MAP TO LDM FOR SALE!

[alaskabill]

That's the trouble with an online (or book) translations. Also, the same problem with learning a language in most schools.

It does not have the ability to translate anything but a direct word, and totally can miss any inflections - or dialects, or even proper uses. (such as proper, familiar, etc. - which spanish has a lot of).

B

Hi Mrs. B... I agree. Translating words on these maps is a challenge to get the mapmaker's meaning and purpose for using the terms. I really get skeptical when I see some English words used with the Spanish, for example "cave de casa". In this example, I question the originality of the map. Makes me think it is a "re-draw" by someone from the original. Was anything left out from the original or added to confuse later viewers?

The misspelling of a Spanish term doesn't necessarily cause me to question the map's authenticity. I believe misspellings might be intentional for a particular reason, for example, to draw attention to this feature of the map.

Let's assume that the perfil map or one of the versions was authentic and one of the Peralta/Gonzales mines was nearby. And lets assume that a natural feature visible from the trail was very close to the location of the destination. And assume the site was over the hill where the marker is found. And this feature looks like an upside down farming or gardening tool or could be shaped into looking like such a shape. In my mind, it seems to me to be a logical strategy to place on the map a misspelled word that has a meaning to the mapmaker and intended users of something that reminds them of the trail marker. This technique would add more protection and be less obvious in case the map falls into the wrong hands.

In this case, according to Kenworthy, the mine site is on the other side of the hill where the weed hook image is located. The fact that the marker is not in the normal orientation that the tool would be used (upside down) could be significant and suggest a change in direction horizontally or vertically is necessary, ie, not only to "come this way UP the hill or around the hill AND THEN DOWN behind the hill to the mine or next marker".

There is at least some logic in Kenworthy's interpretations of the perfil map and apparently he found a mine site. Whether it was the LDM or a location used by the Dutchman in some manner is yet to be determined. I still want to go there myself and see if I agree with his conclusions.

Bill

 

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[RGINN]

I'm runnin all these words by the wife. She has no clue what escarda or escardadera mean. The closest we knew was escarbar, which means to dig or scratch. Could be a colloquialism from an hispanic speaking country, or an adaptation of another word.

 

[alaskabill]

I'm runnin all these words by the wife. She has no clue what escarda or escardadera mean. The closest we knew was escarbar, which means to dig or scratch. Could be a colloquialism from an hispanic speaking country, or an adaptation of another word.

Thanks, RGINN, for the comments. I agree. It's probably a local colloquialism then misspelled. I wonder if the word was such a term used by folks that lived around the area of Mexico where the Peralta family lived?

Bill

 

[RGINN]

The map does say 'caverna con casa'. The 'rna' part is across the line. It does look like somebody made a copy of another map, and it's not original, and may not mean much of nothin. The KGC would use intentional misspellings to draw attention to certain words so that those in the know would pick up on the meaning. (I don't know how I suddenly became an expert on KGC, but I'm re-readin Hillbilly Bob's book, so that probably produced that last statement.)

 

[alaskabill]

The map does say 'caverna con casa'. The 'rna' part is across the line. It does look like somebody made a copy of another map, and it's not original, and may not mean much of nothin. The KGC would use intentional misspellings to draw attention to certain words so that those in the know would pick up on the meaning. (I don't know how I suddenly became an expert on KGC, but I'm re-readin Hillbilly Bob's book, so that probably produced that last statement.)

Hi RGINN,

I stand corrected. I went back and found the Perfil Map I was referring to an sure enough, the rest of the Spanish word is a little misplaced and to the right of the vertical line as you described. While I was looking for that example, I found three versions of the Perfil Map and I bet there have been more. Can anyone post an image of what is considered to be the original?

I have a few comments on the theory that the LDM legend was a creation to disguise a depository of the KGC and Jacob Waltz might have been a member and guardian or sentinel of the KGC. I am just beginning my research on the KGC and this connection. In the books I have that mention Jacob Waltz, I cannot find any reference to him being a soldier in the Confederacy. A search on Ancestry.com gives many soldiers in the Union Army with the name of Jacob Waltz, but none in the Confederacy. It is true that JW did not necessarily have to be a Confederate soldier in order to become a " sentinel" to protect a KGC depository. Are there any references with information that JW was in any way tied to the Southern movement? I have yet to read Shadow of the Sentinel by Getler and Brewer and suppose there will be some information in that book.

Thanks for keeping me straight,

Bill

 

[gollum]

Bill,

There are at least four Perfil Maps that I know of, and each one has some subtle differences. I think that Cactus Jumper knows a little more about this map than most.

Best-Mike

 

[alaskabill]

... There are at least four Perfil Maps that I know of, and each one has some subtle differences. I think that Cactus Jumper knows a little more about this map than most.

Thanks, Mike,

If CJ doesn't respond here in a while, I'll contact him via PM and ask him to post an image of the "official" original if he has one.

Bill

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike and Bill,

I believe there are many, many Dutch Hunters out there who know more about the Perfil Map, than I do. While I have many friends and relatives who looked for, and believed they found, Waltz's mine, I have never searched for it......on my own.

This copy of the map was said to have come from Erwin Ruth:

I may have something else buried around here somewhere. I will look this week.

Take care,

Joe

 

[alaskabill]

Hi Joe,

Thanks for the quick reply. If you have any others, it would be interesting to compare.

I just wish these authors would put in their books where they got the "maps". Some have indicated they came from the Superstition Mt. Historical Society Museum, but then you wonder where the Museum got the images. It may be really difficult to track down the "original" perfil map that hasn't been copied over or modified in some way assuming that it exists. I've noticed that the vertical letters under the arrow have been indicated at least two different ways which could be significant: " E. to W. to N. (or W ) to S." and "E. to W. tontos". The first depiction might have a big meaning that defines how to orient the map or the shapes on the map. The second depiction draws attention to "tontos" which some researchers define as the tall, narrow columns of rock that rise above the terrain like small geological versions of Weaver's Needle in several places in the Super's. But, here again, the straight definition of "tontos" translates into English as "silly". Maybe in this geological context it could mean "unusual" rock formations..... quien sabe...

Still curious,

Bill

 

[Oroblanco]

Tag post, please ignore

 

[cactusjumper]

Bill,

There must be millions of unusual rock formations in the Superstitions. I believe I have heard the hoo-doos referred to as Tontos in the past, but have no idea why.

The following picture was taken while we were searching for the circle in a circle from the Stone Maps. It's right where I laid it out on a topo over forty years ago:

The heart formation would be considered unusual as well. The darker brush below the heart forms a huge triangle. Above it, on the main mountain, are numerous hoo-doos/Tontos:

Take care,

Joe

 

[RGINN]

Bill, you must come up with that book and read it sometime; it's a good read. We could probably all make more money writin about treasure than actually findin it. I think the only more lucrative form of writin would be ransom notes, if everything worked out alright.

 

[alaskabill]

Bill, you must come up with that book and read it sometime; it's a good read.

I know.... you are right... I found a copy on Amazon and will probably send for it this week.

Bill

 

[alaskabill]

Bill,

There must be millions of unusual rock formations in the Superstitions. I believe I have heard the hoo-doos referred to as Tontos in the past, but have no idea why.

The following picture was taken while we were searching for the circle in a circle from the Stone Maps. It's right where I laid it out on a topo over forty years ago:

The heart formation would be considered unusual as well. The darker brush below the heart forms a huge triangle. Above it, on the main mountain, are numerous hoo-doos/Tontos:

Take care,

Joe

Hi Jo,

I learn something new every day. Probably shows how much of a "cheechako" I am about the southwest and some of the terminology. "hoo-doos" is a new term for me. Any idea how it was derived?

The pictures are special. I know what you mean. The shapes and images when just looking around are sometimes mesmerizing. I don't know what it is about that part of Arizona, but I see a special beauty which is difficult to descrbe and impossible to forget. Something is always drawing back to that wilderness. But I think my next trip will be on horseback from Ron Feldman's OK Corral.

Bill

 

[cactusjumper]

Bill,

Hoodoo is African in origin, for the most part. It means conjuring or working magic on someone. The name has been used widely for any number of applications. It's probably an early African American corruption of the word voodoo.

In geology it simply means an erosion chimney [pillar] or column. I am unsure why they coined that word, but would guess that it has to do with the Native Americans believing that the forms are actually their dead ancestors. Thus they would be specters or spirits, which would fit in well with the voodoo theme.

I could be wrong, so don't go taking that opinion to the bank. I shouldn't have hyphenated the hoo and the doo.

Take care,

Joe

 

[lamar]

Dear alaskabill;
The word HOODOO is strictly a treasure hunting word and it is derived from people such as myself, because every time a treasure hunter would point out a naturally formed rock column and tell a bystander that the colum was a sign and that there was a treasure in the immediate vicinity, the bystander would immediately and vocally exclaim to the treasure hunter "Hoodoo you thinking you're fooling?!?!?!? There's no treasure buried there!" And that's how the word came to be, my friend.
Your hoodoo ya'll think you're kidding friend;
LAMAR

 

[cactusjumper]

 

[Cubfan64]

I've seen areas identified as hoodoos in Wisconsin, Michigan and now New Hampshire as well as Arizona and New Mexico.

It seems to refer to many kinds of "column" shaped rock formations that are primarily formed by wind errosion (at least the ones I've heard called that are due to wind).

Just my $0.02

 

[alaskabill]

Dear alaskabill;
The word HOODOO is strictly a treasure hunting word and it is derived from people such as myself, because every time a treasure hunter would point out a naturally formed rock column and tell a bystander that the colum was a sign and that there was a treasure in the immediate vicinity, the bystander would immediately and vocally exclaim to the treasure hunter "Hoodoo you thinking you're fooling?!?!?!? There's no treasure buried there!" And that's how the word came to be, my friend.
Your hoodoo ya'll think you're kidding friend;
LAMAR

Well, LAMAR, that brought several spontaneous loud bursts from "the golden pipes" and got my wife's attention in the other room ! That was great. She sez that I'm having absolutely too much fun on this forum, but of course I disagree....

Bill

 

[Oroblanco]

ROFL good one Lamar!


I believe Cubfan has it - there are Hoodoos here in the Black Hills too, and are standing columns of stone. There is even a Hoodoo mining area, which however has none of the standing pillars.

I will have to remember Lamar's definition, reminds me of a mining town in CA - "Igo-ono".
Oroblanco