New site?...with different clue versions?

[azdave35]

Please feel free to show me any instance of an elaborate treasure hoax that's not just on paper or light scratching.. preferably something that's comparable to what has been shown to you in these pages.

And no, I haven't spent my time just in the Supers.. Many other interesting places I've been to, in Arizona. Have you been to these places?

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deducer..no offence but you have only been on the ldm insanity for a few years...most of us here have been poking around in the hills for 30 or 40 years...and when we first started we saw every marking and carving as a treasure symbol or map to a mine...over the years with experience under out belt we finally stopped worrying about these so called symbols as we learned they were mostly god made or man made...and the men that made them did it do confuse others..or to make men beat their brains out trying to figure them out...there are alot of cruel jokers out there...i have known many ldm hunters over the years and almost every one of them bragged about either making false maps / carvings or destroying legit ones...carrol ingle got here in 1948 and he told me that after the movie lust for gold came out in 1949 the hills were flooded with nutjobs destroying carvings..cactus...landmarks.....now if you want to believe these things you find while hiking are some sort of spanish or jesuit code that is definitely your choice...but try as you may you will never convince us old timers...you may rope in a few newbies but us old timers got smarts real good...we ain't falling for it ...lol..you should have met bob ward or chuck crawford...then you might realize what i mean

 

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[azdave35]

1911A1 .45ACP pistol grips...made from fossilized Dinosaur bone...ask him to show 'em to you

 

[deducer]

Deducer wrote


Well some would say that the Beale cipher is a massive hoax for one. Others would say that global warming/climate change is a massive hoax. It would not be prudent to rule out the possibility of a hoax with any kind of treasure map or treasure tale, the possibility is there for chicanery. It is hardly limited to treasure hunting - look at the Cardiff Giant for an example -who would pay a sculptor to literally carve a huge stone statue simply to make a fool out of someone? Yet it was done. Piltdown man is thought by some to have been a deliberate hoax as well.



PS thought perhaps I should add some to this post. Don't forget what Dave mentioned is a fact - since Americans arrived on the scene in the Superstitions, bored cowboys, treasure hunters and hikers have been making fake "signs" all over the place. Even Barry Storm got into the act, was seen making fake "Spanish signs on Blacktop, apparently to go along with his treasure books and articles.

Examples of elaborate hoaxes

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/damien-hirst-shipwreck_n_58ece936e4b0ca64d91959c0


[url]http://edition.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/east/04/20/thai.hoax/index.html




[/URL]

Hi Roy,

Both are similar in that they are fraud committed on paper. That's easy to achieve. I've seen many fake signs in the Supers and they are all the same- none one of them would take more than a few hours of work. Those committing fraud always seek shortcuts, they would never do things the hard way.

 

[deducer]

deducer..no offence but you have only been on the ldm insanity for a few years...most of us here have been poking around in the hills for 30 or 40 years...and when we first started we saw every marking and carving as a treasure symbol or map to a mine...over the years with experience under out belt we finally stopped worrying about these so called symbols as we learned they were mostly god made or man made...and the men that made them did it do confuse others..or to make men beat their brains out trying to figure them out...there are alot of cruel jokers out there...i have known many ldm hunters over the years and almost every one of them bragged about either making false maps / carvings or destroying legit ones...carrol ingle got here in 1948 and he told me that after the movie lust for gold came out in 1949 the hills were flooded with nutjobs destroying carvings..cactus...landmarks.....now if you want to believe these things you find while hiking are some sort of spanish or jesuit code that is definitely your choice...but try as you may you will never convince us old timers...you may rope in a few newbies but us old timers got smarts real good...we ain't falling for it ...lol..you should have met bob ward or chuck crawford...then you might realize what i mean

As I said, please feel free to show me an example of an elaborate hoax that's comparable.. e.g. a giant sign that's carved, and way up on a cliff. What sort of joker would waste time doing that?

 

[azdave35]

As I said, please feel free to show me an example of an elaborate hoax that's comparable.. e.g. a giant sign that's carved, and way up on a cliff. What sort of joker would waste time doing that?

have you ever seen the giant heart and other markings on north butte by the coke ovens?...they are giant and took alot to create and yet not one person that has seen them up close thinks they are the real deal.....i think you need to learn more about the mental illness's of the human mind...mentally i'll people go to great lengths to create drama...carving a big symbol would be nothing for them..even if they spent a year doing it....they have nothing better to do...question for you...what sane man would dangle off a cliff and create a carving as a symbol for a nearby treasure?...none i venture to say...you want an example of an elaborate hoax ..lol..the silly stone maps comes to mind...that is the king of elaborate hoaxes..also i ask you to show me an example of where any of these maps or symbols have led to anything of value ..like a treasure or lost mine?...chew on that for a bit

 

[markmar]

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45 & 38 ?

 

[azdave35]

45 & 38 ?

marius...45 webley revolver and 45 detonics

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Well, I see we've got our debate going I've yet to see any evidence that large stone carvings were created anywhere in the American SW by...well, anybody. Unless, we're talking post-Adolph Ruth's unfortunate debacle...resulting in all the people who came in and had to MAKE their own signs, symbols, maps, and stories in order to justify their efforts and secure their sought-for place in LDM lore...carry on, Amigos!

 

[azdave35]

Well, I see we've got our debate going I've yet to see any evidence that large stone carvings were created anywhere in the American SW by...well, anybody. Unless, we're talking post-Adolph Ruth's unfortunate debacle...resulting in all the people who came in and had to MAKE their own signs, symbols, maps, and stories in order to justify their efforts and secure their sought-for place in LDM lore...carry on, Amigos!

yep...i keep asking stone map (or any map) guys to show proof of anything of value being found using any of these said maps....and the discussion goes silent..they conveniently change the subject...i know of a couple treasures being found in the superstition area...and none found with a stone or paper map

 

[azdave35]

Well, I see we've got our debate going I've yet to see any evidence that large stone carvings were created anywhere in the American SW by...well, anybody. Unless, we're talking post-Adolph Ruth's unfortunate debacle...resulting in all the people who came in and had to MAKE their own signs, symbols, maps, and stories in order to justify their efforts and secure their sought-for place in LDM lore...carry on, Amigos!

and actually it should be pretty obvious when you are new on the scene ..learn from the mistakes of others before you....all the big shots around here (corbin ,kollenborn, worst ,feldman, etc.) all looked at the stone maps years ago and dismissed them after a few years as useless...that should speak volumes right there

 

[deducer]

have you ever seen the giant heart and other markings on north butte by the coke ovens?...they are giant and took alot to create and yet not one person that has seen them up close thinks they are the real deal.....i think you need to learn more about the mental illness's of the human mind...mentally i'll people go to great lengths to create drama...carving a big symbol would be nothing for them..even if they spent a year doing it....they have nothing better to do...question for you...what sane man would dangle off a cliff and create a carving as a symbol for a nearby treasure?...none i venture to say...you want an example of an elaborate hoax ..lol..the silly stone maps comes to mind...that is the king of elaborate hoaxes..also i ask you to show me an example of where any of these maps or symbols have led to anything of value ..like a treasure or lost mine?...chew on that for a bit

Sure, let's talk about the markings at Twin Buttes.

What's your proof that they were carved as a hoax?

In another thread, I pointed out that it would have been impossible because the area was crisscrossed with mines, not to mention paths- and of course, the coke ovens that you mentioned. Whoever did those giant carvings would have had to do it in such secrecy- and even then someone would have noticed right away.

The alternative answer is more plausible- that these carvings were done long before miners, and subsequently TH's, or hoaxers, came upon the scene.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Sure, let's talk about the markings at Twin Buttes.

What's your proof that they were carved as a hoax?

In another thread, I pointed out that it would have been impossible because the area was crisscrossed with mines, not to mention paths- and of course, the coke ovens that you mentioned. Whoever did those giant carvings would have had to do it in such secrecy- and even then someone would have noticed right away.

The alternative answer is more plausible- that these carvings were done long before miners, and subsequently TH's, or hoaxers, came upon the scene.

Is this not a geoglyph vice a carving? Just asking as I really don't know.

 

[deducer]

and actually it should be pretty obvious when you are new on the scene ..learn from the mistakes of others before you....all the big shots around here (corbin ,kollenborn, worst ,feldman, etc.) all looked at the stone maps years ago and dismissed them after a few years as useless...that should speak volumes right there

The Stone Maps, by themselves, make no sense. You need to know the area that they apply to, and it's very simple- a specific area somewhere out there.

Without the map, you cannot understand the area. Without the area, you can't understand the Stone Maps.

One is useless without the other. That's the genius of the whole thing.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

The Stone Maps, by themselves, make no sense. You need to know the area that they apply to, and it's very simple- a specific area somewhere out there.

Without the map, you cannot understand the area. Without the area, you can't understand the Stone Maps.

One is useless without the other. That's the genius of the whole thing.

I agree, there's a certain amount of genius at work here...Al Reser, Joe R., count all the guys that found a solution to the stone maps...and they were all different...I would bet yours is as well?

 

[deducer]

Is this not a geoglyph vice a carving? Just asking as I really don't know.

Ernie Provence seems to think so, and that's the general consensus- that it's a series of scrapings, e.g., negative geoglyphs. IIRC, he first saw it in the 1960's.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Ernie Provence seems to think so, and that's the general consensus- that it's a series of scrapings, e.g., negative geoglyphs. IIRC, he first saw it in the 1960's.

I'm not so certain that geoglyphs fall into the same category as large prehistoric stone carvings...i.e. there's evidence of geoglyphs that have been documented as legit after study. I'm suspicious of them as they seem connected to treasure along the Gila...so I'm not going to debate them one way or the other, as far as I know they haven't been documented or studied other than treasure hunters going out there and saying they were, or weren't, legit.

 

[azdave35]

I agree, there's a certain amount of genius at work here...Al Reser, Joe R., count all the guys that found a solution to the stone maps...and they were all different...I would bet yours is as well?

true jim...over the years i have known alot ... and i seriously mean alot of people that had all solved the stone maps...the funny thing is they were all in different places..even different states...and not one of them had anything of value to show for their efforts (except the man in cave creek)..he actually drove me around the place and showed me where everything on the stone map matched formations on the ground...and he made a pretty good argument...it was then that i realized for the first time that you could make those (or just about any other map) match your area of interest...chuck crawford had them all figured out...and he would get violently angry if you doubted him

 

[azdave35]

Ernie Provence seems to think so, and that's the general consensus- that it's a series of scrapings, e.g., negative geoglyphs. IIRC, he first saw it in the 1960's.

ernie was a great guy but i don't think he was an expert on glyphs..or anything else for that matter

 

[azdave35]

Sure, let's talk about the markings at Twin Buttes.

What's your proof that they were carved as a hoax?

In another thread, I pointed out that it would have been impossible because the area was crisscrossed with mines, not to mention paths- and of course, the coke ovens that you mentioned. Whoever did those giant carvings would have had to do it in such secrecy- and even then someone would have noticed right away.

The alternative answer is more plausible- that these carvings were done long before miners, and subsequently TH's, or hoaxers, came upon the scene.

deducer..i know you probably think we are a bunch of hicks here in az but believe it or not we have done some investigating on this area and many others...we actually have a university here...wait..actually we have two...and they both have investigated this area and many others...none of them thought they were bonafied enough to do further research...forgive me but i'll take their word over yours

 

[deducer]

ernie was a great guy but i don't think he was an expert on glyphs..or anything else for that matter

He never claimed to be, and he made it pretty clear that he was just hazarding a guess. However, he said that at the time he had seen the scrapings in the '60's, there were ironwood trees growing in the path of some of those scrapings, which would make them pretty old, don't you think?