Misc data and adventures of a Tayopa treasure hunter

[Oroblanco]

Its getting to were you cant do anything any more without some one watching .he is proud to donate,See how his ears are back,thats good and fresh.mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.cant get any better than that,anyone have a bucket.np

Not to be nitpicking but that is a she, not a he. It only really makes a difference in where you put your bucket.

 

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[Not Peralta]

Oro, Amigo, your right.np

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

NP, do you need glasses? He

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Marius, Oro, that map definately located Tayopa and Naranjal in Durango of that period, today they would be in Chihuahua. - just insde the border of Chihuahua. It explains why they have never located either. Looking in the present borders of Durango. Much appears to have been added with each telling of the story

So my Naranjal fits in all aspects Roy. Owned by a Sapaniard, in a deep barranca, orange colored Gold, in production during the Juarez rebellion, with an orange planting, but no hacienda today ?

Gracias

 

[Oroblanco]

Marius, Oro, that map definately located Tayopa and Naranjal in Durango of that period, today they would be in Chihuahua. - just insde the border of Chihuahua. It explains why they have never located either. Looking in the present borders of Durango. Much appears to have been added with each telling of the story

So my Naranjal fits in all aspects Roy. Owned by a Sapaniard, in a deep barranca, orange colored Gold, in production during the Juarez rebellion, with an orange planting, but no hacienda today ?

Gracias

Well I still respectfully disagree amigo, your site is too far north, plus I have not seen any proof that it was operating in the correct time period, there is no mine nearby named Juana del Arco, then there is the royal road sign found in Sinaloa, further reinforcing that your Naranjal is too far north to be the one of legend. But you are certainly welcome to call it what ever you wish, and of course what is in a name, when the gold sells for over $1200 an ounce? (hee hee) I do love your map though!

No liquids that came out of any donkey or donkey parts, COFFEE anyone?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

roy, remember there was no Sinaloa in that period. Just where is this Juana de Arco mine ?? Remember this was a clandestine mine, similar to Tayopa, as such, I doubt that they would advertise it by a road side sign.

I rather think that they were after the fact stories added to the orginal to make it seem genuine,since they don't coincide, similar to Tayopa.

Genuine unadulterated sock coffee, no yellow burro additives

( You'll wonder where the yellow went, when you brush your teeth with Pepsodent )

Burma shave.

 

[Not Peralta]

Amigo's,now now , just because your angry over my burro juice, doesn't mean you cant play nice, today some lawyer friends of mine that always send me fresh fish when they go out in the gulf, sent me some grouper ,and blackened sauce, so tomorrow I will fire up the grill and have some blackened grouper,with fresh veggies, and wine,every one is welcome in spirit. np

 

[Shortfinger]

Well I still respectfully disagree amigo, your site is too far north, plus I have not seen any proof that it was operating in the correct time period, there is no mine nearby named Juana del Arco, then there is the royal road sign found in Sinaloa, further reinforcing that your Naranjal is too far north to be the one of legend. But you are certainly welcome to call it what ever you wish, and of course what is in a name, when the gold sells for over $1200 an ounce? (hee hee) I do love your map though!

No liquids that came out of any donkey or donkey parts, COFFEE anyone?

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and flies like a duck, it's a duck. So, since Don Jose's Naranjal fits in every respect, except it isn't where everybody thinks it is, I respectfully submit that is Naranjal. If it was where everybody thought it was, then it wouldn't be lost.....



Something for everybody here, NP, you will have to add your own burro juice.

JB

 

[J.A.A.]

Ah Simon ya got that last question by the skin of your teeth as time waits for no man. You cannot force people to be what there not. They are what they are. It is not talent or gift but a state of mind. And it takes the first few steps of a long journey to get you there.


Old man time has pointed to the hour glass my friends.


Sadly one again the time has came for this old raggedy old Crow with half his feathers missing to disappear. Like a willowisp here one moment gone the next....Such is the fate of Crows my friends, dwellers of the fringe margins of society caught between the living and the dead and often seen as demonic, mischievous and free spirited. Loved by some, hated by others. But always surviving in places where others fear to go.

I hope ya all have had some enjoyment and pleasure in from the yarns and you truly find the treasures you seek.

View attachment 1243415


Until the next time the wind that blows raggedy old Crow this way......


Crow

All the best to you and your little birdie Crow. As has already been said by others, thank you for the amazing yarns you've shared with us! Many safe & happy returns.

Cheers to you-
JA

 

[Oroblanco]

roy, remember there was no Sinaloa in that period.

As far as I am aware, that consolidated state of Sinaloa/Sonora did not exist until 1824, which is AFTER the time period of El Naranjal. Besides, the state the mine is in, is not a matter of moving some boundaries, as you know most of the Naranjal searchers have focused their efforts in Sinaloa and adjoining areas of Durango, not way north in what is today Sonora/Chihuahua.

Don Jose el Tropical Tramp also wrote

Just where is this Juana de Arco mine ?? Remember this was a clandestine mine, similar to Tayopa, as such, I doubt that they would advertise it by a road side sign.

I do not know the location of the Juana de Arco mine, other than it was a nearby mine to Naranjal. They were not "clandestine" at all, and were not Jesuit or Franciscan or any of the Catholic orders as far as I could determine. This was a gold mine operated and owned by a hacienda owner, the fact that it was named on a Royal road sign should be clear evidence that it was NOT clandestine at all. Unless you wish to dismiss the story of the prospector finding the road sign, IN SINALOA, to make your 'Naranjal' fit.

Real de Tayopa also wrote

I rather think that they were after the fact stories added to the orginal to make it seem genuine,since they don't coincide, similar to Tayopa.

Genuine unadulterated sock coffee, no yellow burro additives

( You'll wonder where the yellow went, when you brush your teeth with Pepsodent )

Burma shave.

Well you are certainly entitled to your opinions. I suspect this is a case of funnel vision however, shoe-fitting your 'Naranal' to fit the Sinaloa story, similar to linking the lost Adams to Tayopa. Sorry if I can't buy it.

And definitely YES need more coffee, has been one of THOSE type days so apologies if this seems terse or disrespectful.

 

[gflores71]

Hello Joseph!

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning Dr Flores. I was just thinking of you this morning.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Oro de Tayopa, nah, no tunnel vision, however ''if'' it was 'not' a clandestine mine then it would have had to be registered with the mining agency, in which case it would have to been surveyed, open, pinpoining, data to whoever-was-concerned.. On the other mines/data you must know that I was joking??.

Naranjal, I am starting to get serious about, since it fits almost perfectly. It is also in a supposedly barren Basalt area, which would automatically preclude looking there.

The problem we have today is that too much has been added to the original story by varous writers, and story tellers..

AS I mentioned, I have leaves from the Orange trees. and Benito was cutting pieces from the stored Gold Bars whenever he needed money.

 

[Oroblanco]

Oro de Tayopa, nah, no tunnel vision, however ''if'' it was 'not' a clandestine mine then it would have had to be registered with the mining agency, in which case it would have to been surveyed, open, pinpoining, data to whoever-was-concerned.. On the other mines/data you must know that I was joking??.

Naranjal, I am starting to get serious about, since it fits almost perfectly. It is also in a supposedly barren Basalt area, which would automatically preclude looking there.

The problem we have today is that too much has been added to the original story by varous writers, and story tellers..

AS I mentioned, I have leaves from the Orange trees. and Benito was cutting pieces from the stored Gold Bars whenever he needed money.

I would point out that Napoleon III obtained maps which included one showing the exact location of El Naranjal, and one of Tayopa as well. He sent troops to several villages in Sinaloa apparently to prepare the way for the construction of railroads directly to the mines. If Naranjal were surreptitious, how would it have been recorded on a map?

Second point, where is there any mention of any gold BARS stored at El Naranjal? At Tayopa yes indeed we have the Tayopa inventory, listing massive treasures of both gold and silver, but not at Naranjal, only a rich gold mine.

I do wish you the best of luck with your Naranjal, hope you are able to re-open it and get it producing again. Perhaps you will find some evidence stored inside it, that will remove all doubt that it is Naranjal, or confirm that it is not Naranjal but is one of the Tayopa mines instead. After all Tayopa has seventeen named mines, is it not possible that one or more other mines may exist in the same general area, which were not yet discovered when the old Tayopa maps were being made, and thus are not named on it? Of course please add my name to the list of folks desiring to purchase a specimen of the ore, not a big one (budget precludes that!) a quite small one would do fine.

I fear that we are drifting off-topic of the adventures of a Tayopa hunter here, apologies for that, perhaps the Naranjal discussion ought to be moved to another thread. Please do continue;

 

[Oroblanco]

PS an after thought, relating to the clandestine idea.

As far as I can see, El Naranjal was not considered a clandestine operation. It could hardly be named on a Royal road sign if it were. Other cases of somewhat famous lost mines may show a parallel - here in the Black Hills we have the (locally) famous Lost Standoff Bar. What is remarkable about this case is that virtually EVERYONE knew exactly where Standoff Bar was located circa 1876; it is mentioned commonly and casually, referred to in newspaper articles and as a geographic landmark; yet strangely, after the original locaters and miners had quit the mine with their fortunes, leaving the mine NOT at all played out but with plenty of gold remaining (as one owner put it, they felt that if they should ever need money again, they could simply return) by 1878, NO ONE knew where Standoff Bar was located! How is this possible? In this case, the place where the mining records were being stored, (at the courthouse in Deadwood) burned to the ground in a terrible fire, and the actual claim records for Standoff Bar, along with many other mines that existed at the time and before, were lost forever. Considering the political upheavals that Mexico suffered, including the tensions between the numerous poor and few very rich landowners, it is no surprise that some land records probably went the way of wisps of smoke. Not saying that MUST be the case here, but that it is possible. It is also possible that the landowners themselves, obtained the official records and removed them, in a desire to protect their mineral properties by simply making them NOT immediately available to anyone that wished to view the official records. There are cases where this has occurred here in the US, where we did not have the repeated revolutions and virtual class warfare that occurred in Mexico. Also remember that Mexico was for all intents invaded by a foreign power (France, with some troops from Austria as well) and how local patriots might react to help prevent a foreign power from obtaining the wealth (and minerals) of Mexico.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Beth, pop him for me, he maks too much sense, however, not wthstanding his true facts, there are conflicting true ones,
Naranjal lies in The Tayoa zone-- or a reasonable facsimile of it. I submit that many of the Id's on Naranjal were after the fact - added by various authors, similarily to the LDM.

It falls into the Gloria Pan mine class, , whch I found, and have done nothing with, as I have posted befor in here


The problem with lost mines is that they seldom have a proven identity when found, I.E. nothing that says that here is "X" mine, so we have to interpolate it with existing data - if any.

Naranjal and Tayopa 'were' in Durango..

P.S. Records were kept in both the state and Mexico Ciy mining offices to cover just such an emergency.

 

[gflores71]

How are things going Joseph? I have been busy making kids lately but hope to get back out on the field in a few weeks.
Hope things are well for you .

G

 

[Oroblanco]

Beth, pop him for me, he maks too much sense, however, not wthstanding his true facts, there are conflicting true ones,
Naranjal lies in The Tayoa zone-- or a reasonable facsimile of it. I submit that many of the Id's on Naranjal were after the fact - added by various authors, similarily to the LDM.

It falls into the Gloria Pan mine class, , whch I found, and have done nothing with, as I have posted befor in here


The problem with lost mines is that they seldom have a proven identity when found, I.E. nothing that says that here is "X" mine, so we have to interpolate it with existing data - if any.

Naranjal and Tayopa 'were' in Durango..

P.S. Records were kept in both the state and Mexico Ciy mining offices to cover just such an emergency.

A thorough search of those records, just might turn up the documents for Naranjal and the hacienda too.

Beth rarely visits T-net any more, so you are out of luck on that count. I generally do my own research anyway.

I do not see what is an issue, as you have located a rich gold mine, the next step is obvious. We can argue about what name to call it later. How about El Mandarina?

Please do continue, sorry for the off-topic stuff.

Coffee?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

La Mandarina ?? nah, let's call it the 'Oro de Tayopa'. ( Tayopa was Silver ) And it is in line with the general theme of the forum. Which includes Burros such as yourself

 

[PROSPECTORMIKEL]

Yeah, ORO this is the best place for this discussion.
I'm fairly sure that everyone can find and copy maps for this discussion.
Even when I don't find the evidence to support a theory, I ( we ) still enjoy the discussion!!

Keep it here..
MIKEL

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EVERYONE PUT YOUR STAMP
( LIKE ) HERE TO SUPPORT THIS EXCHANGE, HERE!!