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[chlsbrns]

Yes you are missing something.

New World - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

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[UncleMatt]

CLUE: What is now called Arizona was part of the area the Spanish called "New Spain"....

 

[chlsbrns]

CLUE: What is now called Arizona was part of the area the Spanish called "New Spain"....

No kidding? And the dates of new spain and new world would be? Lets not forget the Jesuits! You know their rich mines in... Is it new Spain, new world or both? I didnt see where he posted about their mining history in either or both?

The info from the history book that I posted was backed up by a history professor. He disputed the info by posting what? Something that says nothing about jesuit mines in az?

 

[Azquester]

Think about the effort that it world take to create a carved mountaintop top. The man power involved. Then think about the cost to support such an operation. Food, supplies, security, we are talking a small army of people. Not very low profile. A map on parchment would have been a much more logical way to record mines and the paths to and from them.

Will you provide the title of the book that you mentioned?

I don't disagree on the process that you are writing about only the scale which you describe. It is simply not realistic.

Yes! The Scale of this is ridiculous! That's exactly what I said!

What happened to the ten or twenty million Aztec's that disappeared after Cortez had his way with Montezuma?
How does De Re Metallica the only mining method prior to 1650 work? The Egyptian's used it, The Greeks, Romans used it. It required mass amounts of Slaves. Freemasonry played a roll as those symbols are all over this so I asked myself in the beginning how is it possible? I guess, and this is just a guess, they used the mining as a way to enhance canyons in the right places.

The only place I've seen the rubble is a giant heart they dug out on Rogers Peak in the Catalina Range only because they couldn't transport it so they threw it down right there. But I've found drill hole evidence of the Free Mason's work in three mountain ranges on a large scale. I think it was the trenching method sort of a row dot matrix done to a mountain. Small enhancements to the right places that explains the simple nature of the symbols and where they were chosen by the terrain then worked by man. Since it is based on angle of sight I guess only edges of canyons would be cut slightly leaving very little rubble that could be cleaned up like Gollum's Mine Tailings.

As for the Logistics of the operation just think about that. They camped on the mountains for protection and food, water etc.

Already there so why not practice digging with those brand new Indian Slaves you just captured? The Hacienda only owned their portion but I think in the beginning they were fueling wars with the wealth recovered from here so mass prospecting and discovery was required. What better people to send then Free masons?

 

[wrmickel1]

Winchester 3030

All the idea's work fine in this thread, Wacky, Factorial and down right Insane. Its The Legends Of The Superstitions, so it all fits.
Even deducer Sometimes, But don't let that bother ya and welcome to the Legends Of The Superstition Thread.

Wrmickel1

 

[wrmickel1]

What does new spain have to do with mining in arizona? Do you know where new spain is?

After your quote you commented on the "New World". New world and new spain are two different places.

No its not!

Wrmickel1

 

[Aric]

Aric, Your right I believe the same. But Stone houses always had Stone Corrals with them near the mines. I know this because of all the Spanish mines down here which are numerous. They would put a weigh house at the bottom of the mining district for the Kings' Fifth. This was just a foundation with the doorway off the ground like a window and they used a canvas tent top for the roof so it was portable and could be dismantled. They could take it down very easy when they were done.

Next Time I go into the Superstitions I'm only using what I know about Infinity no Dutchman Clues that way if it's a true hidden Spanish mine I should be able to find it regardless. They're not that hard to locate, the area's of Gold Mining that is, so it should be simple task to find it by air or ground.

Bob,
That's very interesting. It sounds like you have a lot of tools at your disposal. You know, you just might be the first person to use this Infinity in the search for the lost Dutchman mine. If you do find it, you might keep quiet about it. Or, you may have people crawling all over the Superstition Mountains looking for you. It's a life changing moment when it is found. Good post.

Aric

 

[Azquester]

Think about the effort that it world take to create a carved mountaintop top. The man power involved. Then think about the cost to support such an operation. Food, supplies, security, we are talking a small army of people. Not very low profile. A map on parchment would have been a much more logical way to record mines and the paths to and from them.

Will you provide the title of the book that you mentioned?

I don't disagree on the process that you are writing about only the scale which you describe. It is simply not realistic.

Hal,

I've always thought it was unrealistic myself. But when something slaps you in the face enough you finally get it. After photographing hundreds if not hundreds of thousands of scenes I started to notice the pattern of shadows. The shadows are just one level so we're not talking yet about the rest I might lose you. The shadows are a simple way of showing you the highway you need to get safe with water and food. Billboards made from mountains. A simple highway crew with the task of enhancing the range for others to follow and we're talking quite a few generations of Spanish that came here after 1519 before we had this place. Why were they so secretive about the Signs? Maybe they weren't. Maybe in their day it was a simple way of getting through hostile territory. But I have seen these same mining methods in other countries like Peru were old Pazzaro enslaved the Incan Indians, Cortez's Cousin.

As for the Book? I asked but he wouldn't divulge the name of it or which special archive he got it from. I know you or I probably wouldn't either.

Only thing I might have over that guy is he had missing pages and I filled them in the best I could for a simple layman of this art.

Best,
Bill

 

[gollum]

chlsbrns,

Like I said, you quoted from an old out of date history book, and I quoted the King of Spain as dictated in his edict. I would believe a first hand source rather than what some historian that came along 200 years later THOUGHT.

You have neither the intelligence to know when you are wrong, nor the intellectual honesty to admit it. You have added absolutely nothing of value to any discussion you have barged into. All you do is gainsay others. Maybe you should let the grownups speak amongst themselves from now on.

Done with you TROLL.

Mike

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Bob,
I can't stress this enough when I say where I'm from, the stone house IS THE KEY to locating the mine. I have heard and been told several times by the old timers that the mine was inside the stone house. I would have to say Waltz used the tailings to build the stone house. Waltz didn't put a roof on the house. The stone house doe's not stand anymore.
I think all Waltz was trying to do was to hide the vertical shaft.
I was also told the from the bottom of the mine to the surface was 10 feet. Waltz was 6 feet tall, he could have stood at the bottom of the mine and built a ledge starting at 4 feet from the bottom for the logs he installed and enlarged the entrance all at the same time.
So, the way it looks to me is this way, 4 feet from the bottom of the mine you have checker board pattern of logs, then 2 feet from the surface you have caliche & rock.


Aric

I find the concept, that a rational (or any) person would supposedly spend all that effort hiding a super rich gold vein rather than using that effort to mine it, ABSURD. Don't get me started on my assessment of the intelligence of any who believe that.

 

[johnmark29020]

Hal,

I've always thought it was unrealistic myself. But when something slaps you in the face enough you finally get it. After photographing hundreds if not hundreds of thousands of scenes I started to notice the pattern of shadows. The shadows are just one level so we're not talking yet about the rest I might lose you. The shadows are a simple way of showing you the highway you need to get safe with water and food. Billboards made from mountains. A simple highway crew with the task of enhancing the range for others to follow and we're talking quite a few generations of Spanish that came here after 1519 before we had this place. Why were they so secretive about the Signs? Maybe they weren't. Maybe in their day it was a simple way of getting through hostile territory. But I have seen these same mining methods in other countries like Peru were old Pazzaro enslaved the Incan Indians, Cortez's Cousin.

As for the Book? I asked but he wouldn't divulge the name of it or which special archive he got it from. I know you or I probably wouldn't either.

Only thing I might have over that guy is he had missing pages and I filled them in the best I could for a simple layman of this art.

Best,
Bill

I understand a little about the shadows.
The first time out I set up camp and was amazed at how many of the paper maps from apache junction were visable,except the coyote. On one of the maps the coyote stands beside the mountain. I kept studing the ridge line. I thought I wasn't in the right spot. Until aboout 4.30 the sun was low in the sky. The shadows had changed,and there the coyote was standing. Baying at the sky. It was a rock I had stared at all day. When my wife returned from playing bear in the wood.
She pointed out the paper maps were harder to make out. The next morning we followed the hand full of the clues we had left. We took dozens of pics and most came out so blurry. In a couple of the pics the rocks look like they have a ora. I was told that meant either heavy magnetized area, or heavy in ore such as cooper, gold ,or silver. I would not not know. I dont hold the degrees many here do. Anyway that was my first experience with the shadows in the sups.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

chlsbrns,

Like I said, you quoted from an old out of date history book, and I quoted the King of Spain as dictated in his edict. I would believe a first hand source rather than what some historian that came along 200 years later THOUGHT.

You have neither the intelligence to know when you are wrong, nor the intellectual honesty to admit it. You have added absolutely nothing of value to any discussion you have barged into. All you do is gainsay others. Maybe you should let the grownups speak amongst themselves from now on.

Done with you TROLL.

Mike

C'mon Mike. Name calling?

 

[Azquester]

I'll be gone tomorrow digging some gold so I'll see this thread later.

Bill

 

[johnmark29020]

I find the concept, that a rational (or any) person would supposedly spend all that effort hiding a super rich gold vein rather than using that effort to mine it, ABSURD. Don't get me started on my assessment of the intelligence of any who believe that.

There is one reason that would make sense. Waltz claimed one would work the mine while the other stood guard. He also said the mine was at risk of indian attack.
Implying more than most places . So if there was a weiser and he got killed because waltzs was gone. Then waltz could have grabbed what he could carry.
Covered up the rest,and got out of dodge.
No weiser to help him,no way to stay safe.
Then you add in the many tales of people following him. He didnt have anyone he could trust.
1800s version of forced retirement.
Im not claim anything here as fact. Just a plausible reason. A guess.

 

[wrmickel1]

C'mon Mike. Name calling?

A troll is a cave dwelling creature in modern folklore that can be a giant or a dwarf but is always depicted as very ugly so that fits in to the legends of the Superstition.

Sundays at nine, Wrmickel1

 

[gollum]

C'mon Mike. Name calling?

CN,

Although you do your share of gainsaying, over the time I have watched you post, you add to the conversation. You make salient points. Whether I agree with them or not, that's not what matters. When a troll acts like a troll, one can only call them what they are. CHLSBRNS has added nothing except arguments to the conversations he has barged into. When proven wrong, he tries to ignore that and use some minutiae to move the conversation away from his ineptitude. When someone doesn't add anything to a discussion. They can't admit when they are wrong (or refuse to). Only argue with people, one can only call that a TROLL!

He stated unequivocally that "IT'S A FACT!" that Jacob Waltz married a Hopi Woman and he knows his great grandchild. I find official documented proof that Waltz was single till his death and that the person that claims to be an offshoot of his has told others that Waltz didn't get his gold from any mine. That he got his gold by trading it with the people that lived underground in tunnels underneath the Supers. He then got embarrassed and claimed that wasn't the guy. Yeah, there are a ton of people claiming to be descended from Jacob Waltz and a Hopi woman. HAHAHA

He stated unequivocally that New Spain was not the New World. I provide links to show where he is wrong and he tries to divert attention away from his ignorance to some minutiae. Sad. A troll is a troll is a troll.

I don't use that term very often. But in this case, "If the shoe fits......................."

Mike

 

[Aric]

CN,

Although you do your share of gainsaying, over the time I have watched you post, you add to the conversation. You make salient points. Whether I agree with them or not, that's not what matters. When a troll acts like a troll, one can only call them what they are. CHLSBRNS has added nothing except arguments to the conversations he has barged into. When proven wrong, he tries to ignore that and use some minutiae to move the conversation away from his ineptitude. When someone doesn't add anything to a discussion. They can't admit when they are wrong (or refuse to). Only argue with people, one can only call that a TROLL!

He stated unequivocally that "IT'S A FACT!" that Jacob Waltz married a Hopi Woman and he knows his great grandchild. I find official documented proof that Waltz was single till his death and that the person that claims to be an offshoot of his has told others that Waltz didn't get his gold from any mine. That he got his gold by trading it with the people that lived underground in tunnels underneath the Supers. He then got embarrassed and claimed that wasn't the guy. Yeah, there are a ton of people claiming to be descended from Jacob Waltz and a Hopi woman. HAHAHA

He stated unequivocally that New Spain was not the New World. I provide links to show where he is wrong and he tries to divert attention away from his ignorance to some minutiae. Sad. A troll is a troll is a troll.

I don't use that term very often. But in this case, "If the shoe fits......................."

Mike

Mike,
Waltz had a sister that lived I believe (not sure though) in the state of Missouri at the time Waltz was in Arizona. Waltz did not father any children that have ever heard of.

Aric

 

[gollum]

Mike,
Waltz had a sister that lived I believe (not sure though) in the state of Missouri at the time Waltz was in Arizona. Waltz did not father any children that have ever heard of.

Aric

Aric,

I know beyond a doubt that Jacob Waltz did not have a wife or child. In the several years he was friends with Julia Thomas, he never spoke about them. In the eight months of 1891 that he lay bedridden in Julia Thomas' Place, he never mentioned to her about any wife or child. In the time he told his life story to Dick Holmes and Frank Alkire on his deathbed, he never mentioned to them anything about a wife or child. A search of census records regarding Jacob Waltz of Phoenix results in him being single in the local 1864 census and the Federal 1870 Census, and the Federal 1880 Census. No mention of wife nor child. Thats all I need to know.

 

[chlsbrns]

chlsbrns,

Like I said, you quoted from an old out of date history book, and I quoted the King of Spain as dictated in his edict. I would believe a first hand source rather than what some historian that came along 200 years later THOUGHT.

You have neither the intelligence to know when you are wrong, nor the intellectual honesty to admit it. You have added absolutely nothing of value to any discussion you have barged into. All you do is gainsay others. Maybe you should let the grownups speak amongst themselves from now on.

Done with you TROLL.

Mike

What you posted was from the mining laws. Making laws that people are not allowed to mine somehow in your mind means there are a lot of jesuit mines in az? I also have the sense to look at the source of your info! Lol! Did you notice or did you intentionally leave out that the chapter where you quoted from is about quicksilver? Hahaha! So lame! I also searched tje publication for the word jesuit. Results = 0?

https://books.google.com/books?id=y...pano+Mexicanas+No+586]&output=html_text#c_top

An old out of date history book? Hahaha! You cant comprehend the absurdity of that statement?

 

[ibjeepn]

IGNORE !