Odyssey Smoke and Mirrors

javier alvarado

Spain claims that all the gold, silver, stones... belongs to them. if they want to have rights over any shipwreck they should also have obligations toward latin america, because they were responsible for all the people that died because of their greed villages, towns were wipeout

shame on spain for reclaim what they once took by force to the american indians( first nations).
 

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JAVIER said:
javier alvarado

Spain claims that all the gold, silver, stones... belongs to them. if they want to have rights over any shipwreck they should also have obligations toward latin america, because they were responsible for all the people that died because of their greed villages, towns were wipeout

shame on spain for reclaim what they once took by force to the american indians( first nations).
Click to expand...

Alvarado, the Incas had the same obligations with Canaris, Mapuches, Chancas, Huancas etc. etc.
Human history is full of conquerors and conquered peoples.
 

That is what I am trying to say. Everyone has enslaved everybody historically. There is no morality to history. The winners and conquerors write the history books. Amongst the Indian peoples of the New World, the ones who were defeated and enslaved would have loved to have been on top. That was their morality while they were healthy and strong. Very few of them were keeping to themselves, innocently minding their own business and not training for warfare and preparing to attempt a conquest of their own. Spain beat all of them so it got the loot and enslaved them. So that is why I am a pirate. If Spain won through trickery, stealth, strength, superior technology, and some luck thrown in for good measure, then why cant I win in the same ways? Why cant I and my merry band of treasure hunters wrest the loot from Spain now by the same measures that they wrested it from others? And why should I not wrest it from them and sell it and then tell them where the rest of the wreckage lies so they can recover that and put it in their museums if they want to remember their history? Why should they lay claim to the loot and get listened to as if it was a sane request? It is not a sane request. Anyone has a right to what is on the bottom of the sea for hundreds of years.

I realize that the pirate morality cannnot hold true for situations in which people are working hard and obeying a common morality agreeable to all. If one accepts that morality, then one must be a noble pirate and go after the hypocrites and those who live a different standard. Spain is the hypocrite with the double standard.
 

Very interesting read Jeff. I think Odyssey and the descendants may be getting their coins if a judge with any sense has a look at it. If anything at all, the descendants should be awarded custody if no insurance claim was paid on the loss of coins and Odyssey should be awarded compensation for completing the salvage job.
 

I'm not an attorney but their argument seems logical and well supported.

What say the armchair admiralty lawyers?
 

Pirates you say ...?

Well, we all know who the real pirates are in this.

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Jay
 

4themoney, Beliezeanpirate is my new role model. Here is a pic of the wrecker dropping a new engine in my boat yesterday.
 

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Correct. Here is the motor in the boat.
 

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Thanks Ossy. Its actually a Rochester Quadrajet (can't afford Holley).
 

I had one with a kodiak jet pump once.....just couldnt afford to open the throttle all the way :laughing7:
 

I followed this topic with great interest when it first came up... then, due to other commitments, I didn't check in here nearly as much and lost track of all that was going on with the federal case.

Here's my legal two cents (for what its worth). I haven't practiced in an admiralty court in several years and I'm not about to go and update all of my law-school memories for this discussion ;D .

First, several posters mentioned both the 1713 Treaty of Utrecht, and then the 1982 UN "Law of the Sea". Legally, the adoption of a modification, or the changing of a law by a later law does not negate the initial law. In 82' territorial waters were established, which were not considered in 1713.
Just because there are now 3 miles (later 12), of territorial waters, does not negate the initial transfer.
It merely modified a specific portion of the "waters" at issue.

Second... as for the actual federal court case regarding the wreck, its site, heirs, assigns and the like...
A. Unless you have, and have read, all of the documents filed in the court, and are familiar with ALL of the treaties, laws and conventions, you cannot speak intelligently about who is correct, incorrect, etc. (that goes for me as well- so i'll try to speak generally)
B. Even if you have done all of "A", you are still not privy to the phone calls, conferences, conversations with the judges, etc, that always take place outside of the "file" or "transcripted" court proceedings.
C. Taking one objection, from a file, that I would surmise is several inches thick, is taking something completely out of context, and that one document cannot be relied on as the basis of an argument
D. A great deal of ANY legal case is legal posturing. Having a valid argument doesn't mean you're necessarily going to win, and having an "iffy" argument doesn't mean you're going to lose. Here, Spain, and the other "defendants" have a valid argument (whether you agree or not), and they would be foolish, not to attempt to use that claim to pressure some kind of settlement or favorable outcome for themselves. With nearly 600 thousand coins at stake, with an immense value, of course they're going to try for a slice of the pie, whether they are actually entitled to it or not. If you found out tomorrow that you were a long lost heir of the shipping company, wouldn't you throw your hat into the ring? I sure would.
E. I read the "objection to the report"... without reading ALL of the filed documents, you have to consider what it is. In a general sense, a Judge made a decision. someone didn't like the decision, and then "objected" and asked the judge to reconsider. That objection is, of course, a one sided-argument from one of the aggreived parties, and should be taken for what it's worth - an objection by an aggreived party.

steve (actual attorney at law)
 

spez 401:

Thanks for those informed thoughts.

One point, you imply that Spain is motivated by wanting to secure the coins for their monetry value. I doubt that is the case: Spain just doesn't want Odyssey to have the benfit of material that Spain does not think it is entitled to. I think that Spain would have preferred the coins and the wreck site to be undisturbed. It was Odyssey's removal of the coins that has put Spain in the position of having to take possession of something they would probably rather not have had. However, once Pandora's box is open ...........

Mariner
 

Well Mariner, if you say that a couple months ago, I would agree with you. But now it could be wrong. I hope you can understand spanish but, briefly, I add an article talking about the possibility of using the gold from the spanish shipwrecks to balance Spain’s gold national reserves, a little big push in this time of global crisis. It sounds strange. Most in Spain: we’ve signed the UNESCO Convention, we give the worth to the “time capsule” and not the artefacts for them selves, etc, etc. But this report was published by a web magazine with very good contacts on spanish MoD. And the is not a public denial of the topic from the Ministry of Culture or somebody from the Gov. Yes, I known it sounds crazy but...who knows?

Extract from: http://www.revistatenea.es//RevistaAtenea/REVISTA/articulos/GestionNoticias_428_ESP.asp


Un documento de la Armada, elaborado con motivo del Plan Nacional de Arqueología Subacuática que llevarán a cabo los ministerios de Cultura y Defensa, destaca que la decisión de preservar del expolio los tesoros hundidos en aguas españolas coincide con un escenario mundial sin precedentes. Y apunta tres razones: el meteórico incremento del precio del oro, que alcanza máximos históricos; la acumulación del metal noble por las principales potencias económicas ante la creciente debilidad del dólar; y la aguda crisis de la economía española.

Estimaciones oficiales cifran en más de 100.000 millones de euros el valor del oro y plata de los barcos hundidos con cargamentos procedentes de las colonias americanas a lo En un escenario de deterioro de las previsiones económicas, con una recesión que llegará hasta 2011 y un déficit público que este año rondará el 10% del PIB, alrededor de 100.000 millones de euros, según admitió el Gobierno el pasado viernes, que supondría la recuperación en los próximos años de fuertes cantidades del oro hundido se presenta a ojos del Ejecutivo como un "milagroso" salvavidas al que aferrarse.

En apenas cinco años el oro ha pasado de 400 dólares la onza hasta los 1.000 actuales, con previsiones de superar a medio plazo los 2.000 dólares. ¿En qué medida inyectaría estabilidad a la economía española el aporte a las arcas del Estado durante los próximos años de toneladas de oro procedente de los buques de la Carrera de Indias?

Los galeones de la Carrera de Indias naufragados en aguas españolas, según estimaciones conservadoras, albergarían más de 2.000 toneladas de oro. Parece que España, finalmente, deja de vivir de espaldas al mar.
 

Hola, trinidad. Look at Move over Odyssey post ! It's a complicated process to sell colonial coins, has to be done slowly to reach
maximum value. I don't think this will help Spain's current economy ! I think it's more to do with protecting Spain cultural heritage
Ossy
 

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