth into.
Almost all of them believed the stones were found near the old "Black Point", rather than over by US 60 .....didn't they ?
And they also traded rumors of five stones, not just the four that Mitchell wound up with.
So, did it work or not ?
Hal Croves
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Yes...a cover story
One which would give the locals, who Travis viewed as a threat, something to sink their teeth into.
Almost all of them believed the stones were found near the old "Black Point", rather than over by US 60 .....didn't they ?
And they also traded rumors of five stones, not just the four that Mitchell wound up with.
So, did it work or not ?
The discovery story Travis writes in the manuscript would be the cover if Ryan is correct.
somehiker
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We'll have to wait for that unfortunately.
Did he intend to have it published ? Initially, I thought Ryan had said it was written for the family only.
And they certainly didn't allow it to be published or copied prior to Ryan opening his wallet.
Do you think then, that Travis, in the manuscript, will say he found the stones where US 60 crosses over Queen Creek ?
Someone really dug that place up, with at least five large holes, including the two "grave sized" deepest holes.
And someone has been back for more, within the last year or so, and cleaned out all the loose stuff in the bottom of those two.
Any chance, do you think, that THAT is where Travis wound up digging for his "treasure", after solving his maps ?
Five small stones = five big holes..... ??
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Azquester
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A lot of those holes were dug in solid rock. So they would've been blasted. I don't think the stone maps would've survived the blasting.
Hal Croves
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If Travis carved the stones and if he was writing for prosperity (his family), why would he misrepresent fact?
I don't see any problem in Travis having carved the stones. It would explain most of the concerns expressed by those professionals who have looked at them and found the stones to be modern.
Is it possible that the "ground map" is the original source map for the stones?
somehiker
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Not solid rock Bill, but a conglomerate of rock, gravel and coarse sand, cemented by caliche.
If you're talking about the QC/US 60 spot ?
But the Black Point "Punta Negro" spot on the map Frank had posted some time ago, likely has similar geology.
And that's where I'll agree that the small maps were found.
It's hard, and not exactly "shovel ready" , but can be broken up with a pick and then shoveled or scraped out.
You must have noticed the piles of rock and dirt all around the holes when you were out there, didn't you ?
Those piles were very close to the edges of the holes, unlike what a backhoe operator would do, or any kind of blasting.
So they were dug by hand, and whatever was put in the holes originally is now long gone.
There was a nice black heart that I kicked out of the rubble pile last October.
View attachment N S hole.bmp
BTW: There are some layers of limestone/tuffa/sandstone visible along the old creek bank below.
About 20-30 ft. down from the top of the eroded cliff. So that's about how far down you would have to dig, before you hit any kind of bedrock.
BTWW: Also came across some "junk" you and all the others must have missed...or maybe dropped out there.
At the base of this saguaro, and in it's 11:00 shadow, there was an unusual marker which pointed towards BP.
Probably pointed at some treasure before someone else got into it. But it had the glint of gold, so I went and had a looksee anyway.
Left it there though, since it obviously wasn't meant for me.
Left the black heart by the hole in the other photo as well.
View attachment Lopped saguaro wi gold junk.bmp
If you're talking about the QC/US 60 spot ?
But the Black Point "Punta Negro" spot on the map Frank had posted some time ago, likely has similar geology.
And that's where I'll agree that the small maps were found.
It's hard, and not exactly "shovel ready" , but can be broken up with a pick and then shoveled or scraped out.
You must have noticed the piles of rock and dirt all around the holes when you were out there, didn't you ?
Those piles were very close to the edges of the holes, unlike what a backhoe operator would do, or any kind of blasting.
So they were dug by hand, and whatever was put in the holes originally is now long gone.
There was a nice black heart that I kicked out of the rubble pile last October.
View attachment N S hole.bmp
BTW: There are some layers of limestone/tuffa/sandstone visible along the old creek bank below.
About 20-30 ft. down from the top of the eroded cliff. So that's about how far down you would have to dig, before you hit any kind of bedrock.
BTWW: Also came across some "junk" you and all the others must have missed...or maybe dropped out there.
At the base of this saguaro, and in it's 11:00 shadow, there was an unusual marker which pointed towards BP.
Probably pointed at some treasure before someone else got into it. But it had the glint of gold, so I went and had a looksee anyway.
Left it there though, since it obviously wasn't meant for me.
Left the black heart by the hole in the other photo as well.
View attachment Lopped saguaro wi gold junk.bmp
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somehiker
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If he carved the museum stones, which are the only relevant ones we have been able to personally see for ourselves so far, as a deflection from the real stones he found, it makes more sense that his manuscript, if also written as a false narrative intended to "throw people (competitors) off".... that we would have seen that manuscript at approximately the same time as the stones were revealed to the world. Both were shared with a few others while Travis was still living, so why was the manuscript kept under wraps by the family all this time ? Was it to keep half the cat in the bag ?
Both Ryan and Frank have previously said the ground map contains much of what's on the trail maps, and the "Peralta Tesoro Mappa". And Ryan has also said there is ...."no horse, no priest, and no removable heart" on the "ground map"....remember ?
And it's a big map, so it certainly could have been the source for his idea of two of the equally large " Trail " stones at least.
But where did the inspiration come from for the H/P stone, with it's slashes and cuts, numbers and symbols etc., and especially it's misspelled Spanish ?
Surely he could have easily obtained an English to Spanish dictionary somewhere, or even asked one of the Mexicans who lived or worked nearby to translate a few written words into properly spelled Spanish for him ?
And where the idea of an elaborate removable heart map, with further carvings on both the back and within the pocket ?
These are some of the questions I hope will be answered in the documentary.
I also have no problem with what the experts had to say about the stones they examined, and R & F have both suggested that the "museum stones" are "different" than others they have photos of. Frank also said that Travis had a regular "stone map factory" in operation out there in Texas, all of which confirmed my earlier posts regarding my own suspicions of this fact as we now know it.
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Gentlemen:
The Stone Maps. From what is in the public view who can really tell what their genesis is. For example this is a post I have referred to on a number of occasions to demonstrate the ambiguity of their creation. Here Mr. Kollenburn gives a rather believable account of their creation.
Originally Posted by sgtfda:
Had to go to the Apache Junction fruit market today so I decided to meet up with Tom K at the Blue Bird. By the way they have a set of the stones on display in the front window. Copies just like the museum. God everyone has them. Tom told me a acquaintance made the stones in the 30's and placed them in the FJ spot. I asked why there and he said the guy was working in the area. This person also worked as a tombstone engraver. Which explains a lot. I wanted to ask him about the Burns from Burns Ranch and the pitt mine. The stones came up after I noticed the window display. I will still keep a open mind as its fun to play with the issue.
Frank,
Tom told me this story some time ago. Not much chance he will ever divulge the name. I believe it to be true.
Take care,
Joe
Now it seems we have a new slant:
In the Apache Junction News dated 02/22-02/28/2016 on page A-6 in an article on "The Coke Ovens of Gila River", Mr. Kollenburn states: "However the stone maps are phony and were created by a man named Travis E. Tumlinson".
So which story is correct. Hard to say.
Also if we look at the importance of the small stones that Travis supposedly found in Arizona, what do we find:
1.Pegleg Map 1:shows trail to find the original stones within the foothills of the Superstition Mountains.
2.Original Stones: Stones that were found by Travis using Pegleg Map 1. These stones are all white/small and collectively show an extensive trail within the Superstition Mountains. No priest/No horse/No heart insert/No 1847/No Pedro/No Sonora.
3.Ground Map: Enlarged tracing of the Original Stones.
4.Barn Map: Tracing of one of the Original Stone maps.
Now the following seems to be claimed:
Sgtfda Post:
"Joe. I look at the stones as a primitive work of art. Not a treasure map. Travis had a little stone factory going. I look at the ground map as the key".
To Ryan the original stones are critical in understanding the Ground Map. To Sarge the original stones are obviously not. What is interesting is the underlying contradiction that surfaces in these two accounts. To Ryan the original stones were found in Arizona. To Sarge it seems that the possibility exists that the small stones were also created by Travis. If this is the case does the whole discovery story in Arizona simply implode.
Is it possible the discovery story is just a tall tale and was a ruse used by Travis to get money from folks in Arizona and elsewhere. If one is to believe Mr. Kollenburn and Sarge the possibility should be considered. Also was the real reason for the mass deletes to remove contradictory information from the public view and prepare for a whole new story at a a later date? But then what about the Latin Heart and the Stone Crosses?
Perhaps at the end of the day The Ground Map is what is well the Ground as Hal has suggested and everything else was just a ruse to get money. And where did the Ground Map come from? A hole in Arizona. Well that seems odd. And why would you have a map, Pegleg 1 to lead to a hole, if there was nothing there to begin with.
I suspect our friends in Texas will create a whole new legend and the questions that have plagued all of this will largely remain unanswered much the way this statement was never followed up on. Ryan stated:
"I will definitely share the print of the bumper photo from the negative. The negative is roughly 2 inches by 1 inch, taken on a high end camera. Travis was a photographer, and did in fact do "paid photo shoots" during his free time. Mainly of public gatherings and events. The plus side is Travis took a lot of photos of the stones he carved. He was proud of them and I don't blame him, he did a great job! Having the negative of these photos is,for me, worlds better than the print. The prints are old - have been stuffed in boxes and other misc holding mediums, and some are not in the best condition. Thankfully the negatives didn't go through the same "toll of time", so we will be able to get them printed, and printed into very large prints!
Clearly we cannot have those photos printed at Walmart, Walgreens or some other self-serve kiosk. These negatives are priceless and will be treated as such by the family".
One thing I would like to call attention to is the well ancient origins of all of this. If you look at where I above mentioned the Barn Map we are told it is an original tracing of one of the original stone maps. We are later told this by Sarge:
The Barn along the way
So is the conclusion that the Barn Map, which is a tracing of one of the original stones incorporate a star chart and has greek symbols? If this is the case how can it be that the original stones is a primitive work of art. I suspect the original stones do exist and are more fundamental to the range than anyone can imagine. Having said that how they got involved in all of this is too me at least a real mystery.
Starman
The Stone Maps. From what is in the public view who can really tell what their genesis is. For example this is a post I have referred to on a number of occasions to demonstrate the ambiguity of their creation. Here Mr. Kollenburn gives a rather believable account of their creation.
Originally Posted by sgtfda:
Had to go to the Apache Junction fruit market today so I decided to meet up with Tom K at the Blue Bird. By the way they have a set of the stones on display in the front window. Copies just like the museum. God everyone has them. Tom told me a acquaintance made the stones in the 30's and placed them in the FJ spot. I asked why there and he said the guy was working in the area. This person also worked as a tombstone engraver. Which explains a lot. I wanted to ask him about the Burns from Burns Ranch and the pitt mine. The stones came up after I noticed the window display. I will still keep a open mind as its fun to play with the issue.
Frank,
Tom told me this story some time ago. Not much chance he will ever divulge the name. I believe it to be true.
Take care,
Joe
Now it seems we have a new slant:
In the Apache Junction News dated 02/22-02/28/2016 on page A-6 in an article on "The Coke Ovens of Gila River", Mr. Kollenburn states: "However the stone maps are phony and were created by a man named Travis E. Tumlinson".
So which story is correct. Hard to say.
Also if we look at the importance of the small stones that Travis supposedly found in Arizona, what do we find:
1.Pegleg Map 1:shows trail to find the original stones within the foothills of the Superstition Mountains.
2.Original Stones: Stones that were found by Travis using Pegleg Map 1. These stones are all white/small and collectively show an extensive trail within the Superstition Mountains. No priest/No horse/No heart insert/No 1847/No Pedro/No Sonora.
3.Ground Map: Enlarged tracing of the Original Stones.
4.Barn Map: Tracing of one of the Original Stone maps.
Now the following seems to be claimed:
Sgtfda Post:
"Joe. I look at the stones as a primitive work of art. Not a treasure map. Travis had a little stone factory going. I look at the ground map as the key".
To Ryan the original stones are critical in understanding the Ground Map. To Sarge the original stones are obviously not. What is interesting is the underlying contradiction that surfaces in these two accounts. To Ryan the original stones were found in Arizona. To Sarge it seems that the possibility exists that the small stones were also created by Travis. If this is the case does the whole discovery story in Arizona simply implode.
Is it possible the discovery story is just a tall tale and was a ruse used by Travis to get money from folks in Arizona and elsewhere. If one is to believe Mr. Kollenburn and Sarge the possibility should be considered. Also was the real reason for the mass deletes to remove contradictory information from the public view and prepare for a whole new story at a a later date? But then what about the Latin Heart and the Stone Crosses?
Perhaps at the end of the day The Ground Map is what is well the Ground as Hal has suggested and everything else was just a ruse to get money. And where did the Ground Map come from? A hole in Arizona. Well that seems odd. And why would you have a map, Pegleg 1 to lead to a hole, if there was nothing there to begin with.
I suspect our friends in Texas will create a whole new legend and the questions that have plagued all of this will largely remain unanswered much the way this statement was never followed up on. Ryan stated:
"I will definitely share the print of the bumper photo from the negative. The negative is roughly 2 inches by 1 inch, taken on a high end camera. Travis was a photographer, and did in fact do "paid photo shoots" during his free time. Mainly of public gatherings and events. The plus side is Travis took a lot of photos of the stones he carved. He was proud of them and I don't blame him, he did a great job! Having the negative of these photos is,for me, worlds better than the print. The prints are old - have been stuffed in boxes and other misc holding mediums, and some are not in the best condition. Thankfully the negatives didn't go through the same "toll of time", so we will be able to get them printed, and printed into very large prints!
Clearly we cannot have those photos printed at Walmart, Walgreens or some other self-serve kiosk. These negatives are priceless and will be treated as such by the family".
One thing I would like to call attention to is the well ancient origins of all of this. If you look at where I above mentioned the Barn Map we are told it is an original tracing of one of the original stone maps. We are later told this by Sarge:
The Barn along the way
Let`s see about the barn map:
1."The barn map could be a location map incorporating a star chart".--Sarge
2."One experts opinion. The barn map has Greek symbols".--Sarge
3.The origin of the barn map."The Barn Map is an original tracing of one of the original stone maps."--banned person
1+2+3=(somewhere over the rainbow)
1."The barn map could be a location map incorporating a star chart".--Sarge
2."One experts opinion. The barn map has Greek symbols".--Sarge
3.The origin of the barn map."The Barn Map is an original tracing of one of the original stone maps."--banned person
1+2+3=(somewhere over the rainbow)
So is the conclusion that the Barn Map, which is a tracing of one of the original stones incorporate a star chart and has greek symbols? If this is the case how can it be that the original stones is a primitive work of art. I suspect the original stones do exist and are more fundamental to the range than anyone can imagine. Having said that how they got involved in all of this is too me at least a real mystery.
Starman
Weaversneedle
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Starman you must be retired because you have way too much time on your hands
Hal Croves
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Travis following an old map to a collection of stones just seems unlikely to me. Especially on his own.
Travis engraving parts of the ground map in stone as a way to attract investors and control the release of information makes sense. Only he would know what was original and what was altered.
cw0909
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i was trying to fig out where that black point is/was
and ran across a geological survey report in 1995,
that says someone was digging, GS wasnt sure why
they ? if it was for a (perlite?) mine
RECENTd disturbed ground: Areas disturbed by man, consisting of the Whitlow Ranch Flood
ControlBasin Dam, deposits of rock removed from the spillway and deposited in two nearby
areas,and disturbed areas in and around an open-pit (perlite?) mine in the Black Point area.
http://repository.azgs.az.gov/sites/default/files/dlio/files/2010/u14/OFR_95_10_Florence_Jct.pdf
had a look at these 2 maps, trying to find from the maps in the PDF
http://ngmdb.usgs.gov/img4/ht_icons/Browse/AZ/AZ_Mesa_315544_1958_250000.jpg
http://ngmdb.usgs.gov/img4/ht_icons/Browse/AZ/AZ_Picketpost Mtn_312874_1949_24000.jpg
and ran across a geological survey report in 1995,
that says someone was digging, GS wasnt sure why
they ? if it was for a (perlite?) mine
RECENTd disturbed ground: Areas disturbed by man, consisting of the Whitlow Ranch Flood
ControlBasin Dam, deposits of rock removed from the spillway and deposited in two nearby
areas,and disturbed areas in and around an open-pit (perlite?) mine in the Black Point area.
http://repository.azgs.az.gov/sites/default/files/dlio/files/2010/u14/OFR_95_10_Florence_Jct.pdf
had a look at these 2 maps, trying to find from the maps in the PDF
http://ngmdb.usgs.gov/img4/ht_icons/Browse/AZ/AZ_Mesa_315544_1958_250000.jpg
http://ngmdb.usgs.gov/img4/ht_icons/Browse/AZ/AZ_Picketpost Mtn_312874_1949_24000.jpg
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somehiker
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http://ngmdb.usgs.gov/img4/ht_icons/Browse/AZ/AZ_Florence_315361_1902_125000.jpg
On the map that Frank had posted, it was labeled "Black Ridge", rather than Black Point, as it is on the 1902 topo.
The two small hills to the west were labeled " Borrego Mountain"
Has an arrow pointing to the south end of something called " Punta Negro" on the map, and on the north side of QC at the south base of this "Punta Negra" was a black spot labeled "Stone Maps Found Here".
Looked like a page from a book, so maybe Frank can re-post it.
Transferred to a crop from the 1902 Florence Topo, this could be one interpretation of that map....
View attachment 1902 Florence crop SM's.bmp
On the map that Frank had posted, it was labeled "Black Ridge", rather than Black Point, as it is on the 1902 topo.
The two small hills to the west were labeled " Borrego Mountain"
Has an arrow pointing to the south end of something called " Punta Negro" on the map, and on the north side of QC at the south base of this "Punta Negra" was a black spot labeled "Stone Maps Found Here".
Looked like a page from a book, so maybe Frank can re-post it.
Transferred to a crop from the 1902 Florence Topo, this could be one interpretation of that map....
View attachment 1902 Florence crop SM's.bmp
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sgtfda
Bronze Member
Happy Easter Wayne
somehiker
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Thanks a bunch Frank.
Yes, that's the one I remembered.
Who did that one up ? From a book ?
BEWARE THE JACKALOPES ....they're not the Easter Bunny.
sgtfda
Bronze Member
From the Tom K map collection. Here is the other that goes with it. 
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