New site?...with different clue versions?

[PotBelly Jim]

This is one of many examples why I reject the Holmes account, why would Waltz even bother with the loss of some fine gold dust when his ore was so rich? And Waltz stated that there was enough gold there to make many people rich.
and, the threat of Apache attacks was still to be contended with and rockers make a lot of noise.

Many of the Holmes Manuscript stories appear to be modified snippets of tales already in circulation. Not sure why, as there are quite a few possibilities as to how this may have occurred.

One part that makes me wonder is the part about Apache Jack. Pretty much the same as Bark's story. How the story got to Holmes is a mystery to me, as I doubt Bark would have given him the time of day. If it's true that Brownie wrote it after his mom passed in 1943, and Bark's notes didn't get distributed until later, then the stories are independent of each other.

Another weird aspect is that Brownie doesn't seem to know the name of the rancher in Prescott when he relates the Apache Jack story. As we know, it was Jim Bark's buddy, George Scholey. The strange part is later in the Holmes Manuscript, Brownie mentions George Scholey by name, but doesn't connect him to the Apache Jack story...it's almost as if he knows who George Scholey is, but doesn't know he was the rancher from Prescott he talked about earlier.

In the same section, Brownie says he recieved the ore from Waltz. I've often wondered if the "Scholey disconnect" and the statement of receiving ore directly from Waltz, indicates that his father Dick actually wrote that section.

 

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[azdave35]

It is very possible for there to be different formations of gold within the same mountain range, with that said, I think it should be noted that the geology of the Superstition mountains is not conducive to the formation of gold.
it is interesting to note that the areas where there is a lot of busted quartz, there is no mine shaft or hole, and no discernible quartz vein, it is more likely, in my opinion, that the general premise of Kenworthy is correct in that the Superstitions was a depository of gold recovered from a number of mines which represented the Kings royal fifth. This concept accounts for the numerous mine tunnels found which have not one trace of gold or gold bearing material.
It explains almost all of the enigmas of this story, digging mine tunnels in areas where there shouldn’t be any gold, the arrastras and charcoal pits, numerous rock houses etc the mystery of the mesquite forest and Kenworthy’s trail markers.

alan..dont believe what you read about the geology of the superstitions...there are plenty of gold,silver and copper mines in the supers

 

[azdave35]

Many other posts related to this, but for sake of saving space I'll not quote them all...since Wayne brought it up first, I quoted him.

Here’s where a bookworm can help out

Let's assume for sake of argument that the dry-washer story is true.

This story didn't originate with Holmes. John D. Mitchell talked about Waltz’s “dry washer”. It helps to have read all of his work, in order to understand where Mitchell was coming from here. For example:

In “Lost Mines of the Great Southwest”, Mitchell says “…the two men returned to Florence, where a carpenter made two dry-washers for them, which they carried to the placer ground.”

PLACER ground. Not LODE MINE. Looks like everyone caught that, by reading follow-on posts.

Where it comes in handy to have a good understanding of the totality of his work, is how Mitchell came to have this information. For now, keep in mind that the book above was a general lost treasure book, and space was limited, and edited.

In his Desert Mag. article of March 1941, it becomes clear what the real story was:

“A month later Jacob Walz reappeared in Florence looking for someone to make a dry washer or rocker small enough to be packed on the back of a burro. He was directed to another German known only as Frank, who was making his living doing odd jobs of carpenter work around Florence. While the placer machine was being completed Walz told the carpenter he had found some very rich placer gravel near Iron Mountain on a branch of Pinto Creek and that he was prospecting upstream to find the vein from which the gold came….<snip>…
Old Frank, who later lived in the Pioneer’s Home in Prescott said the location of the much hunted mine did not seem to be much of a secret in those days and that many old timers like himself knew that it was located somewhere on Pinto Creek not far from Iron Mountain.”

So any reference to a dry-washer or rocker, found in the Supes near a LODE mine, and attributed to be "Waltz's Dry-Washer" is a bit of a stretch, to say the least, as Waltz was using his small rocker in placer gravels. It was small and portable, not large and unapackable; and whether it was a dry-washer, a rocker, or some combination thereof, is not entirely known.

jim...pinto creek is about 8 or 9 miles east of iron mountain by the big copper pit mine...there is a west fork of pinto creek that originates on iron mountain near rogers trough and runs east into pinto creek..we used to do some placering on pinto and as far as i know there are no mines in pinto creek..the placer gold was coming from the washes that drain from the big copper mines to the east of pinto...there is still plenty of placer gold in pinto creek but the copper mines closed off the access to it

 

[Al D]

alan..dont believe what you read about the geology of the superstitions...there are plenty of gold,silver and copper mines in the supers

I will look into that
thanks Dave,

 

[PotBelly Jim]

jim...pinto creek is about 8 or 9 miles east of iron mountain by the big copper pit mine...there is a west fork of pinto creek that originates on iron mountain near rogers trough and runs east into pinto creek..we used to do some placering on pinto and as far as i know there are no mines in pinto creek..the placer gold was coming from the washes that drain from the big copper mines to the east of pinto...there is still plenty of placer gold in pinto creek but the copper mines closed off the access to it

Yup...tried the east fork myself in my younger days...not that I knew what I was doing back then, so not surprising I found no gold!

The "different ores" question brings to mind that little chunk of Black Queen ore we picked up in April...until Josh said he had gotten it out of the Mammoth Looked more like Black Queen ore than the real Black Queen ore did...and nothing like Mammoth ore...go figure...

 

[deducer]

It is very possible for there to be different formations of gold within the same mountain range, with that said, I think it should be noted that the geology of the Superstition mountains is not conducive to the formation of gold.
it is interesting to note that the areas where there is a lot of busted quartz, there is no mine shaft or hole, and no discernible quartz vein, it is more likely, in my opinion, that the general premise of Kenworthy is correct in that the Superstitions was a depository of gold recovered from a number of mines which represented the Kings royal fifth. This concept accounts for the numerous mine tunnels found which have not one trace of gold or gold bearing material.
It explains almost all of the enigmas of this story, digging mine tunnels in areas where there shouldn’t be any gold, the arrastras and charcoal pits, numerous rock houses etc the mystery of the mesquite forest and Kenworthy’s trail markers.

If the Superstitions were a repository, in no way would gold-bearing ore have been transported there over long distance and rough terrain. It would have already been refined as much as possible prior to transportation, to cut down as much as possible on weight.

The other thing to think about are the presence of smelters outside the mountains themselves, such as at QC or Twin Buttes.. hardly an act of secrecy. It would make more sense for them to have served as rough refineries for those carrying gold back to Mexico.

 

[azdave35]

Yup...tried the east fork myself in my younger days...not that I knew what I was doing back then, so not surprising I found no gold!

The "different ores" question brings to mind that little chunk of Black Queen ore we picked up in April...until Josh said he had gotten it out of the Mammoth Looked more like Black Queen ore than the real Black Queen ore did...and nothing like Mammoth ore...go figure...

we did ok by the iron bridge on the main pinto creek...i knew a guy that was working pinto creek back in the 60s or 70s....he found an old palm tree trunk that some old miner had cut sluice riffles in it and used it to recover gold...he cleaned it out and it still had gold in it..alot of history on pinto creek..too bad we cant get in there anymore

 

[Al D]

If the Superstitions were a repository, in no way would gold-bearing ore have been transported there over long distance and rough terrain. It would have already been refined as much as possible prior to transportation, to cut down as much as possible on weight.

The other thing to think about are the presence of smelters outside the mountains themselves, such as at QC or Twin Buttes.. hardly an act of secrecy. It would make more sense for them to have served as rough refineries for those carrying gold back to Mexico.

Makes sense, but.. I have a map that indicates otherwise, it shows a wagon load of gold ore that was being transported north and was lost as a result of the Pima uprising in 1751, the real question is, where were they going?
every trail is established where there is water, never more that two days between wells, except this wagon load was heading north where there was no water for 4 to 5 days journey. They did not head there to escape the Pimas, the drivers would have just left the wagon, also, it is strongly indicated by Espinoza in his book “Description of the Indies” that the King was getting ripped off by almost every one in his employ, so, if the King had a small group of dedicated persons whom he could trust, then the idea of stashing gold in secret to keep it from other officials also makes sense or, perhaps the whole operation was run by those who were stealing from the King, a real incentive to remain secret.
it would have to have been refined and smelted in secret as well.
I also recall reading an account where one researcher speculated that much of the documented cargo was falsified and that gold and silver was smuggled on ships to Spain to avoid paying the tax, also that some went so far as to falsify shipwrecks reporting that the ship and cargo were lost then they kept the cargo the selves stashing it wherever it was convinient.

 

[azdave35]

Yup...tried the east fork myself in my younger days...not that I knew what I was doing back then, so not surprising I found no gold!

The "different ores" question brings to mind that little chunk of Black Queen ore we picked up in April...until Josh said he had gotten it out of the Mammoth Looked more like Black Queen ore than the real Black Queen ore did...and nothing like Mammoth ore...go figure...

yes..i think both of us learned a couple things when you were down here..from what i have learned is that they ran into many different ore types in the mammoth mine over the many years it was worked...its been my experience that when a mine is that deep and extensively worked is that veins come and go and are constantly changing especially in az and in an area like goldfield that is block faulted it will be even worse

 

[Al D]

If the Superstitions were a repository, in no way would gold-bearing ore have been transported there over long distance and rough terrain. It would have already been refined as much as possible prior to transportation, to cut down as much as possible on weight.

Why?, the Mulatos didn’t have a union, the point is this, The gold was taxed at every step of the operation, mining, extraction, refining, smelting, stamping and transportation, it all adds up to a lot.
and the labor was cheap.

 

[arcana-exploration]

nocks and crannies Allan and Deducer Great post both of you. I have two thoughts and would like your input. I agree with Deducer on the depository thing. Why would someone go from Santa Fe (or anywhere) to hide gold, there are enough nooks and crannies between Mexico or Santa Fe to hide gold and not worry about the many security issues on a long Journey. Other than some on-site mines stash like old Jacob and his partner the only one to be that make4s sense, is the Jesuits, and actually to me at least it makes a lot of sense. If you read

Before Rebellion, you realize how isolated they were from Spain and the Church if they sent a letter back it took over a year if not longer to reach Spain, and half the time they were intercepted along the way. When the Jesuits were recalled it was worldwide not just New Spain, all across the globe Jesuits had choices to make and all did not make the same choice. The Jesuits here know mostly they would never come back,

 

[Al D]

nocks and crannies Allan and Deducer Great post both of you. I have two thoughts and would like your input. I agree with Deducer on the depository thing. Why would someone go from Santa Fe (or anywhere) to hide gold, there are enough nooks and crannies between Mexico or Santa Fe to hide gold and not worry about the many security issues on a long Journey. Other than some on-site mines stash like old Jacob and his partner the only one to be that make4s sense, is the Jesuits, and actually to me at least it makes a lot of sense. If you read

Before Rebellion, you realize how isolated they were from Spain and the Church if they sent a letter back it took over a year if not longer to reach Spain, and half the time they were intercepted along the way. When the Jesuits were recalled it was worldwide not just New Spain, all across the globe Jesuits had choices to make and all did not make the same choice. The Jesuits here know mostly they would never come back,

I cannot answer as to why anyone would do anything, and it would be reckless to do so, however, there are some considerable mysteries pertaining to the Superstitions and the history that are not easily answered, for instance, as stated in “Before Rebellion”, why did the Jesuits have such trouble getting escorts for entradas north of the Gila river?
why was no one allowed north of that river by a decree from the King?, yet there is a lot of evidence that the Spanish were active north of the Gila, what about all of the stone trail markers within the Sups? I have seen faces and horses heads, not small scratchings, large complex works, those mountains are special, a lot was happening within them and there had to be a reason for it.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Good posts, incidentally, the bars were Dore' bars, the Gold was refined at selected spots, for instance at Mexico City, and in Spain.

 

[Al D]

nocks and crannies Allan and Deducer Great post both of you. I have two thoughts and would like your input. I agree with Deducer on the depository thing. Why would someone go from Santa Fe (or anywhere) to hide gold, there are enough nooks and crannies between Mexico or Santa Fe to hide gold and not worry about the many security issues on a long Journey.

Actually, there were very few, if any security issues, certainly not a result of the gold, it was worthless to the Indians, they could not spend it and getting caught with it would mean death by gorott, in fact, the Spanish were not afraid or concerned about the Indians, not even the Apache, they never attacked a transport, and as indicated in “Before Rebellion” any coordinated effort such as 1686 or 1751, came as a complete surprise to the Spanish.

 

[Al D]

Good posts, incidentally, the bars were Dore' bars, the Gold was refined at selected spots, for instance at Mexico City, and in Spain.

There is, or was, evidence of refining and smelting operations in Tucson as well as the Superstitions.

 

[Oroblanco]

Hi Roy,

Mitchell published the "carpenter dry-washer story"...what you're remembering is the "deathbed account" to Dick Holmes. Waltz tells Holmes that he had stashed some lumber up near the mine, as he was going to build a "rocker" because he was losing some of the finer ore Just one of many examples in the Holmes manuscript that seem like made-up "fluff" to fill out what was otherwise a true family story...searching for the Lost Dutchman.

One thing that stands out in Mitchell's tale, is that the carpenter, "Old Frank", lived up at the Pioneer's Home in his golden years. This gives us a relative timeframe for the story: The Pioneer's home got it's first resident in 1911. Mitchell published his desert mag article in MAR 1941. So, sometime between late 1911 and around late 1940, Frank (if he existed) would have been a resident.

Since the Pioneer's home had very few beds available, it would seem an easy task to find "Old Frank"...not too high on my list of things to do in Prescott, but who knows...next time I'm at Sharlot Hall I might skip on down there for a quick check.

Take care, Jim

Well the drywasher tale is also found in one of the Pioneer interviews, but I do not know where the rocker story originates. Actually the fact that the 'interview' story is SO different from the widely-accepted versions, and the fact that major portions of the popular legend appear to have been shall we say "borrowed" from other, unrelated lost mine stories, plus the fact that SO many have searched the Superstitions using the clues and information from the popular legend without success makes me think that the 'interviews' version is probably the truth.

On the Jesuits 'presence' in the Superstitions, I would like to see some kind of documentation to support that contention, thanks in advance. Side thing, I wonder why no one ever even considers the Franciscan padres activities re: mining, when they absolutely were involved with mining in Pimeria Alta, and were likewise expelled by the government, though they were given a full YEAR to get out.

On the Superstitions as a good place to find gold, silver, copper, I would say that both of you are right. Much of the Superstitions is volcanic type rocks, not known to be good host rocks for metallic mineral deposits, and conversely, the calderas rim areas are actually very promising locations for the type of hydrothermal intrusive veins which often host gold, silver and copper. Also, there are a number of mines in the Superstitions were not gold OR silver mines, like the silica claims, the mercury mine, the dacite etc.

Please do continue;

 

[arcana-exploration]

Well the drywasher tale is also found in one of the Pioneer interviews, but I do not know where the rocker story originates. Actually the fact that the 'interview' story is SO different from the widely-accepted versions, and the fact that major portions of the popular legend appear to have been shall we say "borrowed" from other, unrelated lost mine stories, plus the fact that SO many have searched the Superstitions using the clues and information from the popular legend without success makes me think that the 'interviews' version is probably the truth.

On the Jesuits 'presence' in the Superstitions, I would like to see some kind of documentation to support that contention, thanks in advance. Side thing, I wonder why no one ever even considers the Franciscan padres activities re: mining, when they absolutely were involved with mining in Pimeria Alta, and were likewise expelled by the government, though they were given a full YEAR to get out.

On the Superstitions as a good place to find gold, silver, copper, I would say that both of you are right. Much of the Superstitions is volcanic type rocks, not known to be good host rocks for metallic mineral deposits, and conversely, the calderas rim areas are actually very promising locations for the type of hydrothermal intrusive veins which often host gold, silver and copper. Also, there are a number of mines in the Superstitions were not gold OR silver mines, like the silica claims, the mercury mine, the dacite etc.

Please do continue;

Great Point about the Franciscans and it almost never seems to be touched on very much in Discussions. My last post was sent by mistake before I was done. The point I was going to make was that the Jesuits could not a caravan of gold with when they were recalled, not because of the Apaches but because of New Spain Don's who they were at odds with, also the New Spain Spaniards felt the Jesuits, had gold and wanted it for themselves, they were becoming ready to be independent from Spains grasp and would take any gold before departing Vera Cruz. Also, the Jesuits felt it would be for there returning Jesuit brothers who would someday return. So my point is and would like some input on this------ if there is or are large catches or cache in the Supers, would it not be most likely to be Jesuits. One they most likely had gold, they could not take it back to Spain, they did not want to take it back even if they could (the country and the church gave them all most no financial help and they were bitter, not just in New Spain but all through the area's of conquest so they went rouge the King knew that hence the recall worldwide. So other than someone like Wattz and his partner stashing their fruits of labor, it makes sense to me that the Jesuits had the gold, had the motive to hide a catch and had the skills on how to hide in an area that no- one knew as they did. They were smart, they were master masons, they could disguise and hide something better than anyone had and they were masters at making maps that must likely only other fellow Jesuits could translate. So if there is a large catch is most likely not Jesuit, IMO I feel no one other than them checks off the boxes Motive- product- skillset -the advantage of familiarity. IMO. What does everyone else think?, Potbelly and Wayne what do you both think?

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Great Point about the Franciscans and it almost never seems to be touched on very much in Discussions. My last post was sent by mistake before I was done. The point I was going to make was that the Jesuits could not a caravan of gold with when they were recalled, not because of the Apaches but because of New Spain Don's who they were at odds with, also the New Spain Spaniards felt the Jesuits, had gold and wanted it for themselves, they were becoming ready to be independent from Spains grasp and would take any gold before departing Vera Cruz. Also, the Jesuits felt it would be for there returning Jesuit brothers who would someday return. So my point is and would like some input on this------ if there is or are large catches or cache in the Supers, would it not be most likely to be Jesuits. One they most likely had gold, they could not take it back to Spain, they did not want to take it back even if they could (the country and the church gave them all most no financial help and they were bitter, not just in New Spain but all through the area's of conquest so they went rouge the King knew that hence the recall worldwide. So other than someone like Wattz and his partner stashing their fruits of labor, it makes sense to me that the Jesuits had the gold, had the motive to hide a catch and had the skills on how to hide in an area that no- one knew as they did. They were smart, they were master masons, they could disguise and hide something better than anyone had and they were masters at making maps that must likely only other fellow Jesuits could translate. So if there is a large catch is most likely not Jesuit, IMO I feel no one other than them checks off the boxes Motive- product- skillset -the advantage of familiarity. IMO. What does everyone else think?, Potbelly and Wayne what do you both think?

Good Morning Jeff,

I've never researched the Jesuits other than reading the traditional histories, so I'm afraid I'll be of no help...my apologies...but I believe you are in good hands with Deducer, Somehiker and Alan in that regard.

Take care, Jim

 

[somehiker]

I've long held a belief in the possibility that Jesuits were responsible for the Stone Maps, but not any mining in the Superstition Mountains, and certainly not the LDM. The fact the Stone Maps, as well as the LH, Stone Crosses, and Cursum Perficio feature both Spanish and Latin, as well as obviously important references to the "Holy Faith", lends support to my theories in that regard, IMHO. I've shared many parts of my theories on this and other websites over the last eight years or so, with some of what I have said reinforced or born out by the research findings of RG, as well as the recorded testimony of Tumlinson's relatives.
But, until I see unambiguous physical evidence of a Jesuit presence within the range, I currently believe that while they may have known there was something of great importance out there, to which the maps were to meant to lead, that Fr. Keller's failed entrada was as close to it as they ever got.

Although I haven't really formed a theory about Waltz's connection to any of the above, I suspect what he did find was a "waypoint" cache of ore that was meant to be traded and probably refined somewhere further to the south or southwest.

 

[deducer]

Makes sense, but.. I have a map that indicates otherwise, it shows a wagon load of gold ore that was being transported north and was lost as a result of the Pima uprising in 1751, the real question is, where were they going?
every trail is established where there is water, never more that two days between wells, except this wagon load was heading north where there was no water for 4 to 5 days journey. They did not head there to escape the Pimas, the drivers would have just left the wagon, also, it is strongly indicated by Espinoza in his book “Description of the Indies” that the King was getting ripped off by almost every one in his employ, so, if the King had a small group of dedicated persons whom he could trust, then the idea of stashing gold in secret to keep it from other officials also makes sense or, perhaps the whole operation was run by those who were stealing from the King, a real incentive to remain secret.
it would have to have been refined and smelted in secret as well.

Alan,

I should probably have stated "if the Superstitions were strictly a repository.."

The Superstitions is an excellent hiding place- many deep and twisting canyons, countless caves- and the range is easily identifiable from a distance, either by the famous side profile of the Superstition mountain itself, or by Twin Buttes which can be seen a long way south. I believe that before the natives came to identify the "foreigners" as enemies, they were only too glad to show these newcomers where some of the really good hiding places were- they, themselves, having been around that range for thousands of years. The Superstitions have been occupied by humans for around 10,000-12,000 years.

The Superstitions were the site of a massive mining operation (or two), although this happened after the "repository" era, roughly a hundred years later, IMO.

I also recall reading an account where one researcher speculated that much of the documented cargo was falsified and that gold and silver was smuggled on ships to Spain to avoid paying the tax, also that some went so far as to falsify shipwrecks reporting that the ship and cargo were lost then they kept the cargo the selves stashing it wherever it was convinient.

Running ships aground was a popular way of transferring wealth while avoiding eyewitnesses, and adding legitimacy to the fact that the ships technically "got wrecked."