Nice Bell Found at Shipwreck Site...with pictures.

[Chagy]

Oh and by the way ...Panfilo wrote; "No sense going in the wrong track when an expert like Joaquin has told Jason that the Jesuits as such didn't make their own bells nor did they inscribe them with the IHS anagram."

You may want to show this to Juaquin to see what he has to say...LOL

Panfilo please dont take me wrong I know it was Juaquin who said it not you....

[[made in Portugal for Nanbanji Church, established by Jesuit in 1576 and destroyed 1587, Japan]]

You can see a better pic here

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/75/CIMG1283.JPG

 

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[ivan salis]

the rising sun (half sun) might be symbolic of the jesuits coming and founding a "mission" thus brighting the "enlightenment" of christ to the locals --- much like a "rising sun" which lights up the world

 

[lamar]

Dear ivan salis;
The sun symbol has always been an integral part of the Jesuit seal. It was designed by none other than St. Ignatius of Loyola himself and it is representive of the Jesuit core beliefs. This is the very first time, that a natural symbol, such as the sun, or moon, rose, etc had been incorporated into a Roman Catholic symbol. If this had been attempted some one hundred years earlier, then the Jesuits may very well been accused of having had esoteric beliefs, however the Jesuit Order came into being during the Age of Enlightenment, and as such the Roman Catholic church was somewhat more tolerant during that particular era.

The most likely reason why the bell does not have the cross incorporated into the H of the IHS Christogram is that the founders used common typesets and to make a special typeset would have been very costly, as every one of the characters would have needed to have been smaller than the stock size in order to keep the special character in scale with the other characters. Most likely, the founders put the half sun where they did in as a compromise of sorts, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Panfilo]

Chagy, in the remote chance you haven’t, it’s very interesting to read the Queen Anne’s Report on the “IHS Maria” bronze bell:
http://www.qaronline.org/techSeries/QAR-B-07-01.pdf
As you can see, Joaquin Diaz was one of the four experts that were consulted on this case as he is one of the world’s foremost experts on colonial bells. I doubt there are many bells he hasn’t seen. And yes, I’m sure the Jesuit had special bells made, ordered to their specifications and with all the Jesuit anagrams and symbols. He is saying something different. After analyzing Jason’s bell he states in acceptable but a bit confusing English (which I took the liberty of paraphrasing): “…let me explain that the Jesuits did not have special bells that is, made especially for their “missions” except for a few in Argentina… If there were some bells made for Jesuits and for their exclusive use, is would be logical that they would have put AMDG (ad maiorem Dei gloriam= to great glory of God), that was their motto. Your bell has just an enrollment in the upper part in which it is inscribed IHS (Jesus homini –hominum- salvator= Jesus savior of men), very frequent inscription in bells from the fifteenth century until the twentieth century.

 

[elle]

Astronomy may be the answer to our sun symbols.

Check link:
http://www.companysj.com/v222/rightofftheshelf.htm

The Jesuits were known for this area of study...the best in the world.

Laura

 

[Voldbjerg]

Does anybody know when they started to make their own bells in the new world?

/V

btw thanks for great mystery

 

[Chagy]

http://www.arts-history.mx/banco/index.php?id_nota=2004-06-14_1110

 

[mikewaz]

Congrats on finding a beautiful piece of history!
Mike
I wish I knew how to swim.

 

[Trez]

It shouldn't be long though, and I will be doing everything that I can, still trying to get info on some coins that came off this wreck in the past....that will be a huge clue.

Jason

Congrat's Jason to you and your colleagues on your finds...
Would it be possible to post a pic or two on the coins you spoke of?
Again, I hope your having the time of your life, and much success for your (all) efforts.

Trez

 

[ScubaFinder]

Hey Trez, the coins I speak of were pulled off the site by fishermen years ago, I have only heard stories but am slowly tracking them down. When I find them, of course photos will be posted here. Unfortunately, I have yet to find anything shiny on this particular wreck site. I hope to have pictures soon though. I'll make sure you see them along with everyone else when I track them down.

Thanks,

Jason

 

[Bobadilla]

Dear Laura,

I plan to go and check Mercedes Church in the Colonial City of Santo Domingo this weekend. I will place a candle for Lucy and Luis there, do not worry. I will post the photos once I have them!
Best regards,
Lobo

 

[elle]

Thank you kindly Lobo!

Luis...you said you were almost 99% sure the bell was going to a Jesuit mission.
I am 99.99% sure it was meant for this Order.
Why?
As I said a long time ago...the "H" is almost aligned over the cross.
The bell founders probably tried their best to align, but because of spacing, it ended up where it did.


The "H" over a cross...in my opinion...is the clue that suggests this bell was meant for a Jesuit purpose.

I wrote the website contact of Relicdude's chart...hoping to get the source it came from and seek out the lettering close up for everyone to see.

 

[RELICDUDE07]

This sounds great elle.Chagy is right and he knows i will look at everything on the bell and markings and come up with many ideas..This will look great in the museum. Are they suns ? http://images.google.com/imgres?img...pass&hl=en&rlz=1T4ADBF_enUS319US319&sa=N&um=1 5*8*19*

 

[elle]

I wanted to share with viewers my favorite Jesuit religious piece of art to make a couple points.
This is the reliquary containing the bones of Saint Peter and Saint Paul, and when I first laid my eyes on this years ago, it had a great impact on my life!
I apologize that this photo is black and white, but it is truly one of the most magnificent pieces held once by the Jesuits made in pure silver and emeralds stunning the surface.
The Jesuits went to extreme lengths to have the finest religious pieces made...as well as asking for relics to be sent over from the pope to New World establishments.
This reliquary was commissioned to be made to hold the bones of these saints around 1579 when the Jesuits received relics sent from Pope Gregory XIII.
After the expulsion of the Jesuits in 1767, the reliquary became part of the Museo Eclesiastico of the Mexico City Cathedral...so this shows that many of the Jesuit artifacts were saved and preserved in other churches after the expulsion.
In the last century, it was moved to the Museo Nacional del Virreinato if anyone is interested to view it first-hand.
I wanted to show also how ornamental and intricate the work is displayed...with fruits and foliage, geometric forms, and rollwork.
The elements contained on it are of very high caliber and meaningful of the Jesuit Order. Even though it is said that the bell we are investigating is a simple run-of-the-mill object...I tend to disagree. I do believe the bell was for a Jesuit establishment and that every one of those marks on the bell served a purpose and a clue for its intention.

The Jesuits were not the only order to mark their artifacts with clues. This reliquary cross contains some very interesting figures...very tiny...on the upper portion. The presence of St. Francis of Assisi is recognizable in the arrangement...confirming this piece was once owned by the Franciscan Order.

I have no doubt that our bell is Jesuit with all the indicated symbols...especially with the "H" almost aligned over the cross.
I also have no doubt that Jason will find more religious objects out there on this wreck.
Perhaps a reliquary as my favorite one is sitting on a reef waiting to brought up by a lucky diver!

 

[elle]

Relicdude...very interesting...your picture of the compass.
That symbol sure looks familiar, doesn't it?
Did you read my link on astronomy...the old Jesuit collection?
Maybe I should stop by the Planetarium on the way to Loyola University?

Laura

 

[birdman]

One of the coolest finds I have seen hereon TNet!

 

[elle]

Relicdude...I see your second picture in the above post. Thank you for finding clues...you are a great help!

To add to that...I didn't write one of the Jesuit mottos from centuries ago with no reason.

"The SUN is Ignatius...and the STARS are the members."

 

[OldSowBreath]

As one who was educated by the Jesuits, I have enjoyed this thread greatly. I have no doubt that that bell is truly "SJ".

Novice question: From the pictures, it appears that the main weight bearing loop of the bell ring is somewhat worn, even more so than it's two neighbors. Could that be rope wear, meaning that this is an older bell being sent somewhere else? I don't know if rope can wear down bronze or iron, but perhaps weight and continual wear could do this?

 

[ScubaFinder]

I'm not sure either, but my guess it that rope could wear down metals too, we certainly know that it wore down hardwoods over time. Interesting observation for sure, thanks! I'm going to go look at some bronze rings and fittings I have that had rope running through them and see if I can see any similar wearing.

Jason

 

[OldSowBreath]

Perhaps not just rope, either. Look at the iron loop in the bell loop on Chagy's picture above.