Odyssey treasure will go to Spain!

[Salvor6]

"Apparently Spain only thinks about the money. I've yet to see them claim a Spanish shipwreck that only had artifacts that did not consist of non ferrous metal on them in the USA or else where."

Old Man there is a whole fleet of sunken Spanish ships in the northern Gulf of Mexico off the coast of FL. It is Tristan De Luna's fleet of 1557. Divers have been picking over them for years. The U. of W. FL excavated two of them. Problem is that there was no gold or silver on any of the ships. That's why Spain is not interested.

 

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[old man]

"Apparently Spain only thinks about the money. I've yet to see them claim a Spanish shipwreck that only had artifacts that did not consist of non ferrous metal on them in the USA or else where."

Old Man there is a whole fleet of sunken Spanish ships in the northern Gulf of Mexico off the coast of FL. It is Tristan De Luna's fleet of 1557. Divers have been picking over them for years. The U. of W. FL excavated two of them. Problem is that there was no gold or silver on any of the ships. That's why Spain is not interested.

Exactly Pete. Spain is not interested in its cultural heritage. They are only interested in the Gold and Silver that others salvage from Spanish Wrecks.

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Exactly Pete. Spain is not interested in its cultural heritage. They are only interested in the Gold and Silver that others salvage from Spanish Wrecks.

Old Man ,can you give me one example were Spain has sold its cultural heritage ! Not one coin from the Mercedes has been sold or will be be !!!!
The coins will be put on show.
So your argument on Spain not being interested in its heritage has no standing ! Spain spend millions of Euros a year on its heritage from conserving Visigoth ruins to Roman ones .
You keep using this excuse, so you can justify raiding Spanish wrecks and then you selling off the gold and silver !!

 

[old man]

Old Man ,can you give me one example were Spain has sold its cultural heritage ! Not one coin from the Mercedes has been sold or will be be !!!!
The coins will be put on show.
So your argument on Spain not being interested in its heritage has no standing ! Spain spend millions of Euros a year on its heritage from conserving Visigoth ruins to Roman ones .
You keep using this excuse, so you can justify raiding Spanish wrecks and then you selling off the gold and silver !!

Here's your Proof right here from Salvor 6. If Spain cared about it's Cultural Heritage? It wouldn't only be interested in Gold and Silver. Spain could care less about its Cultural Heritage if Gold or Silver isn't involved in the salvage.

"Old Man there is a whole fleet of sunken Spanish ships in the northern Gulf of Mexico off the coast of FL. It is Tristan De Luna's fleet of 1557. Divers have been picking over them for years. The U. of W. FL excavated two of them. Problem is that there was no gold or silver on any of the ships. That's why Spain is not interested."

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Here's your Proof right here from Salvor 6. If Spain cared about it's Cultural Heritage? It wouldn't only be interested in Gold and Silver. Spain could care less about its Cultural Heritage if Gold or Silver isn't involved in the salvage.

"Old Man there is a whole fleet of sunken Spanish ships in the northern Gulf of Mexico off the coast of FL. It is Tristan De Luna's fleet of 1557. Divers have been picking over them for years. The U. of W. FL excavated two of them. Problem is that there was no gold or silver on any of the ships. That's why Spain is not interested."

You still can't give me any example were Spain is selling it's Cultural gold and silver for profit !
Spain just wants to stop the selling of its Cultural Heritage on eBay !! I know it's hard to except that, but it's Spanish law that Cultural heritage cannot be sold .
So if someone were to find another Atocha, Spain would but it all into a Museum , nothing would be sold !
I know you guys are out there trying to make a buck and I am guilty of Buying Spanish cobs and coins BUT It"s Spain law so that's the risk you guys take.
Personalty I would like the law modified

 

[old man]

You still can't give me any example were Spain is selling it's Cultural gold and silver for profit !
Spain just wants to stop the selling of its Cultural Heritage on eBay !! I know it's hard to except that, but it's Spanish law that Cultural heritage cannot be sold .
So if someone were to find another Atocha, Spain would but it all into a Museum , nothing would be sold !
I know you guys are out there trying to make a buck and I am guilty of Buying Spanish cobs and coins BUT It"s Spain law so that's the risk you guys take.
Personalty I would like the law modified

Ossy, You're missing my point. I don't deny that Spain may be putting the Gold and silver in Museums. My Point is that Spain is only interested in Wrecks with Gold and Silver. If they were really interested in Cultural Heritage, Spain would be interested in going after these others wrecks with Pottery, sextants and other artifacts.
Apparently Spain is only interested in Gold and Silver. Which in my opinion makes them worse then Treasure Hunters.
At least Treasure Hunters use their own money and resources to find and salvage the wrecks.
Spain just takes what others find, without compensating them for their time and money spent finding and salvaging those wrecks.

If these wrecks were made of metal and were military and had troops on them. Then I would agree with Spain for saying they are war graves, but I can not agree on Greed.

 

[Jolly Mon]

Won't this lead to the next time someone finds a ship with any "minerals" worth finding they will melt down your "history" and sell it for the going price?

Remember, the courts did not rule the treasure belonged to Spain. They went out of their way to stress otherwise. They simply ruled that US Courts had no jurisdiction in the matter and that under FSIA and the principle of comity, that Odyssey must return the treasure: "We do not hold the recovered [treasure] is ultimately Spanish property. Rather, we merely hold the sovereign immunity owed the shipwreck of the Mercedes also applies to any cargo the Mercedes was carrying when it sank."

If you were to find a Spanish wreck within the territorial waters of the US, the outcome of the case probably would be radically different.

The Spanish would have to prove, beyond the shadow of a doubt, the identity of the vessel (consider that after nearly 60 years of salvage not a single vessel of the 1715 fleet has been positively identified !!).

And they would have to further prove that the vessel in question was on a military, and not a commercial venture. (Awful tough task with a fully loaded treasure galleon !!).

The burden of proof would shift to Spain if the wreck were found in US waters. This is a huge difference.

 

[hobbit]

Remember, the courts did not rule the treasure belonged to Spain. They went out of their way to stress otherwise. They simply ruled that US Courts had no jurisdiction in the matter and that under FISA and the principle of comity, that Odyssey must return the treasure: "We do not hold the recovered [treasure] is ultimately Spanish property. Rather, we merely hold the sovereign immunity owed the shipwreck of the Mercedes also applies to any cargo the Mercedes was carrying when it sank."

If you were to find a Spanish wreck within the territorial waters of the US, the outcome of the case probably would be radically different.

The Spanish would have to prove, beyond the shadow of a doubt, the identity of the vessel (consider that after nearly 60 years of salvage not a single vessel of the 1715 fleet has been positively identified !!).

And they would have to further prove that the vessel in question was on a military, and not a commercial venture. (Awful tough task with a fully loaded treasure galleon !!).

The burden of proof would shift to Spain if the wreck were found in US waters. This is a huge difference.

I agree.

If the kind of precedent many people assume had been set in this case (which did not even go to trial for gods sake !), then Spain could sue Mel Fisher and even potentially the State of Florida and Queen's Jewels LLC.

They won't.

Both the Atocha and the 1715 wrecks were clearly found within US territorial waters. Spain's laws don't trump US laws within US territorial waters. They don't trump Bahamian laws, either.

Salvors have nothing to worry about except in international waters and in waters of countries historically friendly to Spanish maritime interests (this is a VERY short list: Portugal).

If you an otherwise legal US salvor, and you are within 24 nautical miles of the United States coastline, you can thumb your nose at the Spanish and any attempt by them to steal their cultural heritage for a second time.

 

[Salvor6]

Ossy said: "Old Man ,can you give me one example were Spain has sold its cultural heritage! Not one coin from the Mercedes has been sold or will be be !!!!"

Ossy old buddy, of course Spain will not sell one coin from the Mercedes. That's because after all the Spanish officials take a couple souveniers there won't be enough coins to sell.

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Ossy said: "Old Man ,can you give me one example were Spain has sold its cultural heritage! Not one coin from the Mercedes has been sold or will be be !!!!"

Ossy old buddy, of course Spain will not sell one coin from the Mercedes. That's because after all the Spanish officials take a couple souveniers there won't be enough coins to sell.

Pete my old mate , So your saying nobody in the US government is not corrupt only Spanish officials .
Must be nice living in such a perfect community of trust , Why do you all carry guns ?? Oh that's right , just in case you need to overthrow your government

 

[Jolly Mon]

Pete my old mate , So your saying nobody in the US government is not corrupt only Spanish officials .
Must be nice living in such a perfect community of trust , Why do you all carry guns ?? Oh that's right , just in case you need to overthrow your government

Corruption: Why is Spain so corrupt? | The Economist

Political Corruption in Spain

Are corruption-weary Spaniards nearing a tipping point? - CSMonitor.com

Damage from Spain?s crooked dark side | In English | EL PAÍS

Scandals force Spain down global corruption index | World news | theguardian.com

"Corruption is far more pervasive, and far more tolerated, than we would like to think, and Spain has a big problem, say the experts. "Corruption in Spain has always been tolerated," says Jesús Lizcano, the head of the Spanish division of Transparency International.

"Let me give you a figure," he continues: "Around 70 percent of the politicians who have been arraigned for corruption were subsequently re-elected in the most recent local elections."

"In Spain, historically we have always lived with the idea that everybody is trying to get away with it, by not paying their taxes, or whatever," says Carlos Cruzado, the head of the tax collectors' association, Gestha.

Estimates suggest that some 20 percent of Spanish economic activity takes place in the shadows.

"Scandals put us in the same league as Greece, Italy and Cyprus, which is not where we want to be. One thing is having a deficit, high unemployment and lack of competitiveness, but we don't want to be a player in the corruption stakes," says economist José Carlos Díez.

Keith Salmon, an expert in Spanish politics at the Oxford Analytica think-tank, says that Spain's corruption problem is seen in Britain as "a serious matter, one that has similarities not just to what is going on in the south of Europe, but in some countries in Latin America." He also warns of a bigger danger: "the loss of faith and trust on the part of a whole generation of Spaniards in their governments, in the democratic system itself, and in the economy overall. This is part of what prompts many young people to seek a new life abroad, and so Spain loses the talent it needs to make a new tomorrow. This is a high price to pay, and will affect the country for many years."

But you can trust the Spanish Royal Family !!!

http://www.express.co.uk/news/royal/391483/A-royal-family-engulfed-in-scandal

Spain's royal family in danger of losing crowns

BARCELONA, May 2013 — The former treasurer of Spain's ruling party – indicted. The former head of the country's Supreme Court – resigning in disgrace.

These are a few of the 1,600 cases involving embezzlement, tax evasion, kickbacks and Swiss bank accounts by high-level officials that have hit the desks of prosecutors since the euro crisis began five years ago and devastated Spain.

But the scandal being talked about around Spanish water coolers and in cafes and bars is a case that could land a Spanish princess in jail and topple the Spanish monarchy.

Last month, Princess Cristina was indicted on charges of complicity in fraud, tax evasion, money laundering and embezzlement, the first member of a European royal family to be charged in a serious crime in centuries.

The principal case revolves around her husband, Duke of Palma Iñaki Urdangarin, who is accused of fraud, tax evasion, forgery and the embezzlement of $7.8 million from regional governments through inflated contracts via their non-profit organization, Institute Noos.

"I believe the monarchy is going to fall more quickly than we can establish a new political system," said Antonio Rubio, leader of the Spanish Towns Network for the Third Republic, an association that represents 40 local governments and more than 2,000 public officials who want to see King Juan Carlos lose his crown.



I could go on and on with this...

You have to admire the sheer audacity of the Spaniards, however.

Did you know that King Carlos was President of the World Wildlife Fund until 2012 ?

He lost his position at that organization when he broke his hip while on safari in Africa... it was revealed the accident occurred while he was hunting elephants in Botswana !!!

Unbelievable, but true !!!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...F-presidency-after-row-over-hunting-trip.html

"I like shipwreck treasure and killing endangered species".

 

[want2skydive]

Pete my old mate , So your saying nobody in the US government is not corrupt only Spanish officials .
Must be nice living in such a perfect community of trust , Why do you all carry guns ?? Oh that's right , just in case you need to overthrow your government

Oh you want to bring my guns into this. How come you make no comment as to where the Spanish got the gold?

 

[huntsman53]

While we are on this subject, I will point out that while Spain may not sell the coins from the Mercedes, I believe that they can and probably will borrow money against the Treasure. Being that many Corporations in Spain have went bankrupt and some of their biggest Banks are on the verge of bankruptcy, the Country has lost and continues to lose millions and millions of tax dollars. It would behove them to borrow money against the Treasure and they probably care less if they lose it due to non-payment. Heck, borrowing and spending money that they don't have is pretty much their history and they keep doing this over and over and over!


Frank

 

[UncleMatt]

So if someone were to find a buried/hidden Spanish mine in Arizona, with a hoard of gold and silver bars with Spanish Royal markings stamped on them, would Spain have a legal claim to that?

 

[huntsman53]

So if someone were to find a buried/hidden Spanish mine in Arizona, with a hoard of gold and silver bars with Spanish Royal markings stamped on them, would Spain have a legal claim to that?

I don't think so because it is on U.S. soil which would be similar to it being found in U.S. Territorial Waters! Besides, if you melt it down and make new Bars of Gold and Silver from it and no one is the wiser, then who is to say it was ever Spanish Gold and Silver. Teee...heee!!


Frank

P.S. If you have made a find like this and need help hauling the bars out, just let me know.

 

[UncleMatt]

But they did own the land at the time the hoard would have been buried, so that muddies the issue somewhat I would think. If not, hooray!

 

[old man]

So if someone were to find a buried/hidden Spanish mine in Arizona, with a hoard of gold and silver bars with Spanish Royal markings stamped on them, would Spain have a legal claim to that?

UncleMatt, If you found buried Spanish Treasure. It would belong to you or the person that owns the land. Spain would have NO LEGAL CLAIM TO IT.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

It has already happened in the case of Sea Hunt with the Juno and Galga

The Sea Hunt Case

I agree.

If the kind of precedent many people assume had been set in this case (which did not even go to trial for gods sake !), then Spain could sue Mel Fisher and even potentially the State of Florida and Queen's Jewels LLC.

They won't.

Both the Atocha and the 1715 wrecks were clearly found within US territorial waters. Spain's laws don't trump US laws within US territorial waters. They don't trump Bahamian laws, either.

Salvors have nothing to worry about except in international waters and in waters of countries historically friendly to Spanish maritime interests (this is a VERY short list: Portugal).

If you an otherwise legal US salvor, and you are within 24 nautical miles of the United States coastline, you can thumb your nose at the Spanish and any attempt by them to steal their cultural heritage for a second time.

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

While we are on this subject, I will point out that while Spain may not sell the coins from the Mercedes, I believe that they can and probably will borrow money against the Treasure. Being that many Corporations in Spain have went bankrupt and some of their biggest Banks are on the verge of bankruptcy, the Country has lost and continues to lose millions and millions of tax dollars. It would behove them to borrow money against the Treasure and they probably care less if they lose it due to non-payment. Heck, borrowing and spending money that they don't have is pretty much their history and they keep doing this over and over and over!


Frank

Corruption in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
US is ranked 19th in the world for corruption , clear winners
Check out your national debt U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time , 17 Trillion and counting !! At Lease Spain can pay back it's debt.

 

[old man]

"Check out your national debt U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time , 17 Trillion and counting !! At Lease Spain can bay back it's debt"

Ossy, Of Course Spain can pay back it's National Debt. Odyssey Marine did that for them and it didn't cost Spain a cent.

If I were Odyssey Marine. I would have given back to Spain alright. I would have dumped it in several thousand feet of water and let them bring it up.