New treasure theory?

[SSR]

Interesting thread. Does it bother anyone to consider that the original Templar crusader knights were notorious for distributing fake holy relics all throughout Europe? It was a very lucrative part of their endeavours. The thirst for high profile holy relics was real. There was no supply to meet demand. What a relic could do for a kingdom by way of pilgrimages should be appreciated. Those who want to put relics and treasures in the hands of some people are first assuming these are real to begin with. OI is pitiful as a story because it sits there waiting for treasures to come to it. The first demonstrable mention of a masonic theory about treasure in Mahone Bay was a chapter mention in a work of allegorical literature written shortly before 1847, and this account is poking fun at Masonic suggestions as well as theories of French and pirate treasure. It's an account of the death of fictitious searcher who uses geometry and Historical details to locate and dig a shaft on and island in Chester Bay which he then dies in. There is no real inspiration for this account, but my gut feeling is that it is the seed suggestion that got all this rolling. All the unverifiable and contradictory details we get prior to 1847 are attempts to create an origin story for a newly specified island by eager locals. Search as you may you will not find any references to anything written about a legend of treasure at OI before the mid 19th century. For all we know we cannot conclude there was a story prior to that time. There is only written suggestions that the searches had a past. Perhaps worry about this before squabbling over which dubious masonic theory is correct to place a treasure there.

 

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[lokiblossom]

Yes, Loki, I have read "HOLY BLOOD,HOLIY GRAIL" as well as Laurence Gardner's "BLOODLINE OF THE HOLY GRAIL", and "GENSIS OF THE GRAIL KINGS", some more of your so called "phenomenal research" that "open minds to a possibility that had only been imagined".
Indeed, "imagined" is the key word that describes all their "phenomenal research" that turns a minor fact that is unrelated to the subject into major fiction to sell a pet theory to the unwary reader.
Very few of your "facts" are actually factual being fabrications of mere legend, myth, lore, and pure speculation.

Not imagined, 'premised'! AS I reread 'Holy Blood Holy Grail' I am even more impressed by their research. Again remember, this was all researched before Al Gore's internet. Exactly what points don't you agree with if I may ask? Btw, there are some I don't agree with, but they didn't have all the information in 1982.

Cheers, Loki

 

[lokiblossom]

The point is that you are taking the word of Diana Jean Muir that the Sinclair journals are real without you actually ever having seen the originals if they ever existed or the 30-40 photocopied pages that she is now utilizing for this ongoing series of Sinclair journal books.
Even Scott Wolter expressed his doubts by NOT coming forth espousing the validity that these journals were real with remarks like "if authentic" and "Assuming the journals are real".

How can you, with any conscience, invoke the name of Scott Wolter after all you have written about him?

Cheers, Loki

 

[ECS]

How can you, with any conscience, invoke the name of Scott Wolter after all you have written about him?

Cheers, Loki

Quite elementary, Loki. If Scott Wolter, charlatan at large, has his doubts about endorsing the authenticity of Muir's "Sinclair journals", that in itself is a self explaining statement.

 

[ECS]

... AS I reread 'Holy Blood Holy Grail' I am even more impressed by their research.
Again remember, this was all researched before Al Gore's internet.
Exactly what points don't you agree with if I may ask? Btw, there are some I don't agree with, but they didn't have all the information in 1982.

...are you implying that you, Loki, have "ALL" the information?
That remark is reminiscent of other poster that makes similar claims.

 

[ECS]

... Does it bother anyone to consider that the original Templar crusader knights were notorious for distributing fake holy relics all throughout Europe? It was a very lucrative part of their endeavours.
The thirst for high profile holy relics was real. There was no supply to meet demand.
What a relic could do for a kingdom by way of pilgrimages should be appreciated. Those who want to put relics and treasures in the hands of some people are first assuming these are real to begin with...

Ralph de Sudeley, part time Templar and knight recruiter for Richard III, had a profitable museum displaying "Holy relics" at his home, charging admission and selling "Slivers of the true cross" souvenirs to visitors.
Sudeley is also the subject of the "A YEAR TO REMEMBER" CREMONA document of hos alleged 1178 voyage to North America.
There were several fictional documents, like Cremona and Zeno, that these pulp quasi historian authors latch onto as an evidence for their foundation of false far fetched fabricated facts of speculative alternative history that the Templars buried their"treasures" on Nova Scotia and/or a hole on Oak Island.

 

[lokiblossom]

Quite elementary, Loki. If Scott Wolter, charlatan at large, has his doubts about endorsing the authenticity of Muir's "Sinclair journals", that in itself is a self explaining statement.

Seems contradictory to me! I would think you would take the opposite view,ie, endorsing the "journals".

Cheers, Loki

 

[lokiblossom]

...are you implying that you, Loki, have "ALL" the information?
That remark is reminiscent of other poster that makes similar claims.

Not at all, but again what points don't you agree with? For discussion purposes of course.

Cheers, Loki

 

[lokiblossom]

Ralph de Sudeley, part time Templar and knight recruiter for Richard III, had a profitable museum displaying "Holy relics" at his home, charging admission and selling "Slivers of the true cross" souvenirs to visitors.
Sudeley is also the subject of the "A YEAR TO REMEMBER" CREMONA document of hos alleged 1178 voyage to North America.
There were several fictional documents, like Cremona and Zeno, that these pulp quasi historian authors latch onto as an evidence for their foundation of false far fetched fabricated facts of speculative alternative history that the Templars buried their"treasures" on Nova Scotia and/or a hole on Oak Island.

Not me!

Cheers, Loki

 

[ECS]

Seems contradictory to me! I would think you would take the opposite view,ie, endorsing the "journals".

Why would I endorse Muir's "Sinclair journals" that she stated were copies of earlier works alleged to be written in Latin, Middle English, and MODERN ENGLISH, not originals written in Henry Sinclair's hand, even she had her doubts concerning their authenticity, that she made 30-40 photocopies then disposed of these copies.
Like Muir's "journals" derived and translated from these photocopies, "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" has NO outside legitimate collaboration by professional historians and academics in any credited respected field or discipline.
'Nuff said!

 

[lokiblossom]

Why would I endorse Muir's "Sinclair journals" that she stated were copies of earlier works alleged to be written in Latin, Middle English, and MODERN ENGLISH, not originals written in Henry Sinclair's hand, even she had her doubts concerning their authenticity, that she made 30-40 photocopies then disposed of these copies.
Like Muir's "journals" derived and translated from these photocopies, "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" has NO outside legitimate collaboration by professional historians and academics in any credited respected field or discipline.
'Nuff said!

You misunderstand me, I could care less about Muir's journals. What I was wondering was how could you, who wrote so much disparaging Wolter's work yet used him as an endorsement on your own view of Muir's work? A simple question that you somewhat answered.

Holy Blood Holy Grail did not claim to be a historical it was more of a supposition. They were mostly chastised for their speculation which they readily admitted as all Bible researchers are prone to do. But, as I asked, where specifically do you not agree with the premises of HBHG for discussion purposes?

You do know that the author's never mentioned Nova Scotia or Annapolis Basin? That was my own conclusion.

Cheers, Loki

 

[ECS]

Yes.
So what do want to discuss concerning HBHG in relation to the Oak Island treasure pit topic?
Or is this like playing 6 degrees of separation from Francis Bacon like a Petter Amundsen groupie?

 

[ARC]

Yes.
So what do want to discuss concerning HBHG in relation to the Oak Island treasure pit topic?
Or is this like playing 6 degrees of separation from Francis Bacon like a Petter Amundsen groupie?

Wasn't that Kevin Bacon ?

Bah who cares... its bacon.

:P

 

[lokiblossom]

Yes.
So what do want to discuss concerning HBHG in relation to the Oak Island treasure pit topic?
Or is this like playing 6 degrees of separation from Francis Bacon like a Petter Amundsen groupie?

Umm, you read the book, I believe you called it "pseudo history", with what specific point or points do you disagree with their conclusions. Would be an interesting discussion, yes?

You see, I miss Andrew Gough's old Arcadia Forum where we dissected in great detail Holy Blood Holy Grail for some 5 years.
At that time there were a lot of paid detractors as well as one serious hoaxer "Ben Hammott" (not his real name) and it became more and more difficult to discuss. Ben is on wikipedia btw, in case you want to catch up on that story.

Cheers, Loki

 

[ECS]

As you stated, HBHG's conclusions are suppositions, speculations that are not supported by legitimate professional academic outside collaboration, and not by the Vatican, of course, and has nothing to do with this Oak Island discussion.
...and the HBHG discussion would border being a religious discussion, which is not welcome on TN.

 

[lokiblossom]

As you stated, HBHG's conclusions are suppositions, speculations that are not supported by legitimate professional academic outside collaboration, and not by the Vatican, of course, and has nothing to do with this Oak Island discussion.
...and the HBHG discussion would border being a religious discussion, which is not welcome on TN.

Yeah,btw, most of the naysayers to HBHG had ulterior motives. Not by the Vatican is an understatement, but legitimate professional academic outside collaboration sounds important. "Outside", I don't think so?

Cheers, Loki

 

[ECS]

Outside of the "fringe" collaboration by professional respected historians and academics is of the utmost importance.
Without that, HBHG is just a pulp profit fairy tale fabricated for the conspiracy gullible who believe supposition and speculation is actually real history.
Loki, do you believe this is real history?

 

[lokiblossom]

Outside of the "fringe" collaboration by professional respected historians and academics is of the utmost importance.
Without that, HBHG is just a pulp profit fairy tale fabricated for the conspiracy gullible who believe supposition and speculation is actually real history.
Loki, do you believe this is real history?

Some is some isn't. As I mentioned earlier the authors'called it a supposition. If you have read it you must realize the amount of research that went into the book, and as I have said many times, before Al Gore's internet.

Cheers, Loki

 

[ECS]

You misunderstand me, I could care less about Muir's journals...

So we actually agree about the Sinclair journals presented by Diana Jean Muir as being highly suspect, with the "voyage" based on the fictional Zeno Narrative that has been proven to be a hoax.
Do you also consider Ralph de Sudeley's A Year To Remember Cremona Document to be a fictional 1178 voyage story?

 

[SSR]

A masonic suggestion was first hinted in chapter 9 of Thomas C. Halliburton's work "'The Old Judge" published in 1848. There is no documented OI detail that predates this fictional treasure search account. What is notable is that the story makes fun of the masonic links to what is given as foolish geometric detective endeavour that leads to the death of the hero in a shaft in Chester Bay (years before that actually happened). The press stories that came to be published in the years after about OI lore contain many details which Haliburton's account were based in. It is as if some assumed that the work was not a fiction, but instead was a coy attempt to educate readers about things that were mocked by a great many that were actually true. In my opinion the entire OI mythology rests on this interpretation. It is a desire to believe that Haliburton's allegory is in fact a clue to realities that are the opposite of what we are served with. That's a huge leap that some obviously made. The story took off from there when the searcher activities commenced in the years immediately after the publication of this work. The 40 year history of the treasure hunt is even inspired by the accounts. If you are in search of initial ideas for the OI story check out this work of a famous Nova Scotian.