NEED HELP WITH PHOTO ID OF POSSIBLE FAMOUS PERSON

[Bigcypresshunter]

This is all I see. I wish we could at least get this word. It appears to be a logo and it could help us with a date range.

Maybe searching companies that made art paper starting with an R.

RIW?

Have you determined it to be a water painting?

 

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[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Big Cy ~

The photo has a mat finish, but I'm pretty sure it's not water based paint. Too thick and heavy. Plus, I'm almost embarressed to suggest the following, but since we're taking long shots here, I suppose it couldn't hurt. As soon as I saw your photo painting of the RIV, I immediately thought of "RIVERS"

So try this name ... [ But more specifically the father, Joseph Edward Rivers ]

Andrews Rivers, photographer, former business owner, author.

SOUTH BERWICK, Maine - Andrew L. Rivers, 81, of 36 Wadleigh Lane died Monday Dec. 31, 2001, at his home. Born in Coaticook, Quebec, Canada, on April 4, 1920, the son of Joseph Edward and Albertine (Moreau) Lariviere. The family moved to Dover, N.H. in 1930, where his father, a professional photographer, established a studio, and it was there that young Andrew’s photography career began.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

P.S. ~

Please bare in mind that the hand coloring could have been done long after the photo was taken, which might explain the sloppiness around the edges. It also appears to have been framed at some point.

SBB

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

P.S. ~

Please bare in mind that the hand coloring could have been done long after the photo was taken, which might explain the sloppiness around the edges. It also appears to have been framed at some point.

SBB

Do you think it was painted over a photo? It looks like a water painting as opposed to oil. Its been a very long time since I painted as a child so I could be very wrong.. You say thick, is it an oil painting? Im here to learn. Why do you think it was painted over a photo? I was wondering why you kept referring to it as a photo. :P I guess I should have read it more carefully.



I would think there would be a limited amount of photographic paper brands but maybe its the studio name. If it is a painted photo, then we already have an approx date.

Yes, I see the frame must have been nice because someone took it.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

It is definitely a hand colored photograph. And I am about 99% certain it is the albumen paper/print I referred to. If you haven't done so already, read the wiki article I posted a link to. The albumen paper on my particular photo is extremely thin and glued to a piece of cardboard. The cardboard itself is extremely brittle with age. I was even able to lift up one corner of the albumen paper and examine it with a powerful magnifying glass. The back side of the paper revealed that it is made of a fiberous material, just as described in the albumen article. Plus everything else points to the late 1800s, including clothes style as Breezie pointed out, and various other details. Althought you cannot see the photograph part with the naked eye, under a magnifying glass portions of it are visible. The hand coloring is quite remarkable, and the brushed detail of the mustache is especially interesting. Other portions appear to have been done with sponges or something similar.

A couple of more things I have been wondering about is why it has the penciled message on the top? (For filing?). And why does it have a penciled name on the back? I'm thinking the name on the back may be the most important clue of all. I believe it says ... Ksoenott. I researched this name but found nothing with this exact spelling. The s after the K seems wrong.

SBB

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Ksoenott could be our best clue but so far a dead end.

Im searching back for your wiki link.

Here is what looks like a great book on painted photographs. http://www.amazon.com/Painted-Photograph-1839-1914-Techniques-Aspirations/dp/0271015071

When photography was introduced in 1839, it was the sensation of its time, but soon its admirers were complaining that the images were not produced in realistic colors and tended to fade eventually. Photographers, anxious to please their customers, began painting over their black-and-white creations with avariety of materials, including watercolors, oils, chalk, and even crayon. Despite the expected criticism from the artistic sectionsof society, the colored images enjoyed immense popularity.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Here's a link to a website I am sure you will enjoy. It shows the worlds first photograph (circa 1826) along with various other early photos.

Link: http://www.neatorama.com/2006/08/29/the-wonderful-world-of-early-photography/

And since part of this involves a certain element of speculation, let's "pretend" for a moment that the photo in question is that of a young Theodore Roosevelt. Here is an example of an early cabinet photo of Teddy that only 1,000 of which were ever produced. And here is the text associated with the auction results.

TEDDY ROOSEVELT. LARGE CABINET PHOTO.

Sold For $1,600

FROM THE STOWE FAMILY ESTATE. EARLY 7" X10" CABINET PHOTO OF A YOUNG THEODORE ROOSEVELT IN BUCKSKINS ARMED WITH A RIFLE AND KNIFE IN HIS BELT. FABULOUS PHOTOGRAPH.

~ * ~

So if the photo in question did happened to be that of our heroic Rough Rider, this could illustrate what it might sell for at auction. Of course, we are just pretending here. Bummer! But if nothing else, this may inspire us to look a little closer at those boxes and racks of old photos that can often be found in antique shops, and ones which I normally ignore. But not anymore!

SBB

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I didnt realize it was a photo. I thought it was an original painting thus making it likely someone rich or famous.

I dont know what it would cost for a studio portrait but it still could be someone famous. I would imagine the studio name is imprinted on the paper somewhere and this may be another direction to research.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

It looks as if a frame was tacked over the portrait to catch the paint brush overstrokes.
Can you remove the paper frame?

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

I considered removing the photo from the cardboard backing, but decided against it when I discovered it would destroy it in the process. I have examined every inch of it with a magnifying glass and could not see a studio mark on it anywhere. Of course it could be concealed under the paint, but that is something we will never know unless an expert of some kind has a means of xraying it, or some other procedure I am not aware of. One of these days I may have it examined by a local photo expert, but really don't want to get too financially involved with it just yet, especially if it turns out to be nothing more than a John Doe. The way things stand now, if someone were to offer me $50.00 for it, I would put it in the mail tomorrow, post paid!

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[SODABOTTLEBOB]

For someone who said they were on the wane (fading into the sunset) I continue to contradict myself by constantly coming back for more. In any event, below is link to a good website for those of you who would like to do some additional research on famous photographers. It is the best and most complete list I have come across thus far. Just click in the box where it says "Famous Photographers," and from there scroll down the list that appears and then click on "Famous Photographers" again. I looked through it briefly, but did not see a name that jumped out at me or sounded familiar. Maybe you will have better luck than I did. I'd say the key names/references to look for are ...

1. Laine
2. Ksoenott / Kosenott
3. Mal

... or anything else that might catch your eye. Even if the person in the photo isn't someone famous, maybe the photographer is. Plus, the site may serve as a good reference for future searches related to photographers and photography. Please let us know if you find anything of interest.

Thanks.

SBB

Link: http://communitydisc.westside66.org/HTML/colette/Photography/photo.htm

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

All I can add is that Kosenott is also a Scandanavian name.



I notice on your last photo posted, the studio/photographers name is imprinted on the bottom left.
Isnt this the same place as our RIV mystery imprint? (The fake grass and backdrop looks funny )

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Maybe it's just sloppy handwriting.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

....I have tried the old dash trick on find a word....like in cross word puzzles and came up with nothing.

Can you explain the old dash trick?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

....I have tried the old dash trick on find a word....like in cross word puzzles and came up with nothing.

Could you explain the old dash trick?

 

[Tigger]

I've read a lot of sloppy handwriting doing census research, but this is tricky because of the gaps and so few words to go on. Here's some more ideas:

Mal could be Mae, as in this is Mae's 6th attempt at painting
#6 same as
I think the letter after the K is an r
Kroe, then n or s or ss, o or u, tt

Have you called the dealer in San Diego yet to see if he knows anything more about it? (Purchased from the Kroenutt family, for instance...) They usually remember where they got things from.

Also, the downtown San Diego library has a good genealogy/history room, with LOTS of old city directories. You could try looking for Kroe.... in those
Tigger

 

[Goldwind]

In reference to "Kroenott"...Kroenert is a company in Germany which makes ....print and film media since 1903...kroenertgroup.com

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Good suggestions Tigger.

I dont want to discourage you Bob but someone appears to have believed that the frame was worth more than the picture and removed it. I used to salvage frames myself from worthless paintings or prints. There may be another possibility however. Since this was possibly the 6th attempt, same as...etc.; could it be possible that it was never framed? Do I see frame marks?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

In reference to "Kroenott"...Kroenert is a company in Germany which makes ....print and film media since 1903...kroenertgroup.com

Could it also say Kroenert on the bottom? We need to find the old logo.

We just dont have enough to work with and Im reaching.


...but with such a large photograph, it must have a studio mark.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

It has a look and feel to it suggesting that it was once framed. Perhaps "before" the hand coloring was done. I'm not to bummed, because tigger and goldwind have just given us about 15 more minutes of fame with ...

... with, with - wait a minute! Maybe it's not Mal. Maybe it's Max! - as in ...

Maschinenfabrik Max Kroenert has a tradition of over 100 years at its
premises in Altona. Established in1903 in Lohmühlenstrasse, the firm moved
to its current premises in Schützenstrasse as early as 1905 because of a lack
of space.