Odyssey treasure will go to Spain!

[jeff of pa]

Not exactly, Ossy. It´s more like if you find an abandoned machine to plow on your rye field. No plate, no identification number on the enginering and no owner around. You fix it, paint it and put on work giving it a new life. And suddenly appears someone who a court says that is the original owner. Do you think you have no right for asking for some kind of paymet for the care you took on the machine?

also if you own a towing (Salvage) Buisness,
you are called to the Interstate for an abandond Vehicle.
the owner is given so long to pay
the tow Bill & Storage costs. If not paid
within a certain time the Vehicle is Yours.
No release Till Towing & Storage costs
are Paid. in this case Delivery Costs should be paid
by spain in advance also,
as you can't trust Spains honesty or credit wortiness

 

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[ivan salis]

I have just one simple question , that I would love to have "properly' legally answered * by spain --

by what process did the personal property -- of those who shipped property / "money" (cargo) on the vessel --magically transfer ownership and become "spain's" money / (cargo) -- how did the goods "change ownership status" legally speaking ?

because if i recall correctly --spain never "paid off' people who shipped theiir goods on the vessel for their losses * thus the property loss was not paid for --so the "oeiginal owners" still own their own "lost property "*

as a private persons lost "money" are they not entitled to recover their own lost money?

because if spain never "paid off" the original owners or their heirs for the "loss" of the money they incurred when the vessel sank -- what right does spain have to "claim" the shippers (original owners) money ? --

what if because of this (personal property rights wise) the "money" never actually belonged to spain at all but rather the "original owners"( and thus their heirs) legally speaking ?

how would this affect the rulings legal point of veiw?

 

[Vox veritas]

I have just one simple question , that I would love to have "properly' legally answered * by spain --

by what process did the personal property -- of those who shipped property / "money" (cargo) on the vessel --magically transfer ownership and become "spain's" money / (cargo) -- how did the goods "change ownership status" legally speaking ?

because if i recall correctly --spain never "paid off' people who shipped theiir goods on the vessel for their losses * thus the property loss was not paid for --so the "oeiginal owners" still own their own "lost property "*

as a private persons lost "money" are they not entitled to recover their own lost money?

because if spain never "paid off" the original owners or their heirs for the "loss" of the money they incurred when the vessel sank -- what right does spain have to "claim" the shippers (original owners) money ? --

what if because of this (personal property rights wise) the "money" never actually belonged to spain at all but rather the "original owners"( and thus their heirs) legally speaking ?

how would this affect the rulings legal point of veiw?

Hi Ivan,
interesting question yours. I'll tell you one very specific case. In 1752 wrecked on the beach of Barrosa (near Cadiz) the ship "El Soberbio". Its owner, the Marquis de la Cañada. I found the present Marquise de la Cañada, which is a direct descendant of the ship owner. No doubt about the direct, because in Spain the noble titles passed from father to son. I tried to prepare a project to salvage. Impossible! The wreck belongs to the State under the current legislation. So the cargo of Mercedes belongs to the Spanish state. It is the law in force in Spain.
Cheers

 

[Vox veritas]

About the property

Document # 1: Shipwreck on Barrosa Beach 1752
Document # 2: owner the Marquis de la Cañada

 

[Vox veritas]

The Marquis de la Cañada

The Marquis de la Cañada from 1975

 

[Panfilo]

I doubt you’ll ever get an answer from Spain Ivan but I’ll give you my view of things if it might help. Spain offered in two or perhaps more occasions to indemnify the merchants who lost their cargo and money aboard the Mercedes, this is true. Several individuals came forth and filed their claims but none were paid as there was not one single proof of this presented to the courts by Spain, not one receipt was filed.
The core issue in this court case is one Ivan and one alone and it is that Spain is trying (and is very close to succeeding) to acquire title, by ways of a legal precedent in a US court, to all of its colonial era wrecks in American waters and elsewhere but also all private cargo onboard. This is being done openly as a state policy by masking its pretenses under the venerable concept of “sovereign immunity”, a concept which all naval powers consider to be the most sacred of naval principles that is indispensable to protect its ships safe from enemy nations. Spain never said that it acquired those coins that belonged to the private merchants because it didn’t, there is a much simpler method. If Spain were to prove that the Mercedes was sunk on a military mission, the US courts could not assume jurisdiction over the case. That’s what has happened so far. Neither the Tampa court nor the Atlanta appellate court have said the coins belong to Spain Ivan, all they have said is that they have no jurisdiction over the Mercedes as it was a sovereign immune ship on a military mission. Spain contends that the Mercedes was a military state ship on a military mission and if this was so…the coins are theirs. Now if the Mercedes was on a military ship on a commercial mission (which is what really happened) then the US courts do have jurisdiction and the king owns 24% of the coins and the merchants 76%, according to the ships manifest.
The bizarre thing that is going on here Ivan is that Peru, Odyssey and the descendants have until the 27th (9 days) to file their appeal to the Supreme Court and Spain will more likely than not have the coins out of the Country before that date. Now here is the tricky part, if in the hypothetical case that the Supreme Court decides to hear the case and the coins are out of its jurisdiction, has justice been served? Has the appellate process so fundamental to the US judicial system been denied to Peru, Odyssey and the descendants? One would certainly think so. Grounds for appeal include errors of law, procedure or errors of fact and all indications after a thorough study of the historical facts of the Mercedes leads one to believe that an appeal would certainly overturn the previous verdicts but with the coins long gone, there can be no justice to the claimants.
Panfilo

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/World/Story/STIStory_767995.html
Tuesday is the Day

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_33761.shtml

 

[ivan salis]

I for one do not understand how spain can claim any part of the treasure other that the full amount "manifested' as belonging to the crown -- 24% of the coins onboard according to the records -- once that amount of coins are turned over to spain --the rest of the coins are "private property' belonging to the heirs of those who lost the coins when the ship sank --

by what form of legal hocus pocus does spain "claim' the ownership of these peoples "private property" ?

i understand --imminate domain -- the states right to claim ownership of things -- but the state has to 'pay' the price for the property taken , they do not just get it for "free" -- and since spain has never paid the owners of the coins for their loss -- they do not in my veiw legally "own" the rights to these coins --instead the heirs of those shipping these coins on the vessel have "title to them"--and as such are not the owners of said property entitled to find and reclaim their own "property"? --or /and allow some one to do it for them? -- does "the state' own everything and everyone in it and all their belonging as well? or have we "legally" speaking gone back to the "dark ages" --where the "king' owned everything and everyone in their country , and whatever words they uttered that day was "the law" designed to suit their whim and fancy at the moment and subject to change whenever they pleased.

 

[NHBandit]

That was not true. Spain never paid the merchants. They tried to get the Brits to pay, but they refused. Goold never introduced one document showing the merchants were paid.

It's all over Jeff Odyssey are working very hard at the moment, hoping to announce to the
world they have found the treasure on the Victory, Lets hope so for their share holders.

Hummm.... I might have news on that gold and it's original owners..

Wouldn't it be funny if it belonged to Spain
[/quote] It would be even funnier if the Spanish thieves had to give it ALL back to Mexico with interest AND compensation to the ancestors of the people they murdered to get it..

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

That was not true. Spain never paid the merchants. They tried to get the Brits to pay, but they refused. Goold never introduced one document showing the merchants were paid.

It's all over Jeff Odyssey are working very hard at the moment, hoping to announce to the
world they have found the treasure on the Victory, Lets hope so for their share holders.

[/quo


Hummm.... I might have news on that gold and it's original owners..

Wouldn't it be funny if it belonged to Spain

It would be even funnier if the Spanish thieves had to give it ALL back to Mexico with interest AND compensation to the ancestors of the people they murdered to get it..

So where do you live Bandit Occupied land your ancestors took by force from the local natives they murdered !

 

[NHBandit]

I go to the casinos & give them money.. & for the record my wife & I are both part native American. Thanks for asking.

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

I go to the casinos & give them money.. & for the record my wife & I are both part native American. Thanks for asking.

Humm so you were raped and pillaged, all forgiven

 

[Alexandre]

http://translate.google.com/transla...on-inventario-tesoro-la-mercedes.html&act=url

 

[jeff of pa]

It would be even funnier if the Spanish thieves had to give it ALL back to Mexico with interest AND compensation to the ancestors of the people they murdered to get it..

Do you realy think thieves would actually Give their spoils away ?

Seriously. Who is Spain going to listen to ?
Certainly not the U.s.

Only U.s. Judges are fool enough to Smooch
other countries Butts

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

It would be even funnier if the Spanish thieves had to give it ALL back to Mexico with interest AND compensation to the ancestors of the people they murdered to get it..

Do you realy think thieves would actually Give their spoils away ?

Seriously. Who is Spain going to listen to ?
Certainly not the U.s.

Only U.s. Judges are fool enough to Smooch
other countries Butts

Should ask Greg Stemn, His hiding more coins and artifacts in Gibraltar and other artifacts from other Spanish wrecks they Pillaged when they
had free run out in the straights.
Greg could be in major trouble if charges are brought against him in La Linea.
http://elpais.com/elpais/2012/02/23/inenglish/1330026889_482544.html
Ossy

 

[VOC]

http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/lifestyle/2012/02/23/peru-says-spain-stole-their-gold-1069322224/

If Spain is not thieving the silver for a second time, they should allow the courts to hear Peru's case before they ship out the coins.

No wonder Spain are trying to get the coins out asap, as they know they would probably lose that case if it is heard in court.

Peru has more legitimately than Spain to the ownership of these coins.

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/lifestyle/2012/02/23/peru-says-spain-stole-their-gold-1069322224/

If Spain is not thieving the silver for a second time, they should allow the courts to hear Peru's case before they ship out the coins.

No wonder Spain are trying to get the coins out asap, as they know they would probably lose that case if it is heard in court.

Peru has more legitimately than Spain to the ownership of these coins.

VOC, Peru unfortunately don't have a legal right, they may have a moral right. But it was a Spanish Colony at the time.
If this was to happen to England they would be declared bankrupt, as they would have to pay back to it's past Colonies for Past thieving.
The US could start with giving back California to Mexico, The list could go on forever!
Your mate, Drake made his name from stealing treasure from the Spaniards, who as you say stole from the locals. How can Peru, Mexico claim against
England for its stolen property
What happen to Rome, Spain need to make a claim
Ossy

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Alexandre, I haven't forgotten Portugal, Spain will have to give back land, money my wife
Ossy

 

[jeff of pa]

Well If I had my say.

Odyssey found it,
Odyssey Recoverd it,
Odyssey Owns it

Only Exception if spain said here are the Directions,
to where it went down.
Go get it for us.