That’s been nice, Mariner. Excuse for this post because I’m sure it talks about subjects you all already talk about lot of times before but I have this doubts in my head and no better place to talk about it like this forum. So, excuse me but here I go. Talking about the Black Swann case. There is something that I think is the axe on this issue. How do we consider the treasure? as a big amount of money or a unique cultural heritage? Could be both at the same time? It’s possible to deal commercial interest and scientifical research? Can every side of this issue make a living of recovering and/or researching underwater cultural heritage? I don’t know. I’ve a mediterranean education and I don’t feel comfortable seeing greed commercial recovery companies looting around. But I do believe that is possible that Odyssey could be the beginning of ethical commercial recovery. And this could be an interesting start and we are loosing this opportunity in a complicated trial that only will give the "money" to one or to another. I don’t know if I’m been able of explaining my self. Sorry.
Odyssey Smoke and Mirrors
- Thread starter MORE AND BEYOND OSSY
- Start date
Let's not forget Peru's objection.
http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/florida/flmdce/8:2007cv00614/197978/231/0.pdf
http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/florida/flmdce/8:2007cv00614/197978/231/0.pdf
ScubaDude
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Mariner, I apologize for my post if it came off as flippant. It wasn't intentional, I'll tone down the other. You bring valuable insight to these threads, and I don't want to get in the way of that.
Trinidad is on track with where things could be. What will it take to get everyone in a cooperative spirit? I don't have the answer to that question. I'm trying to do just that in the projects I'm responsible for. It is a very delicate balancing act. People will listen to you all day long, ultimately we're judged by our actions and how well we accomplished what we said we would do. You can win people over but you also have to make good on your word.
Unfortunately there are a lot of issues, and differences about things relating to historic shipwrecks. And there are many schools of thought as to how or even if wrecks should be addressed. No matter how you approach things someone is going home with their feelings hurt. Everyone close to these projects feels a personal responsibility and relationship, and people do get emotional with the issues.
My experience has been that cooperation from all sides lends itself to a productive compromise which builds trust and relationships and allows things to proceed. It takes a team approach, right now there are still some rigid people in both camps. The media isn't helping by throwing gasoline on the various fires. It pushes people to react, usually in the direction they are vectored by the media. Hopefully it will spark some debate. I think it would benefit people as a whole to learn from what is beneath the waves lost by their ancestors. The cultural heritage belongs to everyone, its our story.
One of the first few artifacts ScubaFinder and I located in DR a while back was a shackle or handcuff mold. To hold that in my hands and understand its significance, and the significance of where we were. It makes a person stop and think about things that aren't common to the average Joe in Iowa. More people should be exposed to their history, so one day we can hopefully stop repeating mankind's mistakes. As a side note the we believe the shackle mold wasn't Spanish if that makes anyone warm and fuzzy, it was likely French.
Jeff K -
Thank you again for posting the legal filings. This would be worth driving to Tampa to watch when/if it goes to trial.
Trinidad is on track with where things could be. What will it take to get everyone in a cooperative spirit? I don't have the answer to that question. I'm trying to do just that in the projects I'm responsible for. It is a very delicate balancing act. People will listen to you all day long, ultimately we're judged by our actions and how well we accomplished what we said we would do. You can win people over but you also have to make good on your word.
Unfortunately there are a lot of issues, and differences about things relating to historic shipwrecks. And there are many schools of thought as to how or even if wrecks should be addressed. No matter how you approach things someone is going home with their feelings hurt. Everyone close to these projects feels a personal responsibility and relationship, and people do get emotional with the issues.
My experience has been that cooperation from all sides lends itself to a productive compromise which builds trust and relationships and allows things to proceed. It takes a team approach, right now there are still some rigid people in both camps. The media isn't helping by throwing gasoline on the various fires. It pushes people to react, usually in the direction they are vectored by the media. Hopefully it will spark some debate. I think it would benefit people as a whole to learn from what is beneath the waves lost by their ancestors. The cultural heritage belongs to everyone, its our story.
One of the first few artifacts ScubaFinder and I located in DR a while back was a shackle or handcuff mold. To hold that in my hands and understand its significance, and the significance of where we were. It makes a person stop and think about things that aren't common to the average Joe in Iowa. More people should be exposed to their history, so one day we can hopefully stop repeating mankind's mistakes. As a side note the we believe the shackle mold wasn't Spanish if that makes anyone warm and fuzzy, it was likely French.
Jeff K -
Thank you again for posting the legal filings. This would be worth driving to Tampa to watch when/if it goes to trial.
OP
OP
MORE AND BEYOND OSSY
Bronze Member
- Thread starter
- #84
ScubaDude: " The cultural heritage belongs to EVERYONE, it's our story " 
Ossy
Ossy
Scubadude,
I am glad that is behind us.
I agree very much with your latest posting. At the outset of this, I thought (and posted to that effect) that Odyssey would get the award because the Mercedes was not on completely non-commercial duties, but did not like the way they had lifted all of the coins, instead of just collecting enough artefacts to back up their salvage claim. I think that was a red flag to Spain, and raised the stakes all round.
I was surprised at the magistrate's preliminary recommendations, and am finding the whole court case fascinating. It makes me realize how complex the laws surrounding shipwrecks are.
I can imagine how you felt with the shackles in your hand. I know that feeling, and we should be doing everything we can to locate and recover these unique windows on history. I believe that Governments and the archaeological establishment should be looking to find ways to work with the TH community and help make it all happen.
I wish that Odyssey had brought up just some of the coins and also a couple of the cannons, so that the wreck could be identified, if possible. I think that if they had done so and approached Spain in a responsible way, they would have been given a far different reception, as seems to have been the case with the British Government and the Victory. Some might say that their only responsibility is to their shareholders, but I believe that all companies have a responsibility to act in an ethical manner.
Mariner
I am glad that is behind us.
I agree very much with your latest posting. At the outset of this, I thought (and posted to that effect) that Odyssey would get the award because the Mercedes was not on completely non-commercial duties, but did not like the way they had lifted all of the coins, instead of just collecting enough artefacts to back up their salvage claim. I think that was a red flag to Spain, and raised the stakes all round.
I was surprised at the magistrate's preliminary recommendations, and am finding the whole court case fascinating. It makes me realize how complex the laws surrounding shipwrecks are.
I can imagine how you felt with the shackles in your hand. I know that feeling, and we should be doing everything we can to locate and recover these unique windows on history. I believe that Governments and the archaeological establishment should be looking to find ways to work with the TH community and help make it all happen.
I wish that Odyssey had brought up just some of the coins and also a couple of the cannons, so that the wreck could be identified, if possible. I think that if they had done so and approached Spain in a responsible way, they would have been given a far different reception, as seems to have been the case with the British Government and the Victory. Some might say that their only responsibility is to their shareholders, but I believe that all companies have a responsibility to act in an ethical manner.
Mariner
ScubaDude
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This case is getting interesting. Hopefully it won't drag out.
I can't help but think things aren't going to stay status quo for long. I think Pizzo's plan will get shelved while someone else sorts through the objections. That is my hope, there have been some good arguments brought up, but I'm not a lawyer.....
I feel for everyone involved, there is a lot on the table.
I can't help but think things aren't going to stay status quo for long. I think Pizzo's plan will get shelved while someone else sorts through the objections. That is my hope, there have been some good arguments brought up, but I'm not a lawyer.....
I feel for everyone involved, there is a lot on the table.
OP
OP
MORE AND BEYOND OSSY
Bronze Member
- Thread starter
- #88
mariner, you hit the nail on it's head ! " A few coin's and a couple of cannon's " Odyssey did not want the cannon's, they knew it
would point to what ship it was !
Guy's please remember Spain has also been given time to response to Odyssey's current objection's !
One thing for sure the lawyer's are loving this ! who ever Win's may have to sell all the coins and take out a loan to pay them
would point to what ship it was !
Guy's please remember Spain has also been given time to response to Odyssey's current objection's !
One thing for sure the lawyer's are loving this ! who ever Win's may have to sell all the coins and take out a loan to pay them
OP
OP
MORE AND BEYOND OSSY
Bronze Member
- Thread starter
- #89
Question Jeff, are any of the heir's who have claimed with Odyssey Spanish nationals ? I will explain later.
cheers, Ossy
cheers, Ossy
ScubaDude
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This is far from being over.
As far as I know most of the claimants are from South America, and a few from the U.S. Odyssey was going to go back to the site to finish the salvage, but then when Spain overreacted and stopped their ships they thought it wise not to do so.
Saturna
Bronze Member
What's the difference between flying a US flag compared to a flag of convenience, assuming International Waters?
I mean as far as legalities and diplomatic stuff. Could Spain hassle a US flagged boat just as easily as one flagged from Monrovia or some such?
Jay
I mean as far as legalities and diplomatic stuff. Could Spain hassle a US flagged boat just as easily as one flagged from Monrovia or some such?
Jay
ScubaDude
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I couldn't help but notice the one guy in FL representing himself.
Here's an interesting document compiled by the Guardia Civil in Spain. It clearly shows that the battle took place about 9 leagues south of Cape St. Maria. Claudio Bonifacio claims he found the Mercedes in Portuguese territorial waters about 15-20 miles further to the northwest. I say he did a lousy job of researching the Mercedes location. The Spanish version is at the bottom.
www.treasurelore.com/charts/dkt-232-6.pdf
www.treasurelore.com/charts/dkt-232-6.pdf
OP
OP
MORE AND BEYOND OSSY
Bronze Member
If you read the new on the paper it looks like big deal but it’s not. It has been like a monkey with a pencil on his hand marking over a chart a lot of points with “archaeological interest”. There are special protected areas that are periodically bombed by the Navy because is an area of military training. Plus, the Junta of Andalusia has decided to “cover” with this legal protection an english merchant ship, the Empire Warrior, that went down without casualties on the II WW (less than 60 years old this shipwreck) . Nothing interesting about this ship but it went down because an attack of the nazi aircrafts and the coordinates of its place of resting are already known by internet (not a lot of work to do). Anyway, it´s been a try but not serious enough.
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