My beliefs on dowsing

[Tom_in_CA]

Hey Af & Jerry, whoa now .... slow down now bro. There's no harm done by Dell. Sure, maybe he's a firm believer. That's fine. And maybe he sells something related, so therefore, he's more dedicated. That's fine. I mean, if someone came and started 'dissing my business (I'm in the street sweeper business), I would take it a little personal too.

So let's all stop this talk of "vested commercial interest". It is not the point. I'll side with Dell on this one. He's adding important knowledge to the topic, interjecting his views, which is exactly what a forum is about. For that I commend Dell. I don't care what he does for a business, and if, perhaps it makes him a bit more passionate on the subject. All the better!

What it really boils down to, is the pro's and con's of dowsing alone, none of the who-works-where stuff.

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

Dell, do you mean meta-physics as ..... in supernatural? Ie.: not scientifically based or provable, nor naturally occuring? As in spiritual? I'm a little confused. My dictionary's definition of metaphysics is: "The branch of philosphy dealing with the nature of existence and knowledge".

So you're into philosophy?

 

[aarthrj3811]

You must be on the wrong forum. This is Not a science forum.If all you can do is inject your knowledge of what you and Science doesn't know about mental dowsing, or meta-physics, we all agree with you. There is nothing to debate, except for the fact that you infer that Dowsers aren't doing what they say they are doing and we are copmelled to argue in our defense. What do you believe you are accompolishing by introducing electronic apparatus links to a Dowsing forum that prohibits the discussion? Are you trying to get us all deleted? Dell

You got it Dell…They want this forum deleted…It has happened to often in the past. They keep trying to post about banned subjects. I for one don’t want the information contained in these post to be deleted. We know the difference between the tools and so do most of them. For the new people here ….If you want to learn about these banned subjects you will have to go some place else….Art

 

[ClonedSIM]

Hey Af & Jerry, whoa now .... slow down now bro. There's no harm done by Dell. Sure, maybe he's a firm believer. That's fine. And maybe he sells something related, so therefore, he's more dedicated. That's fine. I mean, if someone came and started 'dissing my business (I'm in the street sweeper business), I would take it a little personal too.

So let's all stop this talk of "vested commercial interest". It is not the point. I'll side with Dell on this one. He's adding important knowledge to the topic, interjecting his views, which is exactly what a forum is about. For that I commend Dell. I don't care what he does for a business, and if, perhaps it makes him a bit more passionate on the subject. All the better!

What it really boils down to, is the pro's and con's of dowsing alone, none of the who-works-where stuff.

Nobody's dissing his business, Tom. We just think it odd that he says his business has nothing to do with his presence here, and he emphatically states that he knows linking to advertising is against T'Net rules, yet the site selling his wares is so easily accessible from this page. But, I will drop the whole subject if Dell can answer one question with his extensive knowledge and commitment to dowsing.

How does it work, Dell. How does dowsing work? How does a tiny immeasurable electrical signal travel from a coin in the ground to a rod whatever distance away and make it point toward said treasure? (I forget; is this your theory or do you believe something else?)

 

[aarthrj3811]

How does it work, Dell. How does dowsing work? How does a tiny immeasurable electrical signal travel from a coin in the ground to a rod whatever distance away and make it point toward said treasure? (I forget; is this your theory or do you believe something else?)

Hey af…Since I’m the person that seems to use these natural signal lines more than other Dowsers I will answer you. I don’t know what kind of signals these are. I don’t know how they or the reason they respond to my body. I don’t know if they respond or use my brain. I don’t know if they can be measured or not. The only thing I know for sure is that they lead me to a lot of objects that I am looking for. How could that possible happen. So why should I believe anyone one that tells me it does not work when I have proved that it does to myself thousands of times.

This statement is posted with my approval and is my exact feelings….Art

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Art, you don't know why it works? That is an honest statement. Thanx for not throwing out hypothesis, that others would end up studying scientifically, and showing they don't hold up. To say "I don't know" is much more honest. Thanx.

Do you also allow, in your possibilities spectrum, that it might be supernatural? Or do you lean towards the "it's totally scientifically explainable, yet we don't understand it at this present time" camp?

 

[ClonedSIM]

How does it work, Dell. How does dowsing work? How does a tiny immeasurable electrical signal travel from a coin in the ground to a rod whatever distance away and make it point toward said treasure? (I forget; is this your theory or do you believe something else?)

Hey af…Since I’m the person that seems to use these natural signal lines more than other Dowsers I will answer you. I don’t know what kind of signals these are. I don’t know how they or the reason they respond to my body. I don’t know if they respond or use my brain. I don’t know if they can be measured or not. The only thing I know for sure is that they lead me to a lot of objects that I am looking for. How could that possible happen. So why should I believe anyone one that tells me it does not work when I have proved that it does to myself thousands of times.

This statement is posted with my approval and is my exact feelings….Art

I agree with Tom, this is a good and honest answer. I wonder what Dell has to say on the subject?

 

[Miner49er]

I have posted this before, and it somewhat follows Tom's line of reasoning. (SOMEWHAT)

Dowsing is a way of being conscious of sensory inputs which are not directly connected to the instinctive brain functions. For example man's sensitivity to magnetism. The organ we assume to be responsible for this sensitivity is the pineal gland . We know that the pineal is contained within the skull, but the pineal lies outside the brain, and has no direct contact with the brain nor does it have direct nerve connections. So the pineal must communicate with the lower brain through subconscious urges, and not rational thought. In the case of dowsing, clearly the brain (not mind) is, in some way, able to alter muscle tension in the shoulders and arms, by way of the ideomotor effect, causing the crossing of angle rods, and the swinging or rotation of the pendulum. Yet the same channels must also be used by other subconscious stimuli for them to be felt. But, although the manner of bringing the raw impulse through to conscious perception may be the same, this does not mean that the origins are the same.
Becker and Marino , who state that not all information gathered by the usual senses is 'processed at the conscious level, and there is no physiological principle that would preclude the subliminal detection of EMFs [electromagnetic fields] by the nervous system.'
No one knows how dowsing works, they only know it does. There are two popular theories to explain dowsing:

The first suggests that dowsing works as a result of natural phenomena. Buried metal, minerals and underground water causes either a magnetic field or a disturbance in the earth’s own magnetic field. It is thought that the dowsing rod is a tool for showing the reaction of the magnetic field in the ground to the natural magnetic field of the body. This theory was investigated scientifically in Logan, Utah, USA, around 30 years ago.

The Second theory is that dowsing works through the arts of the paranormal; an explanation used to account for the ability of some dowsers to find objects which are thought not to produce or influence magnetic fields. As far as field dowsing is concerned, the paranormal theory is probably in error since it has been shown that virtually everything, be it animal, vegetable or mineral, reacts to magnetic fields.
. Mankind does not know everything. Much science fact today was the science fiction and mysticism of the past and dowsing has undoubtedly survived from primitive times when the ability to find water, for instance, could have meant the difference between life and death.

 

[Keppy]

All i can tell you i got these cheap ones this year and they work for me but they do tell me that some people can not make them work..The first time i picked them up they led me to a dime and never failed me once some times it is junk they lead me to but they always lead me to something............

My experience has been different, though I was doing something very similar. I've used some bent wires too. They always seem to lead me to something, and a lot of times it was a coin. I would dowse with them, and then get out my metal detector and sure enough, within a few feet of where they had crossed, sometimes within a 4 foot circle and sometimes within an 8 foot circle, I would find a coin.

However, being skeptical of dowsing, I also wanted to know if it was the dowsing rods that were pulling me to these targets, or if it was my natural intuition. So, I began testing my theory, by just thinking of the next logical place where I might find a coin. I would then walk to the spot (without dowsing), get out my metal detector, and sure enough, within a few feet of where I thought would be a likely spot, sometimes within a 4 foot circle and sometimes within an 8 foot circle, I would find a coin.

I continued testing like this, many times. Sometimes using the dowsing rods, and sometimes just guessing where the next logical spot might be. What I discovered was I could find just as many coins by guessing where to look (sometimes more), as I could by dowsing the next spot.

By my own experience, I concluded that using natural intuition and logic, I could just as easily determine likely spots as with dowsing. My experiences have been proven to be accurate by many others who have done the same kind of testing.

Of course, if one NEVER bothers to look at both methods, but becomes enamored by the very compelling and confounding ideomotor response that makes the dowsing rods move, then they will never become aware of the truth.

Well thanks for the info i will try that out and see what happens....Jim

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I dunno what you mean by random chance. If you can swing over a target, and it goes "beep", it will do the same "beep" for anyone and everyone who swings over it, again and again, no matter what day of the week it is, and no matter who it is swinging the detector. That's not random.

If you mean by "random" the success of something valuable, then yeah, detecting is random. Some days I get a pulltab, the next day maybe a gold coin. But for each target, it's a non-random repeatable beep.

 

[aarthrj3811]

Maybe this will help you. My project right now is looking for 40 pounds of gold ore that was borrowed from a mining company in the early 1900. There has been some gold taken out of this area but not a lot. There should be 2 ½ to 3 ounces of gold in the ore.

My research has narrowed the area down to a 10 mile area. I have this all on a goggle earth photo. I take my rods and walk North-South on one of the 1 mile grids I have put on the photo. At that corner I walk East-West for 1 mile. I then walk from that point back to where I stated. I have covered that square. When the rods cross I follow them to the target. I don’t know what part of the grid they will lead me to so the visual clues are not there. No I have not found it yet but I hope to cover another mile or 2 before it snows again. ….Art

 

[gellin]

I would be accurate in saying my metal detector finds, which have been many, are the result of random chance, and that my Dowsing finds have been specific.

Anybody else besides me have random chance finds with their Metal detectors ? Dell

Every find I make with my metal detector is by random chance. I move my coil over an area and "bing" I have a find. If I had already known it was there I wouldn't need the detector.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI Tom Your quote--->

"All humans have biases"
~~~~~~~~~

How could one person BE so wrong, "I am Perfect" , I am a living Saint (don't ask my wife since she is prejudiced and so her testimony doesn't count)==========================================================

Hi Jerry: your quote--->

"since there are no different types of dowsing"
~~~~~~~~~

I agree 100% Jerry.,
==========================================================

DELL: you quoted -->

"What to heck does Science and physics know for fact about metaphysics?"
~~~~~~~~~

Perhaps not very much right now, but tomorrow quite a bit more. In fact in some remote obscure lab someone may just have pulled the rabbit out of the hat.
==========================================================
ART, your quote:--->

"How does it work, Dell. How does dowsing work? How does a tiny immeasurable electrical signal travel from a coin in the ground to a rod whatever distance away and make it point toward said treasure? "
~~~~~~~~~~

First, if a signal of any kind exists, it can be measured, perhaps not by our existing technology / instruments. Therein lies one of the problems with dowsing, we do NOT have the instruments or technique to measure it yet.

I believe that you know that the earth is nothing but a mass of crisscrossing fields of many types, constantly modifying each other. Some of these modulators are very subtle, such is the case with a coin or what ever. If the dowser can become sensitive or receptive to this weak modulator/modulated signal this will trigger his ideo response into a dowsing response. It is just that simple

As a kiddie I built many crystal radios. With some crude regenerative circuits, I could occasionally receive signals from around the world. The signal strength was almost infinitesimal. In some, just the presence of a human walking near the tuning circuits would detune it ? We are talking about an extremely small field, prob one that still cannot be measured by conventional instrumentation. A complex one of capacitance and inductance plus a certain amount of natural human fields. Presently the only way to even begin to measure this is by bio indicators.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hello my Friend Tom: I appol. for not answering your question before, but I only caught it tonight.. You quoted --->

" am sure that you will quickly realize the flaw in that testing procedure" Real de Tayopa, do tell: what is the flaw? I'm lost"
~~~~~~~~~

This could apply through simple chance and an educated guess in a park, beach or play ground, etc., but I doubt that guessing would serve in the open range of the west where no towns, villages, or other settlements had been.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p's' Are you sure that that you aren't indulgng in a bit of unsuspected dowsing?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Real de Tayopa: You say: "it can be measured, perhaps not by our existing technology / instruments" Thankyou for this admission that this is not current science. To even say that it is not measureable by current known science, is a real eye-opener. That makes every single dowser's attempts to say it's scientific (signals, auras, energies, etc.. etc... etc...) to be merely theory. That's FINE guys. But don't say it's a fact. When science can validate the claim (with the future science you longingly wait for), THEN it becomes a fact.

Successes in the field doesn't mean it, therefore, must have scientific reasoning. Those successes may come from supernatural sources, not science. And since many of you have allowed for the spiritual/supernatural, as being the force that moves the rods, and since you now admit that the scientific proof isn't currently here (therefore a theory), that would seem to leave only the supernatural. I'm fine with that.

I don't even need outside reasoning for these conclusions. I can just cull it from all your own admissions. Good thing dowsers admit it's not scientifically currently proovable. What better admission could a skeptic ask for?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Doesn't mental dowsing hone in on the signals? Dell, you are not making sense, I am talking about the signals that YOU bring up. You do mental dowsing, right? Mental dowsing is what this forum is about, right? Then aren't those signals YOU brought, to do with mental dowsing? Hello? What's going on here?

 

[aarthrj3811]

Gee Tom ...You seem to have a theory you are talking about. Our theory is different than yours as we know from experence...Art

Theory
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The word theory has a number of distinct meanings in different fields of knowledge, depending on their methodologies and the context of discussion.
In common usage, people often use the word theory to signify a conjecture, an opinion, or a speculation. In this usage, a theory is not necessarily based on facts; in other words, it is not required to be consistent with true descriptions of reality. This usage of theory leads to the common but misguided statement "It's not a fact, it's only a theory." True descriptions of reality are more reflectively understood as statements which would be true independently of what people think about them. In this usage, the word is synonymous with hypothesis.
In science, a theory is a mathematical or logical explanation, or a testable model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through empirical observation. It follows from this that for scientists "theory" and "fact" do not necessarily stand in opposition. For example, it is a fact that an apple dropped on earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet, and the theories commonly used to describe and explain this behaviour are Newton's theory of universal gravitation (see also gravitation), and general relativity.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

good point Art. You got me ("theory" of gravity, etc...) Ok then, so they needn't be necessarily non-scientific, as you point out. Score one for you

But I find this interesting in your Wikipedia quote: " .... testable model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind ..." So, like in the example of gravity and the apple: It is repeatable, no? I can drop the apple 100 times, and it will always fall to the ground, no? No matter who drops it, right? So the "theories" wikepedia is talking about, is quite a stretch from dowsing, wouldn't you admit? Or can you put dowsing in a test environment to show these repeatable results? Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. So in that sense, if isn't a testable theory, as is gravity, and as is the wikipedia quoted "theory" types they are talking about.

Yes, there is merit to saying "well it can't be put through controlled environment testing, because sun-spots can come up any second of the day, therefore, it can stop working w/o any apparent outside influences" and "not every one can do it (based on natural abilities, like, in the example of heightened senses of smell) therefore to hand the rod to the next guy (much like handing the apple to the next guy to see if it drops for him too), won't work, because he doesn't have the "gift". But you tell me: How then CAN it be tested? If controlled environments to bring about repeated test results are an impossibility, then how then, can it be tested for repeatability? And if it can't be tested for repeatability, how then can you avail yourself of the wikipedia defintion?

And a "test" is not random successes you, or another dowswer, may have had. It has to be shown to work, under a controlled repeatable testing. To point to random successes, can be written off to random chance, hunches, etc.... I'm not saying they WERE random chances, hunches, etc... I'm just saying that the scientific community does not consider random past events, to be repeatable consistent events. They are two different beasts.

 

[aarthrj3811]

Yes, there is merit to saying "well it can't be put through controlled environment testing, because sun-spots can come up any second of the day, therefore, it can stop working w/o any apparent outside influences" and "not every one can do it (based on natural abilities, like, in the example of heightened senses of smell) therefore to hand the rod to the next guy (much like handing the apple to the next guy to see if it drops for him too), won't work, because he doesn't have the "gift". But you tell me then, how can it be tested? If controlled environments to bring about repeated test results are an impossibility, then how then, can it be tested for repeatability? And if it can't be tested for repeatability, how then can you avail yourself of the wikipedia defintion?

I test my theory every time I use my rods. For me Sun-spots help. I have had a time when dowsing would not work for me. I went to work and solved the problem that had occurred. Can you give me “one reason” why I should do any of these so called Scientific Test when I know what I can do and I have witnessed the way skeptics are willing to cheat….Art

 

[Miner49er]

Tom, you keep bringing up the concept that dowsing is supernatural or spiritual, and nothing could be farther from the truth.There are no“fields”, no signals radiating from targets. No ions floating around in the air that emanate from buried or lost objects. Dowsing is just a method of physically obtaining information that is not readily evident at this time or place.
The information that dowsers seek is freely obtainable to anyone who can access the superconscious mind. (notice that I did not say brain) An explanation may be in order here.
Consciousness is being aware of and interacting with stimuli within self’s own dimension. This self is conscious of what can be perceived by the five physical senses.
Superconsciousness is a higher order of consciousness of a higher dimension in which the inhabitants are aware of stimuli of their own dimension as well as lower dimensions. The superconscious is multidimensional. Self can become conscious of the superconscious thru meditation, or dowsing.
Society and science seek to prove that the only reality that exists is the one that we perceive with our five physical senses, and urges us to believe that our 3D perceptions of reality is the only reality.
Now if you are referring to dowsing as being spiritual in the regard that we are tapping into our Spiritual Self, I will agree. But we are only aware of our Spiritual Self when we have expanded our consciousness to encompass the higher dimensions.
As an example of dowsing for information, I will relate an incident that occurred in the late 1980’s. The state of Florida had just implemented the lottery for the first time. I thought that it would be interesting to dowse the lottery in some manner. I knew that it would be impossible to dowse the future lotto numbers because you cannot dowse the future. It would have to be something that had already occurred in order to be dowsed. I decided on the “scratch-offs” as a way of dowsing the lottery. I knew that each ticket had a number in sequence, so my task was to seek an amount (I picked $50) that was ALREADY printed on a numbered ticket. Each day, I would dowse to see if there was a $50 winner that was about to be sold at a particular location that I would use. I started on a Wednesday. I got no positive information until Saturday. My dowsing indicated that this day a $50 winning ticket was about to be sold. Since I was not at the location of the tickets, I asked one of my co-workers to check the numbers of the first ticket that was left on the roll. After I got the number, I started to dowse back until I got to the winning $50 ticket. To be sure of having the winner, I picked ten numbers with the winner in the middle. I called my co-worker and told him the sequence of the ten numbers that we wanted. He told the seller to tear off ten numbers beginning with the first number in the sequence that I had dowsed. Later in the day, my co-worker called and said that the numbers had indeed come up, and that he had the tickets. Long story short. The winning $50 ticket was in the middle of the ten that we had bought. There were many, many witnesses who saw the winning ticket, and most were present when my co-worker bought them. I later asked the owner of the place how many winning $50 tickets had been sold in his place since the lottery began. He said ours was the only one out of five thousand sold up until that time.
No “fields”,no signal lines, just plain old information dowsing, with the results coming from the superconsciousness.