new show on the dutchman

[RMG1976]

Yes... contrary to what some misinformed FS personnel might tell you, you are allowed by law to prospect in a wilderness area.

Here is the website to the exact law. Doesn't seem as easy as I thought!



Tonto National Forest - Special Places

 

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[Hal Croves]

Yes... contrary to what some misinformed FS personnel might tell you, you are allowed by law to prospect in a wilderness area.

Yes, prospecting is your legal right but anyone doing it there should read the DOI definition.
You may NOT use metal detecting tools to search for a buried cache or treasure trove.
At least that is my understanding.

 

[RMG1976]

The

In your video thread you were next to a well traveled road I believe you said. Do you plan to venture a few miles in? Do a some repelling/rock climbing? Taking video and bringing your drone naturally....

Yes. But unfortunately I seem to be the target of a certain moderator here that likes to delete my posts. As long as that keeps happening, I don't really have the desire to post video links. I'm sure you can understand.

 

[vor]

The

Yes. But unfortunately I seem to be the target of a certain moderator here that likes to delete my posts. As long as that keeps happening, I don't really have the desire to post video links. I'm sure you can understand.

The mods here love me so feel free to name drop.
V
:Sonny:

 

[azblackbird]

Here is the website to the exact law. Doesn't seem as easy as I thought!

No... that's a memo for the sheep who don't know the law to read and be buffaloed into believing that prospecting without a POO in a wilderness area is forbidden. Nothing could be further from the truth. Like I said. Misinformed FS personnel like to scare people away with their own interpretations of the law. Makes their job a whole lot easier if they can make you think you have to go through all kinds of red tape to exercise your rights.

Here's the law... https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/16/1133

(2) Mineral activities, surveys for mineral value Nothing in this chapter shall prevent within national forest wilderness areas any activity, including prospecting, for the purpose of gathering information about mineral or other resources, if such activity is carried on in a manner compatible with the preservation of the wilderness environment. Furthermore, in accordance with such program as the Secretary of the Interior shall develop and conduct in consultation with the Secretary of Agriculture, such areas shall be surveyed on a planned, recurring basis consistent with the concept of wilderness preservation by the United States Geological Survey and the United States Bureau of Mines to determine the mineral values, if any, that may be present; and the results of such surveys shall be made available to the public and submitted to the President and Congress.

 

[RMG1976]

No... that's a memo for the sheep who don't know the law to read and be buffaloed into believing that prospecting without a POO in a wilderness area is forbidden. Nothing could be further from the truth. Like I said. Misinformed FS personnel like to scare people away with their own interpretations of the law. Makes their job a whole lot easier if they can make you think you have to go through all kinds of red tape to exercise your rights.

Here's the law... https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/16/1133

(2) Mineral activities, surveys for mineral value Nothing in this chapter shall prevent within national forest wilderness areas any activity, including prospecting, for the purpose of gathering information about mineral or other resources, if such activity is carried on in a manner compatible with the preservation of the wilderness environment. Furthermore, in accordance with such program as the Secretary of the Interior shall develop and conduct in consultation with the Secretary of Agriculture, such areas shall be surveyed on a planned, recurring basis consistent with the concept of wilderness preservation by the United States Geological Survey and the United States Bureau of Mines to determine the mineral values, if any, that may be present; and the results of such surveys shall be made available to the public and submitted to the President and Congress.

Wow! Very different story

I'll def have to do some research! Or just make Hal
Croves do the digging and if the ranger comes - just pretend I don't know him and keep
Waking!

In all seriousness - Id need to buy a metal dector first - which I plan to do shortly!

 

[azblackbird]

Wow! Very different story. I'll def have to do some research!

Researching and knowing the law is always good. Too bad that's not a requirement to become a FS or BLM employee.

 

[azdave35]

No... that's a memo for the sheep who don't know the law to read and be buffaloed into believing that prospecting without a POO in a wilderness area is forbidden. Nothing could be further from the truth. Like I said. Misinformed FS personnel like to scare people away with their own interpretations of the law. Makes their job a whole lot easier if they can make you think you have to go through all kinds of red tape to exercise your rights.

Here's the law... https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/16/1133

(2) Mineral activities, surveys for mineral value Nothing in this chapter shall prevent within national forest wilderness areas any activity, including prospecting, for the purpose of gathering information about mineral or other resources, if such activity is carried on in a manner compatible with the preservation of the wilderness environment. Furthermore, in accordance with such program as the Secretary of the Interior shall develop and conduct in consultation with the Secretary of Agriculture, such areas shall be surveyed on a planned, recurring basis consistent with the concept of wilderness preservation by the United States Geological Survey and the United States Bureau of Mines to determine the mineral values, if any, that may be present; and the results of such surveys shall be made available to the public and submitted to the President and Congress.

hi az blackbird....my experience with the feds is they do what they want regardless of our rights...there was an article in the mining journal a while back about the forrest service tazed a guy just because he tried to recite the law to them

 

[azblackbird]

hi az blackbird....my experience with the feds is they do what they want regardless of our rights...there was an article in the mining journal a while back about the forrest service tazed a guy just because he tried to recite the law to them

I'm guessing that incident probably happened in CA. The BLM and FS rangers think they're above the law out there. Here in AZ in my neck of the woods, (for the most part), we have our BLM and FS guys pretty well trained on what the laws are. There's a few numbnuts here and there (usually CA, WA, or OR, transplants) that still need a little learning, but they'll catch on eventually.

 

[johnmark29020]

Even though Its just a show.I will have to agree that tv producers have a certain responsibility to not intentionally mislead the people. I am from the east coast and people there are not in a bubble about the west. Most people on the east coast have never given the west a second thought.
I think the guys did a great job . The production company with the fake props are the one to blame for the deception,
However tv shows have been lying about the ldm for years. In search of said that waltzs stumbled out of the mountain with a bag of gold, collapsing at Julia Thomas feet. They even have a reenactment to drive their point home.
This stuff has been going on for a very long time. Going all the way back to the lies told by newspaper men.
When the legend starts to die. Somone makes a discovery that get everyone stirred up again.
As long as people are following those lies they will never find anything.

 

[UncleMatt]

I'm still waiting to hear from "treasureforce" about their claims they made years ago about finding the Lost Adam's Diggings. I called them out about that years ago on T-net, and so far, not a whisper of a response. I'm honestly surprised Hutton Pulitzer doesn't own the production company that created this show...

 

[Hal Croves]

Wow! Very different story

I'll def have to do some research! Or just make Hal
Croves do the digging and if the ranger comes - just pretend I don't know him and keep
Waking!

In all seriousness - Id need to buy a metal dector first - which I plan to do shortly!

That comment was simply beyond the pale.
Expect to hear from my attorney Mr. Moore, if that indeed is your real name.

 

[Hal Croves]

Even though Its just a show.I will have to agree that tv producers have a certain responsibility to not intentionally mislead the people. I am from the east coast and people there are not in a bubble about the west. Most people on the east coast have never given the west a second thought.
I think the guys did a great job . The production company with the fake props are the one to blame for the deception,
However tv shows have been lying about the ldm for years. In search of said that waltzs stumbled out of the mountain with a bag of gold, collapsing at Julia Thomas feet. They even have a reenactment to drive their point home.
This stuff has been going on for a very long time. Going all the way back to the lies told by newspaper men.
When the legend starts to die. Somone makes a discovery that get everyone stirred up again.
As long as people are following those lies they will never find anything.

I like this post.
Will you name three early writers (newspaper men) that wrote about the Dutch Jacobs mine, also known as the Lost Dutchmans mine?

Thanks johnmark29020!

 

[copperpot]

Just got done watching "ICE COLD GOLD" its about finding gold in Greenland and mine it themselves or sell the rights to others.
But it stars Gator Schoose and Jessie Feldman a couple names you'll find in AZ and the Dutchman lore. I don't know about that big old cowboy hat in Greenland.

Wrmickel1. Ohh and Josh Feldman

Oh I meant to set my dvr for that. Missed it. Was it any good? Or is it worth prospecting up there?

 

[Azquester]

Here is the website to the exact law. Doesn't seem as easy as I thought!



Tonto National Forest - Special Places

Ryan, That's not the Law that's the Forest Services rules they made up. That's the problem here laws are passed and Bureaucrat's make up rulesto sent their own agenda's.
From what I read you can take a back hoe in there dig up a spot take a sample and put it back natural for gathering information.
It seems to me even Drilling would be an allowed prospect for gathering information.

I've never met a Forest Service employee that works for me that knew the laws anyway.

You know they all work for us not desert bunnies.

One thing they better remember is we the people write their paychecks which be can be halted at any time.

If they don't like it they can transfer back to DC and get a job harassing small children at the local zoo for spitting bubblegum in the monkey cage.

 

[Old]

Ah, touched a nerve I see. That's good in an odd sort of way. Counter points of view make one think rather than piling on. It shakes the foundation and causes one to either consider alternative view points or become more entrenched in their own beliefs. Neither is bad, in and of itself.

Answer to your question, no; never hiked the Superstitions. Have hiked in New Mexico and Colorado, but not recently.

I do have some experience with fire arms. Not always, but most times, I can just about tell you the caliber by the sound. Certainly can tell you the difference between a shot gun and rifle fire which makes a big difference in how far you can expect the projectile to travel.

Logic will imply that the deeper you go into the area the less likely you are to encounter gun fire. But; it also implies whoever is firing in a remote area isn't expecting you to be down range either. Remoteness may make it more dangerous if you do hear gun fire. They aren't expecting you and may not be as careful about what may be in range.

Yes, I did get my reference to lots of gun fire from videos. Does the fact that many such videos exist with gun fire in the background make them any less reliable because they are amateur videos? Did they all conspire to make that up?

Are you suggesting that when you do hear gun fire in the field you should not react with some caution? I think I know the answer to that. More than once I have found myself down range in such a situation and I can tell you with certainty that the whiz of a bullet passing nearby, which you hear before you hear the sound of the shot, is disconcerting to say the least.

But; this is sounding much like a discussion of how many angels can dance on a pin head. The show instilled the idea that there is a possibility of gun fire. Instilled through a dramatization. Are you suggesting encountering gun fire was a false premise? Did they gussey it up with said and implied "legends" of watchers and legions and otherwise bad hombre? Sure they did, the show is about "legends".

In 6 episodes they had roughly 4 1/4 hours to present a glimpse of various legends surrounding the mountains. If they had stuck to only actual finds rather than dramatizations the show would still be filming.

I'm long winded, so I will leave it there.

 

[Trooper733]

The ultimate form of flattery of the show will be when a South Park episode comes out with a satirical portrayal of the 5 treasure hunters played by Eric, Stan, Kyle, Kenny, and Butters, seeking the LDM. Or maybe Tweak could replace Butters and be one of the nervous guys. LoL

 

[TailGunner]

The ultimate form of flattery of the show will be when a South Park episode comes out with a satirical portrayal of the 5 treasure hunters played by Eric, Stan, Kyle, Kenny, and Butters, seeking the LDM. Or maybe Tweak could replace Butters and be one of the nervous guys. LoL

That is just too funny. I can hear Tweak screeching "Oh my God, oh my God". Cartman will be in the background taking credit for everything and saying "I told you, you wouldn't find anything. Screw you guys, I'm going home."

 

[deducer]

As far as I can understand their gobbledlygook, the TNF defines prospecting as the extraction of minerals, and other than a grab sample (which I assume is defined as nothing larger than what you can hold in your hand) such extraction is not allowed because it is defined as "mining" which is not allowed except with an approved intent or plan on a legal claim with valid existing rights in the SWA. In other words, you can't file for a new claim, so essentially the act of obtaining a "grab sample" is meaningless for the most part.

The process of obtaining a treasure trove is equally as absurd. IIRC, Ron (H.E.A.T.) discussed this process on another forum, as did Roger, and both of them described the bureaucratic process as one that is very frustrating and requiring a lot of patience, as it potentially takes years. Ron said that it took him almost 3 years to get an okay, and he had to hire a Washington, D.C. attorney to facilitate the process.

And even then, whatever you procure is liable to seizure should the state or government find it worthwhile to do so.

This is one reason I have been beating up on the show mercilessly- because it conveys the impression that it's "hunky-dory" to set off on a treasure hunt in the Superstitions without repercussions. If you find treasure, you can be certain you will not be allowed to keep it. If you sneak it out, you are committing a felony.

Certainly not a win-win situation.

 

[copperpot]

As far as I can understand their gobbledlygook, the TNF defines prospecting as the extraction of minerals, and other than a grab sample (which I assume is defined as nothing larger than what you can hold in your hand) such extraction is not allowed because it is defined as "mining" which is not allowed except with an approved intent or plan on a legal claim with valid existing rights in the SWA. In other words, you can't file for a new claim, so essentially the act of obtaining a "grab sample" is meaningless for the most part.

The process of obtaining a treasure trove is equally as absurd. IIRC, Ron (H.E.A.T.) discussed this process on another forum, as did Roger, and both of them described the bureaucratic process as one that is very frustrating and requiring a lot of patience, as it potentially takes years. Ron said that it took him almost 3 years to get an okay, and he had to hire a Washington, D.C. attorney to facilitate the process.

And even then, whatever you procure is liable to seizure should the state or government find it worthwhile to do so.

This is one reason I have been beating up on the show mercilessly- because it conveys the impression that it's "hunky-dory" to set off on a treasure hunt in the Superstitions without repercussions. If you find treasure, you can be certain you will not be allowed to keep it. If you sneak it out, you are committing a felony.

Certainly not a win-win situation.

If you found the lost dutchman mine, would you keep it secret?