Original photos Stone Maps

[Azquester]

azdave,

I agree with you regarding the saguaros and their use as a system of trail markers and, ingenious is the correct way to describe it.
Still, I don't think that I fully understand it other than the obvious.

Anyway, how would one communicate the location of this "system" to future generations if not with a map?

Systems don't require a map just a determination of the various higher important symbol's or an index of various measurement symbols used. With a system you can find any mine or treasure a map can't. Because we all know maps have a way of disappearing or getting lost. If the system is word of mouth we all lose. Sort of like Free Masonry. Cactus is not a permanent system as the cactus can fall over or rot. If the Mexicans used Cactus only the system and the mines would be lost. I believe they used rock along side of the cactus markers. If they wanted to have their family find it later.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Family Maps of Hinds County, Mississippi, Deluxe Edition - Grab it through Amazon!

[Carl995]

Cactus is not a permanent system as the cactus can fall over or rot. If the Mexicans used Cactus only the system and the mines would be lost. I believe they used rock along side of the cactus markers. If they wanted to have their family find it later.

From what I understand, they buried it knowing they would be back to get it, not their family's.

 

[azdave35]

From what I understand, they buried it knowing they would be back to get it, not their family's.

miners are a greedy lot...they had no intention of sharing with future generations..

 

[Azquester]

From what I understand, they buried it knowing they would be back to get it, not their family's.

In the system of the time the King of Spain mandated the secretion of the mine entrances and locations for his future re-opening of them, even a thousand years later so the system would have to be permanent centuries later. Even the Peralta mines were generational handed down through family. Tradition and family was very binding back then. Maps would tend to get lost. So Triangles were the norm or some version of triangulation. Mirror images another way, or, hidden distances from certain monuments or cacti. A hidden system with in another system of nature blended, stroked and stacked one on top another. Four or even five symbols in one. Stacking was way of conveying a sentence of instructions. The more I see it the more I can see in it. Just out side of Dripping Springs is a mountain range that has giant water symbols (Fish) and arrows with instructions all blended within the range. This of course was one of the main routes of Kino and Manje. Along the San Pedro a major highway of sorts for the Spanish Mission chain, Rancheria's, Vista's and Indian's.

The Catalina's carry a huge fish symbol going to Pima Springs in Pima Canyon just like along the Tortilla's. I would bet you there is a spring along the route probably close to the Fish Symbol. The Pedro and Arrivipa Creek both have springs around them.

The Mining Districts were there back then to. Not a far stretch of the imagination to see they made these highway signs all in shadow using the natural landscape around them like the ribs of the fish which may indicate a seasonal spring as the bones of the fish are seen in the range as erosion lines. All along the Pedro were Indian Villages and Gold / Silver Mines. This was a major route to the Superstitions.

 

[Hal Croves]

From what I understand, they buried it knowing they would be back to get it, not their family's.

Carrol, azdave,

I took azdaves advice and have been focusing my research on Clay's work.
Part of this research includes mapping the Peralta genealogy which, honestly, was a colossal pain in the ass.
I have most of it now and the one thing that immediately comes to mind.... there are no missing relatives and no common date of death to suggest any type of Peralta massacre.
At least, not in the Superstitions.

One of the discoveries that I will share is that several of the Peralta's rode with the 1775 Anza expedition (#2) to San Francisco Bay from Tubac.

Once you see the marriages, the connections to the Cruz, the Grijalva, and other families, you can appreciate the idea that it would have been a family secret passed down from one generation to the next.

Obviously, this is just my opinion.

 

[azdave35]

Carrol, azdave,

I took azdaves advice and have been focusing my research on Clay's work.
Part of this research includes mapping the Peralta genealogy which, honestly, was a colossal pain in the ass.
I have most of it now and the one thing that immediately comes to mind.... there are no missing relatives and no common date of death to suggest any type of Peralta massacre.
At least, not in the Superstitions.

One of the discoveries that I will share is that several of the Peralta's rode with the 1775 Anza expedition (#2) to San Francisco Bay from Tubac.

Once you see the marriages, the connections to the Cruz, the Grijalva, and other families, you can appreciate the idea that it would have been a family secret passed down from one generation to the next.

Obviously, this is just my opinion.

hal....most people are on the fence about the massacre grounds...the site of the massacre grounds didn't appear on topo maps until the late 50's...there were quite a few bones found at the site and also some rich gold ore ..if enough research was done some of those bones could probably be located and DNA testing done...as far as the mexican miners passing down the location of the mines....i'm sure they did..once they realized they weren't going to be able to go back......but that wasn't the main reason for marking the trail to the mines..they marked it so they could get back and clean them out..trust me on this one....i've dealt with many miners over the years

 

[Hal Croves]

hal....most people are on the fence about the massacre grounds...the site of the massacre grounds didn't appear on topo maps until the late 50's...there were quite a few bones found at the site and also some rich gold ore ..if enough research was done some of those bones could probably be located and DNA testing done...as far as the mexican miners passing down the location of the mines....i'm sure they did..once they realized they weren't going to be able to go back......but that wasn't the main reason for marking the trail to the mines..they marked it so they could get back and clean them out..trust me on this one....i've dealt with many miners over the years

There is enough evidence to support the idea of a massacre at Massacre Grounds only, both sides involved were native peoples.
Also, the murder of Spanish/Mexican citizens on the scale of a massacre would not have gone unnoticed.
The population on the frontier was simply too small.


After 1853, it would have been almost impossible to clandestinely mine the Superstitions on any large scale.


Yes, you might be correct about miners and their motivations.

 

[azdave35]

There is enough evidence to support the idea of a massacre at Massacre Grounds only, both sides involved were native peoples.
Also, the murder of Spanish/Mexican citizens on the scale of a massacre would not have gone unnoticed.
The population on the frontier was simply too small.


After 1853, it would have been almost impossible to clandestinely mine the Superstitions on any large scale.


Yes, you might be correct about miners and their motivations.

i would tend to agree on the massacre being between indians except for all the pieces of gold ore that has been found at or around the site...i know guys that have picked up some very rich ore there...indians didn't mine gold so it came from whites or mexican...also i think that area was pretty sparsley populated in that time period...if you were in the mountains you could do whatever you wanted and nobody would know...

 

[somehiker]

i would tend to agree on the massacre being between indians except for all the pieces of gold ore that has been found at or around the site...i know guys that have picked up some very rich ore there...indians didn't mine gold so it came from whites or mexican...also i think that area was pretty sparsley populated in that time period...if you were in the mountains you could do whatever you wanted and nobody would know...

The massacre was said to have occurred in the 1846-47 timeframe, during the Mexican-American war. With Mexican manpower likely in short supply, due to the war, and the Mexicans history of conscripted (forced) labour, I think it's likely that many of those killed WERE natives. Through intermarriage (half breeds), some may have been there as paid peons as well.

 

[Azquester]

i would tend to agree on the massacre being between indians except for all the pieces of gold ore that has been found at or around the site...i know guys that have picked up some very rich ore there...indians didn't mine gold so it came from whites or mexican...also i think that area was pretty sparsley populated in that time period...if you were in the mountains you could do whatever you wanted and nobody would know...

Aztecs Mined Gold. Could it be the massacre gold was from an earlier time frame? Only stone tools and sandals were found from what I've read. Oh and an old leather bag full of ore which may not be something that could be dated.

 

[Azquester]

There is enough evidence to support the idea of a massacre at Massacre Grounds only, both sides involved were native peoples.
Also, the murder of Spanish/Mexican citizens on the scale of a massacre would not have gone unnoticed.
The population on the frontier was simply too small.


After 1853, it would have been almost impossible to clandestinely mine the Superstitions on any large scale.


Yes, you might be correct about miners and their motivations.

The Peralta's were from Santa Fe. Not present day Mexico. You know that right? The records were destroyed by fire caused by the Indian Chief Victorio or NaNa I get those guys confused. The area my Cabin is located was originally settled by the Spaniards and they to were attacked by Victorio with only one family surviving in Reserve New Mexico. I came across an old book at my Cabin written by some obscure fellow and he gives the entire history both Indian and Spanish of the whole area around Luna Lake and Luna NM.

 

[wrmickel1]

You've all turned back in time, right to the beginning again.
Joe, do you recall awhile back we where talking about Custer and asked if I new
a few people in the dig. Well I was'nt being totally truthful. I was invited there by someone
I kinda know. He's retired now.
my brother Jerry Clark. That's me and him in the photo.
He sent me down there to see if the Stone Maps had any merit what so ever.
The pic's I brought back left know dout that there 100 percent real
Now I left no stone unturned exspect one! But I'll be heading back in a few months to hopefully post the
finnal pic.

Wrmickel 1

 

[Hal Croves]

The Peralta's were from Santa Fe. Not present day Mexico. You know that right? The records were destroyed by fire caused by the Indian Chief Victorio or NaNa I get those guys confused. The area my Cabin is located was originally settled by the Spaniards and they to were attacked by Victorio with only one family surviving in Reserve New Mexico. I came across an old book at my Cabin written by some obscure fellow and he gives the entire history both Indian and Spanish of the whole area around Luna Lake and Luna NM.

"From" Santa Fe?
The Peralta name went to New Mexico, as it (they) went to San Francisco, San Diego and, the Tucson Area.



"In late January 1610, Don Pedro de Peralta reached New Mexico’s first capital city, La Villa de San Gabriel, located on the west bank of the Rio Grande, opposite San Juan Pueblo. Peralta’s origins remain obscure but he was appointed by the viceroy to succeed Juan de Oñate, New Mexico’s first governor and founder. Peralta carried instruction from Mexico City to move the provincial capital to a better location."

"Governor Peralta remained in office until 1613. His administration was highlighted by several disputes with the Franciscan Fray Isidro Ordóñez. The friar accused Peralta of malfeasance concerning his duties as governor and in his dealings with the Native population. For these alleged wrongdoings Ordóñez excommunicated the governor, and posted notice of Peralta’s removal on the doors of the church in Santa Fe. This war of wills between the two continued when Ordóñez and his followers had Peralta arrested, chained, and thrown into a cell. Ordóñez was left to rule New Mexico unfettered. When the new governor arrived in New Mexico in 1614, ex-governor Peralta was forbidden from leaving the colony for some time, and allowed to only after Ordóñez and the new governor confiscated most of Peralta’s possessions. Peralta left New Mexico, returning to Mexico City where he told his side of the Ordóñez saga. After a lengthy investigation, the Mexican Inquisition ordered Ordóñez to Mexico City where he was reprimanded and Peralta was finally vindicated."

New Mexico Office of the State Historian | people



​

 

[Hal Croves]

The massacre was said to have occurred in the 1846-47 timeframe, during the Mexican-American war. With Mexican manpower likely in short supply, due to the war, and the Mexicans history of conscripted (forced) labour, I think it's likely that many of those killed WERE natives. Through intermarriage (half breeds), some may have been there as paid peons as well.

"Superstition mountain was pointed out to the early settlers with awe by the Indians on account of the complete annihilation of one of their tribes there by the Apaches, who, after stealing their cattle and horses, killed them all except two small children, a boy and a girl..... The boy is now a prominent physician in Chicago"

16 Jan, 1907 Daily Arizona Silver Belt
​

JUAN JOSE IS DEAD
The Old Chief of the Maricopas and Friend of the Whites.

"In his day, Juan Jose was a great war chief. Though the friendship of his tribe for whites was traditional, there was always deadly enmity between the Maricopas and the Apaches. About the time the first whites settled in the valley the old chief conducted an expedition into the Superstition mountains and the Maricopas tell yet of the great slaughter of Apaches."

5 July, 1905 AZR


​

"In the days when the red men of Arizona were on the war path, the Apaches discovered a short cut into the country of the Maricopa Indians over the Apache trail. At the point where the Apache trail comes out of the mountains, there stands a solitary butte, which, at certain seasons of the year is overhung with heavy mist, giving it a ghastly appearance. The Maricopa discovering that the Apache were on the war path and advancing over this shortcut, sent a party of braves into the recesses of this mountain butte. When the scouting party of renegade Apaches, numbering about a hundred warriors, reached the butte, the Maricopas set upon them and not one escaped to tell the tale.

The main tribe having advanced to within a few miles, sent out another scouting party, which was also slaughtered in the same place. The Apaches, when their scouts failed to return, were convinced that the spirits in the mountains had slain their warriors, and thereafter no Apaches ever entered the haunts of the Maricopa by the route of the lone butte, and on the strength of this legend the butte was called by the white men, Superstition mountain."

18 May, 1919 AZR
​

 

[Hal Croves]

Something to think about....

The Late Massacre
"It is generally known throughout this portion of the territory that an attempt was recently made by a band of lawless men to drive out the Mexican population from the country, and several persons were killed on the Sonita..."

12 May, 1859 The Weekly Arizonian
​

 

[Azquester]

"From" Santa Fe?
The Peralta name went to New Mexico, as they went to San Francisco, San Diego and, the Tucson Area.



"In late January 1610, Don Pedro de Peralta reached New Mexico’s first capital city, La Villa de San Gabriel, located on the west bank of the Rio Grande, opposite San Juan Pueblo. Peralta’s origins remain obscure but he was appointed by the viceroy to succeed Juan de Oñate, New Mexico’s first governor and founder. Peralta carried instruction from Mexico City to move the provincial capital to a better location."

"Governor Peralta remained in office until 1613. His administration was highlighted by several disputes with the Franciscan Fray Isidro Ordóñez. The friar accused Peralta of malfeasance concerning his duties as governor and in his dealings with the Native population. For these alleged wrongdoings Ordóñez excommunicated the governor, and posted notice of Peralta’s removal on the doors of the church in Santa Fe. This war of wills between the two continued when Ordóñez and his followers had Peralta arrested, chained, and thrown into a cell. Ordóñez was left to rule New Mexico unfettered. When the new governor arrived in New Mexico in 1614, ex-governor Peralta was forbidden from leaving the colony for some time, and allowed to only after Ordóñez and the new governor confiscated most of Peralta’s possessions. Peralta left New Mexico, returning to Mexico City where he told his side of the Ordóñez saga. After a lengthy investigation, the Mexican Inquisition ordered Ordóñez to Mexico City where he was reprimanded and Peralta was finally vindicated."

New Mexico Office of the State Historian | people



​

He was vindicated, but, where did he go after that? Back to New Mexico I would assume. The records that were destroyed would still be in the Archives of the Indies. They have an online version that can be translated with Google. I copied all those maps from their online library and it wasn't easy though. There were many Peralta's, but, the ones I believe went to the Superstitions came from the capital in New Mexico, Santa Fe. If there was any such expedition at all. I believe in all that I've read about deprivations of the Indians I never once read of any Massacre in the Superstition's because they named the ranges differently back then so it would be an obscure name not related. Below at the bottom is a search I did for Peralta Minas and it came back 662 documents from 1638 in Mexico.


MINISTERIO DE EDUCACI”N, CULTURA Y DEPORTE - Portal de Archivos Españoles

[url]http://pares.mcu.es/ParesBusquedas/servlets/Control_servlet?accion=4&txt_accion_origen=2&txt_id_desc_ud=361757




[/URL]

 

[Azquester]

Mapa De Gila

View attachment 1361825

Sorry about that!

 

[Hal Croves]

 

[Hal Croves]

He was vindicated, but, where did he go after that? Back to New Mexico I would assume. The records that were destroyed would still be in the Archives of the Indies. They have an online version that can be translated with Google. I copied all those maps from their online library and it wasn't easy though. There were many Peralta's, but, the ones I believe went to the Superstitions came from the capital in New Mexico, Santa Fe. If there was any such expedition at all. I believe in all that I've read about deprivations of the Indians I never once read of any Massacre in the Superstition's because they named the ranges differently back then so it would be an obscure name not related. Below at the bottom is a search I did for Peralta Minas and it came back 662 documents from 1638 in Mexico.


MINISTERIO DE EDUCACI”N, CULTURA Y DEPORTE - Portal de Archivos Españoles

MINISTERIO DE EDUCACI”N, CULTURA Y DEPORTE - Portal de Archivos Españoles

PIONEER FAMILIES OF THE PRESIDIO SAN AGUSTÍN DEL TUCSON

"Pioneer Families of the Tucson Presidio Tucson was a relatively small community of between 400 and 500 people from the 1770s to the 1850s. By the end of the Presidio years, most of the inhabitants were related to each other."

Page ii
INDEX OF NAMES

Abate
Abila/Avila
Abril
Acedo/Azedo
Acosta
Acuña
Aguirre (see also Higuera)
Agustína
Alegria
Allande
Alvares/Alvarez
Alviso/Albiso
Alvarado
Amayo
Amezquita
Anaya
Andrada/Andrade
Apodoca
Arias/Araisa
Aros/Aroz
Arriola
Arriquivar
Arvizu
Avila
Avilducea
Ayala
Baez
Baldenegro
Balderrama
Balle
Barragan
Barreda
Barrera
Barrios
Bega (see Vega)
Bejarano
Beldarrain
Benitez
Bernal
Borquez/Bojorquez
Buena
Burrola
Burruel
Bustamente
Calvadillo
Camacho
Camargo
Campa/Campas/Campos
Cancio
Canelo
Cano
Canoro
Carrillo
Carrisosa
Casanova
Castillo/Castelo/Gastelo
Castro
Chabira
Chamorro
Chavarria
Chavez
Ciercil?
Colosio
Comadurán
Contreras
Corales/Corral/Corrales
Corona
Coronado
Crespo
Cruz
Cuellar
Daniel
Días/Díaz
Duarte
Duran
Elías
Elías-Gonzáles
Escalante
Espinosa
Estrada
Evangelista
Federico
Fernandez
Fierro
Figueroa
Franco
Fuentes
Gales/Galaz
Gallardo
Gallego/Gallegos
Gamez
Gamunez
García
Gastelo (see Castello)
Gastelum
Gauna
German
Gomez
Gongora
Gonzáles
Granilla/Granillo
Grijalva
Guana
Guevara
Gurrola
Hernandez
Herran
Herreras
Higuera/Yguera (see also Aguirre)
Huerta
Iguaya [or Yguaya]
Jacome
Ledesma
León
Ligandes
Lira
Lizarraga
Lopez
Lujan
Luz/Lucas/Luques
Maldonado
Marin
Marquez/Marques
Martinez
Mascareño
Medina
Mendes
Mesa
Michelena
Miranda
Monroy
Montaño
Montijo
Montoya
Moraga
Morales
Moreno
Morillo
Munguia
Muñoz
Narbona
Noriega
Nuñez
Ochoa/Ocha
Ocoboa/Ocovoa
Ogeda
Oliva
Orosco/Orozco
Ortega
Ortiz
Osorio
Otero
Pacheco
Palacios
Palomino
Pena/Pina
Peralta
Perdigon
Perez
Polanco
Preciado
Quijada
Quintero
Ramirez
Rangel
Ribera/Rivera
Rico
Rios
Rodriguez
Romanos
Romero
Ruelas
Ruis/Ruiz
Saavedra
Saiz/Saez/Saens/Saenz
Salazar
Sanchez/Sanches
Santa Cruz
Sardina
Sierra
Siqueiros
Sisneros
Solares
Solis
Soqui
Sortillon
Sosa/Soza
Sotelo
Soto
Tacuba
Tapia
Telles
Tisnado
Tona
Toraño
Ureñ
Urquijo
Urrea/Urreas/Urias
Urtado/Urtrado
Usarraga
Valdez
Valencia

 

[Hal Croves]

He was vindicated, but, where did he go after that? Back to New Mexico I would assume. The records that were destroyed would still be in the Archives of the Indies. They have an online version that can be translated with Google. I copied all those maps from their online library and it wasn't easy though. There were many Peralta's, but, the ones I believe went to the Superstitions came from the capital in New Mexico, Santa Fe. If there was any such expedition at all. I believe in all that I've read about deprivations of the Indians I never once read of any Massacre in the Superstition's because they named the ranges differently back then so it would be an obscure name not related. Below at the bottom is a search I did for Peralta Minas and it came back 662 documents from 1638 in Mexico.


MINISTERIO DE EDUCACI”N, CULTURA Y DEPORTE - Portal de Archivos Españoles

MINISTERIO DE EDUCACI”N, CULTURA Y DEPORTE - Portal de Archivos Españoles

Pedro de Peralta

• Born: 1584 Spain
• Arrived in Mexico winter of 1608-9 after attending university in Spain.
• Appointed Governor of New Mexico 1609.
• Imprisoned for one year in 1612.
• Released/Vindicated in 1613/4?
• Appointed commander of the Pacific seaport of Acapulco.
• Appointed Alcalde of the Mexico City Royal Warehouse, 1621-22
• To Caracas, Venezuela/married/ enters into a "commercial enterprise" 1637
• Auditor and later treasurer of the Royal Treasury in Caracas 1644-1652
• Resigned commission in 1654 and lived in Madrid.
• Died: 1666 (Madrid, Spain)