New site?...with different clue versions?

[deducer]

Why?, the Mulatos didn’t have a union, the point is this, The gold was taxed at every step of the operation, mining, extraction, refining, smelting, stamping and transportation, it all adds up to a lot.
and the labor was cheap.

The other thing is- I don't just do research, I also walk the walk, and I've been over enough terrain in the Superstitions and further south, to understand how harsh it really is out there in the desert and that helped me to understand that nobody carried more than they absolutely had to. At the time period we are concerned with, as far as "repository" the Superstitons were a very long way from the nearest point of civilization, or presidio. Nearest one was Tubac and even then, was only founded in 1752. Another presidio was founded in Tucson in 1775 but that was after the era of "deposits" had ended.

 

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[deducer]

I cannot answer as to why anyone would do anything, and it would be reckless to do so, however, there are some considerable mysteries pertaining to the Superstitions and the history that are not easily answered, for instance, as stated in “Before Rebellion”, why did the Jesuits have such trouble getting escorts for entradas north of the Gila river?
why was no one allowed north of that river by a decree from the King?, yet there is a lot of evidence that the Spanish were active north of the Gila, what about all of the stone trail markers within the Sups? I have seen faces and horses heads, not small scratchings, large complex works, those mountains are special, a lot was happening within them and there had to be a reason for it.

I would say it's far more to do with the fact that the Gila river was the northern boundary of the territory referred to as "Pimería Alta de Sonora y Sinaloa" as chartered by the Viceroyalty of New Spain, and awarded to the Jesuits for purpose of converting, and reductions by which natives were to be relocated and organized per the Eurocentric concept of cities and towns, within this territory.

On the other hand, the Viceroyalty were only too aware of the Jesuit proclivity towards aggressive expansion and exploration and their industriousness and ability to do more than one thing at a time- garnering wealth for the order while proselytizing. I imagine they were keen to emphasize that none shall venture north of the river, which is arguably why a certain horse pastos al norte del rio.

 

[deducer]

Although I haven't really formed a theory about Waltz's connection to any of the above, I suspect what he did find was a "waypoint" cache of ore that was meant to be traded and probably refined somewhere further to the south or southwest.

If a very old account is to be believed, the mine and the stored ore which today is referred to as the LDM, was originally called the "Padre's Mine."

Interestingly enough, in reading the accounts, whether by, or to do with the Peraltas, or other Mexicans, none of those accounts contain anything about how they came to find the mine known as the LDM.

So that lends credence to the idea that it had already been found by the time they came upon the scene.

 

[arcana-exploration]

I've long held a belief in the possibility that Jesuits were responsible for the Stone Maps, but not any mining in the Superstition Mountains, and certainly not the LDM. The fact the Stone Maps, as well as the LH, Stone Crosses, and Cursum Perficio feature both Spanish and Latin, as well as obviously important references to the "Holy Faith", lends support to my theories in that regard, IMHO. I've shared many parts of my theories on this and other websites over the last eight years or so, with some of what I have said reinforced or born out by the research findings of RG, as well as the recorded testimony of Tumlinson's relatives.
But, until I see unambiguous physical evidence of a Jesuit presence within the range, I currently believe that while they may have known there was something of great importance out there, to which the maps were to meant to lead, that Fr. Keller's failed entrada was as close to it as they ever got.

Although I haven't really formed a theory about Waltz's connection to any of the above, I suspect what he did find was a "waypoint" cache of ore that was meant to be traded and probably refined somewhere further to the south or southwest.

Wayne - What would you think if there was no DIRECT connection between the Dutchman and the stones, but the information on the stones and a couple of maps were to lead to a small canyon that checked off every box on what the Dutchman clues tell us what we should find at his site, if it exists, and you then reverse engineer both his information on his route and the stones pathway and both still lead to the same canyon. And you then are able to reverse engineer one of the maps and to your surprise, it does the same and then to your total surprise one of the maps has an overlapping connection to the information on the stones, how could that be possible? Just saying. thanks Jeff.

 

[somehiker]

In a nutshell, and having considered more than one scenario as to how Waltz could have found himself and his jackpot at the same location where I believe the Heart of the Stone Maps really is, I would have to say that while there are some features within and around that place which match certain clues, a greater number are not. Perhaps that's because many of the "clues" are based on things seen by past LDM seekers in places where they also expected the mine to be. We also know that JW had a long history of prospecting and mining at several gold rush hotspots, and that it's entirely possible that some of the clues attributed to him could have been remembered and rehashed by friends and other acquaintances who happened to be present at times when he was in fact, reminiscing about past (non LDM) mines he had worked. Toss what Roy has said about the transfer of clues for other lost mine tales to the LDM legend, and multiply by the variety of ways each clue might be perceived, both in theory and practice, by those who contributed so many of the current total, and you wind up with something more like a Rube Goldberg machine than a practical solution. Same goes for most of the maps, in that since the majority were drawn by lookers rather than finders, so trying to make sense of, compare or use them is only likely to give you what they got....ie: no mine and no gold.

Reverse Engineering ?
Only works if you already have actually found and entered the mine.....and that you also were able to obtain samples from that mine which have also been proven to match the ore from under Waltz's deathbed...... Have you accomplished that yet ?
Starting anywhere other than that, regardless of how many clues you believe exist in the vicinity, will only take you further away from his mine, IMO.
,

 

[Al D]

Great Point about the Franciscans and it almost never seems to be touched on very much in Discussions. My last post was sent by mistake before I was done. The point I was going to make was that the Jesuits could not a caravan of gold with when they were recalled, not because of the Apaches but because of New Spain Don's who they were at odds with, also the New Spain Spaniards felt the Jesuits, had gold and wanted it for themselves, they were becoming ready to be independent from Spains grasp and would take any gold before departing Vera Cruz. Also, the Jesuits felt it would be for there returning Jesuit brothers who would someday return. So my point is and would like some input on this------ if there is or are large catches or cache in the Supers, would it not be most likely to be Jesuits. One they most likely had gold, they could not take it back to Spain, they did not want to take it back even if they could (the country and the church gave them all most no financial help and they were bitter, not just in New Spain but all through the area's of conquest so they went rouge the King knew that hence the recall worldwide. So other than someone like Wattz and his partner stashing their fruits of labor, it makes sense to me that the Jesuits had the gold, had the motive to hide a catch and had the skills on how to hide in an area that no- one knew as they did. They were smart, they were master masons, they could disguise and hide something better than anyone had and they were masters at making maps that must likely only other fellow Jesuits could translate. So if there is a large catch is most likely not Jesuit, IMO I feel no one other than them checks off the boxes Motive- product- skillset -the advantage of familiarity. IMO. What does everyone else think?, Potbelly and Wayne what do you both think?

The gold stash, if it exist, is most likely, Not Jesuit. Look at the huge amount of work that went into the system in the Superstitions, the mesquite forest, the numerous old caves, the charcoal pits, the trail markers, the Jesuits did not have the manpower to accomplish any of that. It is more likely, in my opinion, that the Jesuits found the gold operation sometime after 1751 because after the Pima uprising in 1751, the Spanish punished the Pima by killing most of the young men decimating the population, it was the Pima that kept the Apache in check and out of the mountains, but after the Spanish operation, there were no Pima's left who could fight the Apache and then the Apache moved into the mountains and killed the Spanish who were working there
the Jesuits heard about it and went in to give them a proper burial and discovered the gold operation.

 

[arcana-exploration]

In a nutshell, and having considered more than one scenario as to how Waltz could have found himself and his jackpot at the same location where I believe the Heart of the Stone Maps really is, I would have to say that while there are some features within and around that place which match certain clues, a greater number are not. Perhaps that's because many of the "clues" are based on things seen by past LDM seekers in places where they also expected the mine to be. We also know that JW had a long history of prospecting and mining at several gold rush hotspots, and that it's entirely possible that some of the clues attributed to him could have been remembered and rehashed by friends and other acquaintances who happened to be present at times when he was in fact, reminiscing about past (non LDM) mines he had worked. Toss what Roy has said about the transfer of clues for other lost mine tales to the LDM legend, and multiply by the variety of ways each clue might be perceived, both in theory and practice, by those who contributed so many of the current total, and you wind up with something more like a Rube Goldberg machine than a practical solution. Same goes for most of the maps, in that since the majority were drawn by lookers rather than finders, so trying to make sense of, compare or use them is only likely to give you what they got....ie: no mine and no gold.

Reverse Engineering ?
Only works if you already have actually found and entered the mine.....and that you also were able to obtain samples from that mine which have also been proven to match the ore from under Waltz's deathbed...... Have you accomplished that yet ?
Starting anywhere other than that, regardless of how many clues you believe exist in the vicinity, will only take you further away from his mine, IMO.
,

Of course, a lot of the so-called clues will never fit because they are not valid, to begin with. Speaking of hearts what is your take on Noto Triangluem? And another question the matchbox I believe, Schuessee has could not be used for a comparison of type, so who has the gold under the bed, the Arizona office of mines in the museum, is the content of Jacob's 's gold on record?

 

[arcana-exploration]

The gold stash, if it exist, is most likely, Not Jesuit. Look at the huge amount of work that went into the system in the Superstitions, the mesquite forest, the numerous old caves, the charcoal pits, the trail markers, the Jesuits did not have the manpower to accomplish any of that. It is more likely, in my opinion, that the Jesuits found the gold operation sometime after 1751 because after the Pima uprising in 1751, the Spanish punished the Pima by killing most of the young men decimating the population, it was the Pima that kept the Apache in check and out of the mountains, but after the Spanish operation, there were no Pima's left who could fight the Apache and then the Apache moved into the mountains and killed the Spanish who were working there
the Jesuits heard about it and went in to give them a proper burial and discovered the gold operation.

So what did they do with their gold and religious objects of wealth, in 1767 during the time os suppression? thanks, Jeff.

 

[deducer]

On the Jesuits 'presence' in the Superstitions, I would like to see some kind of documentation to support that contention, thanks in advance. Side thing, I wonder why no one ever even considers the Franciscan padres activities re: mining, when they absolutely were involved with mining in Pimeria Alta, and were likewise expelled by the government, though they were given a full YEAR to get out.

Hi Roy, good to see you back with us.

I wanted to get back to this- seeing that nobody has answered this yet. Jesuit presence in the Superstitions- as of now, there is no smoking gun. But I am not surprised that there isn't any- from our long discussions in the Jesuit thread, you know their penchant for stealth, their tendency towards concealment over the centuries, so by the time they got to the Pimeria Alta, they were well practiced in this art.

I'd say it's rather a process of elimination.

I have seen with my own eyes, first hand evidence of a large concealment operation, and have more than enough photographic and video evidence to support this premise. My thinking is then: Who else would have the discipline to undertake such a large operation, and in secrecy? Who else would have the motivation to vanish and leave behind no trace, no blatant "X marks the spot"? Who else would cache for the long term, and for beyond their generation?

The Mexicans, and to a much lesser extent, the Spanish, on the other hand, operated on a smaller scale, left minimal signs and simple directions, not riddles or ciphers. They concealed only enough to get through the summer seasons, until they could return in the fall to resume extraction. There were exceptions of course- they did have at least two, probably more, large workings, one of which came to be know as the LDM. They had a central camp in Marsh Valley, another smaller one on Peter's Mesa at the Salt Flat, another on the northern end of Bluff Spring Mountain. There are remnants of arrestras at both locations which were used to reduce ore before hauling them off to the smelters at the bottom of the mountains.

 

[arcana-exploration]

Hi Roy, good to see you back with us.

I wanted to get back to this- seeing that nobody has answered this yet. Jesuit presence in the Superstitions- as of now, there is no smoking gun. But I am not surprised that there isn't any- from our long discussions in the Jesuit thread, you know their penchant for stealth, their tendency towards concealment over the centuries, so by the time they got to the Pimeria Alta, they were well practiced in this art.

I'd say it's rather a process of elimination.

I have seen with my own eyes, first hand evidence of a large concealment operation, and have more than enough photographic and video evidence to support this premise. My thinking is then: Who else would have the discipline to undertake such a large operation, and in secrecy? Who else would have the motivation to vanish and leave behind no trace, no blatant "X marks the spot"? Who else would cache for the long term, and for beyond their generation?

The Mexicans, and to a much lesser extent, the Spanish, on the other hand, operated on a smaller scale, left minimal signs and simple directions, not riddles or ciphers. They concealed only enough to get through the summer seasons, until they could return in the fall to resume extraction. There were exceptions of course- they did have at least two, probably more, large workings, one of which came to be know as the LDM. They had a central camp in Marsh Valley, another smaller one on Peter's Mesa at the Salt Flat, another on the northern end of Bluff Spring Mountain. There are remnants of arrestras at both locations which were used to reduce ore before hauling them off to the smelters at the bottom of the mountains.

Deducer Great post on the Jesuits. Three related questions 1 why is there almost no conversation about the Franciscans ever, why is that? 2 Would any maps if proven to be Jesuit and then they tied into the site in question, how far would that go to proving their involvement, that may be the best we ever may get because of their secrecy. How important would that information be? 3. DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY THOUGHT'S ON " NOTO - TRIANGULUM"? tHANKS jEFF.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

The Jesuits in North America claimed to have done no mining, unlike their brethren in south America. The mission priest in North American that was rounded up, effectively did no mining, it was done by the Jesuit co-adjuntors. They had many, many dore bars of th various metals, particularly Gold and Silver from you know what mines that were sent overland to Victorio Peak, and Cabillo Mtn, where they developed almacenes for holding until they could be sent down the Rio del Norte to Matamoros to a waiting Jesuit ship for transhipment to the Vatican. I have information that they also had some workings a in the Superstition, but that in from a not too reliable data. Yes, they could easily have had thhave worked the Superticion Mts.

 

[deducer]

Deducer Great post on the Jesuits. Three related questions 1 why is there almost no conversation about the Franciscans ever, why is that? 2 Would any maps if proven to be Jesuit and then they tied into the site in question, how far would that go to proving their involvement, that may be the best we ever may get because of their secrecy. How important would that information be? 3. DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY THOUGHT'S ON " NOTO - TRIANGULUM"? tHANKS jEFF.

1) Because the Franciscans did not traffic in mining or in what we would call "treasure," hoarding, or otherwise. They were much less a gung-ho, aggressive, "soldiering" faith than the early Jesuits were.

2) Because of their penchant for secrecy, the order never explicitly identified itself on any map or documents concerning illegal wealth, except perhaps internally- so I wouldn't hold my breath in that regard, but you never know.

3) Noto triangulum is what it says it is- basically, observe or note the triangle. It's a landmark, a geological feature. And no, you can't find it via google maps, at least not anymore the last time I checked. It seems to have eroded pretty quickly.

 

[somehiker]

Of course, a lot of the so-called clues will never fit because they are not valid, to begin with. Speaking of hearts what is your take on Noto Triangluem? And another question the matchbox I believe, Schuessee has could not be used for a comparison of type, so who has the gold under the bed, the Arizona office of mines in the museum, is the content of Jacob's 's gold on record?

My take on "NOTO TRIANGULUM" ?
It appears on both Latin Heart and Cursum Perficio, and is likely a "tip" to look for a triangle.
Could be a triangular stone or even a triangular opening to an underground "ECCLESIA de SANTA FE".
Perhaps a triangular carving or "mark" showing where entrance can be gained to such a facility. Which may be the case, since "noto" also means "to mark".
Since the triangle symbolizes the holy trinity in Catholicism, and was used as a symbol by several orders, including the Jeuits, I have favored the idea that it was one piece of evidence for a Jesuit connection. That it appears in both written and symbolic form on the CP, found in a book of Jesuit psalms inside a cave in the mountains, as well as it also being a prominent and near-identical symbol on one of the Stone Crosses also seemed to favor a Jesuit connection IMO.

Azdave might know if the matchbox could be analyzed via XRF, which is non-destructive. As far as the other samples go, I'm sure the current owner(s) would also prefer any further testing to also be non-destructive. A full assay report, done previously and published by Thomas Glover is the baseline most likely to be used for comparison with any ore presented by and tested by future claimants. I don't believe the Arizona Bureau of Mines, or the Arizona Department of Mines and Mineral Resources maintains a data base of ore samples from "unknown" locations....including what has been handed down from that found in Waltz's candlebox.

 

[arcana-exploration]

1) Because the Franciscans did not traffic in mining or in what we would call "treasure," hoarding, or otherwise. They were much less a gung-ho, aggressive, "soldiering" faith than the early Jesuits were.

2) Because of their penchant for secrecy, the paid never explicitly identified itself on any map or documents concerning illegal wealth, except perhaps internally- so I wouldn't hold my breath in that regard, but you never know.

3) Noto triangulum is what it says it is- basically, observe or note the triangle. It's a landmark, a geological feature. And no, you can't find it via google maps, at least not anymore the last time I checked. It seems to have eroded pretty quickly.

Thanks, Deduce. The answer to question # I That makes sense little involvement therefor little interest in them. #2 I knew about the Jesuits who took the Exstream oath could not physically mine for gold or do other things, so used paid unappointed paid Jesuits to do certain tasks. But Question was about if a Jesuit map that was to link them to the site how significant would that be.

#3 I was hoping that would be your answer. And it also tells you were on site to look. it took me a long time to figure that out but, they are on site and they are 3 very large boulders that are higher up above the mine and other things, we have them on the drones, it is crazy they are almost 3 perfect angle boulders each about the size of a car, they are next to each other, they are not man-made.

In an earlier post-Wayne post (this thread) a list of about 60 or so dutchman clues many I had never seen, before but twice there was a reference to look for some triangle stones. Any thoughts from anyone?

 

[azdave35]

My take on "NOTO TRIANGULUM" ?
It appears on both Latin Heart and Cursum Perficio, and is likely a "tip" to look for a triangle.
Could be a triangular stone or even a triangular opening to an underground "ECCLESIA de SANTA FE".
Perhaps a triangular carving or "mark" showing where entrance can be gained to such a facility. Which may be the case, since "noto" also means "to mark".
Since the triangle symbolizes the holy trinity in Catholicism, and was used as a symbol by several orders, including the Jeuits, I have favored the idea that it was one piece of evidence for a Jesuit connection. That it appears in both written and symbolic form on the CP, found in a book of Jesuit psalms inside a cave in the mountains, as well as it also being a prominent and near-identical symbol on one of the Stone Crosses also seemed to favor a Jesuit connection IMO.

Azdave might know if the matchbox could be analyzed via XRF, which is non-destructive. As far as the other samples go, I'm sure the current owner(s) would also prefer any further testing to also be non-destructive. A full assay report, done previously and published by Thomas Glover is the baseline most likely to be used for comparison with any ore presented by and tested by future claimants. I don't believe the Arizona Bureau of Mines, or the Arizona Department of Mines and Mineral Resources maintains a data base of ore samples from "unknown" locations....including what has been handed down from that found in Waltz's candlebox.

wayne..xrf is definitely non destructive and would be a good test for the match box....as far as the az dept of mines goes...we had a mineral museum at the dept. with alot of samples from mines all over az...a former governor decided we no longer needed this museum and it went away...so did most of the valuable specimens in the museum...funny how that happened..i guess the specimens grew legs and walked off...anyhow they were never seen again

 

[somehiker]

1) Because the Franciscans did not traffic in mining or in what we would call "treasure," hoarding, or otherwise. They were much less a gung-ho, aggressive, "soldiering" faith than the early Jesuits were.

2) Because of their penchant for secrecy, the order never explicitly identified itself on any map or documents concerning illegal wealth, except perhaps internally- so I wouldn't hold my breath in that regard, but you never know.

3) Noto triangulum is what it says it is- basically, observe or note the triangle. It's a landmark, a geological feature. And no, you can't find it via google maps, at least not anymore the last time I checked. It seems to have eroded pretty quickly.

Not just that, but the Jesuits were there, and in de-facto control, when far fewer potential witnesses were present.
By the time the Franciscans showed up, they wouldn't have been able to do the kinds of "under the table" wealth building that the Jesuits were accused of.

The CP could be one example where somebody slipped up in that regard. Not that he considered that he might lose the book in a raid, like that on Keller's entrada in 1743.....

View attachment 2.bmp

It's still there....hasn't eroded at all....which shows why, if one goes thru imagery from different dates and times (forward and back) such landmarks are unreliable clues, unless they are also viewed and reviewed from a ground level perspective.

 

[arcana-exploration]

Great stuff Wayne, I have yo go to my adult son's hockey game, I have some other questions about what you just posted, I will post back later tonight. Also if you do mind Wayne what is your last initial? If you do want to say I understand. Thanks Jeff.

 

[somehiker]

S.....for Spencer

Why do you think there are 18 dots...evenly spaced along the "trail" on the two map stones.
Do you think they represent cairns (piles of rock) visible at a equal distance from each other, or something else ?

 

[sailaway]

view of Tortillia Mountain from above Cliff Dwellings.

Jeff, you may want to consider going to the top of the mountain from the county gravel pit/ranch. Follow the ravine south. Takes you to the back side of the cliffs so that approach to the upper area is not as hazardous. Then at top of the mountain you have to turn around and go back north along the ridge to get to your area.
Thing is one clue you have over looked is that from the mine, Jacob Waltz made it in one day to the board house and back to the mine. I do not think that is possible from anywhere off of route 88. Look at the Don's camp and see if there is a trail that you could do that from your spot. I suggest you attempt to do that from your location, and remember Waltz was in his late 60's when he did this. It was documented that the trip happened from the ranch owner. You guys are tough bikers so if you can't, then you know Waltz couldn't.

https://www.denverpost.com/2013/01/23/lost-dutchman-seekers-remains-confirmed-to-be-jesse-capens/

I do not doubt for a second that you found a mining area, as I have talked about the area you are looking at in my thread. Is it the Lost Dutchman, I highly doubt it. If you read the Bark Papers you will find he had a gold mine close to where your area is and even had a mule fall off the cliffs loaded with explosives. However I believe you are in the Sombrero Mines Area.
P.S Gopros and phone cams sux for documentary
You may want to delete off your site about launching a drone in the wilderness as that is admission of a crime. This can not be used in a book or any other style as it is illegal to launch a drone within the boundary of the Tonto Wilderness.

 

[somehiker]

wayne..xrf is definitely non destructive and would be a good test for the match box....as far as the az dept of mines goes...we had a mineral museum at the dept. with alot of samples from mines all over az...a former governor decided we no longer needed this museum and it went away...so did most of the valuable specimens in the museum...funny how that happened..i guess the specimens grew legs and walked off...anyhow they were never seen again

Although Jeff hasn't answered my previous question, I would suggest that if they have obtained any samples of gold ore from the mine they found, that they send you a couple that you can use your XRF unit on. Or they could try and get down for the Rendezvous and have you do the testing there. Whatever the results, I'm sure they would be interesting.

The specimens from the Mineral Museum probably got divvied up between the staff who were still there at the time.
That's how it usually goes.