Lue Map

[sdcfia]

... There is a major clue in TOTVOS to what KVM was talking about. ...
Now you will all pull out your copies of TOTVOS and pour over it. I reread it six times before I found it. I hope you find it too. ...

Regards
LUE-Hawn

As with all "important treasure legend" documents, anything of interest is likely to be subtle. I don't know about everyone else's TOTVOS copies, but the one I have shows some odd graphical anomalies that seem to indicate imperfections with a manual typewriter. If I were more than mildly interested in the story (I'm not), I'd spend some time on this peculiarity, just for s & g. Are the marks tied to certain words or letters in the text? Do the marks form a distinct pattern to be used on a USGS topo map? Etc, etc. One of those "hidden in plain sight" thingys.

My working model of the LUE is that it has nothing to do with "Spanish treasure" and everything to do with the Gold Act of 1933. I also see KVM as one in the same league as Dobie, Michell and others - creators of "Spanish treasure" cover stories that cleverly overlay large caches of melted down US gold coins.

 

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[Randy Bradford]

My working model of the LUE is that it has nothing to do with "Spanish treasure" and everything to do with the Gold Act of 1933. I also see KVM as one in the same league as Dobie, Michell and others - creators of "Spanish treasure" cover stories that cleverly overlay large caches of melted down US gold coins.

This is a pretty intriguing possibility, particularly since it can be proven with reasonable certainty that Karl von Mueller by his own admission, liquidated a cache of silver he and Montana Larry found by melting it down, recasting them as silver arrowheads, and selling them through various publications.

That said, I think when talking about Karl von Mueller, one thing keeps coming up that the facts won't bare out. People on this forum have implied that he made a living telling treasure stories, making up stories, or keeping stories in the forefront of the populace. Read Sudden Wealth, read THM 6 and 7, read the NPG...read anything Karl wrote and you will see a very distinct pattern if you're open to observing it.

The pattern: Karl told VERY FEW treasure stories. Very few. He was openly critical of "big ticket" treasure stories like the Dutchman, the Adams Diggings and Victorio Peak. He thought they were bunk, he routinely pointed out how these treasures are "found" dozens of times a decade with nobody profiting from them. Karl was critical of treasure magazines that printed, reprinted, and rehashed old stories that he felt had little to no basis in fact to begin with. Karl recognized that most of those treasures, if they had any basis in fact at all, had been looked for by dozens, even hundreds of folks for decades. Let me repeat, Karl told VERY FEW treasure stories. 42 issues of the NPG (Volume 6 to 12) , 6 issues per volume, 24 pages each...TWICE in all those issues did he run a treasure story as a cover story. One about the LUE and another, that he didn't even write, about the Beale Treasure. That's roughly 8 full pages in 800 pages of material, and that's not counting his books.

What DID Karl write about, and write a ton about?

Karl wrote about treasure recoveries...where people found stuff, how they went about finding it, how they went about keeping it, how they learned to think like someone who would hide something. Where to look for information about a treasure, who to ask about information about a treasure, when to search for it, why someone would hide it, who hid money and under what circumstance, HOW to put all of this information together in a way that would lead to the highest likelihood of a successful treasure. Karl talked about how the best treasure sources don't have the word "treasure" in them (Refer to my volume 1 if you have it, or Journals of El Dorado). Karl talked about how finding treasure was a chore, but that finding it didn't mean your work was done. He understood and reported on the dangers of scoring a big one...both from claimants to said treasure, to crooks and to the Government.

I'm not worshiping at the alter of Von Mueller, but what I've read, studied, and talked to others bares this up. Karl wasn't spinning yarns, even if you find his character suspect, suggesting he was just in it to tell tall tales is an easily disproved mischaracterization.

 

[Old Bookaroo]

sdcfia: "I also see KVM as one in the same league as Dobie, Michell and others - creators of 'Spanish treasure' cover stories that cleverly overlay large caches of melted down US gold coins." That's certainly a new theory to me. Prof. Dobie was an accomplished folklorist - his sources are detailed in his many books. I don't think he created any of his stories. Michell was a treasure hunter himself - I don't know if he ever was a treasure finder. As for KvonM, I'm not aware of any stories he created, either. And a very small portion of his body of work mentions "Spanish treasure." Some have speculated that's the source of the LUE - but I don't think the foundation for that theory can be found in Karl's work.

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo
​

 

[sdcfia]

Well, I'll defer to your (Booky and Randy) KVM expertise on his career. I used to subscribe to the Prospector's Gazette for a while back in the day and I guess my memories of KVM were only that he was a treasure writer and a metal detector guy. I wrote him a letter back in the 80s seeking advice about a geotech topic and he wrote back with an answer, but also chastised me for not including a SASE with my letter. "Shows what you think my opinion is worth", he said. I thought that was funny and showed me he had a sense of humor. Letter below, with a bunch of later scratched notes of mine and my return address blocked out.

Re the LUE, however, I thought the story lacked substance and, along with the TOVOS, was made up. Some strongly believe it was a hoax. I tend to wonder if it contained some sort of a message unrelated to Spanish treasure. The LUE map, IMO, is a cartoon. The numerous alleged LUE recoveries in NM did not ring true for me. Of course, as always, I may be wrong. I looked into the LUE story briefly decades ago, saw little to focus on and moved on.

 

[Spyro]

Very good - like Don Quixote "tilting at windmills" - KvM never found ONE SPECK OF THE LUE - and the Scarlet Shadow treasure he sought was a FOOLS ERRAND

But he did a "good job" convincing the gullible and mostly himself, that he could find a cave filled with boulder size gold nuggets with a TOY medal detector.

And I'll leave it at that.

 

[Old Bookaroo]

sdcfia; Vintage KvonM. He and his wife would return from a trip and find so much mail on their front table they couldn't see the table. There was a code to put on the envelope so he would know the sender was a regular correspondent. It isn't much of exageration to say he could have spent 8 or 10 hours a day writing letters in reply to requests for help and answering telephone calls seeking the same.


I'm not entirely convinced about either the LUE or The Valley of Secrets (always sounds to me like the name of a Sherlock Holmes story!). I don't think KvonM made them up.

As for hidden Spanish treasure - I'm sure a great many of the yarns are fiction. On the other hand, there isn't much doubt they not only plundered but mined a great deal of silver. Elsewhere on TN I posted an account of The Arizona Mine.

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo

 

[LUE-Hawn]

LUE MAP Page 5

Springfield posted it to a forum on Sep 06, 2013, 08:41 PM about Water Glyphs

Its there if you like to view it.

Randy responded to it on Dec 11, 2013, 01:12 PM

I'd like to see the map. I think we have here a classic case of The Missing Link.

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo[/QUOTE]

 

[LUE-Hawn]

Karl von Mueller by his own admission

S P A N I S H J E S U I T T R E A S U R E M A P

Take a big bowl mix the above ingredients and it bake it for 400 years and it will come out smelling like the LUE and the best part is you can chew on it, put it on display in its golden glory and be the envy of everyone who does not think it is true. It is in its glorious form to confuse the dreary light hearted individuals who are frustrated by the fact they cannot read it or find it. It tickles me to a knowing end.

Put your LUE foot in. Put your LUE foot out. Put your LUE foot in and shake it all about. You do the hokey pokey and you turn yourself around that is what the LUE is all about.

In knowing )

Regards

LUE-Hawn

PS: For those of you who enjoy bashing KVM and the LUE/TOTVOS writings I will break out my smallest violin and play you sonata of tears and sorrow due to the handicap you have forced your brain into.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

"Handicap"...? OFFENSIVE! From a "GREEN member"...?

 

[LUE-Hawn]

"Handicap"...? OFFENSIVE! From a "GREEN member"...? Yes rightly so!

"Handicap"...? OFFENSIVE! From a "GREEN member"...?

Yes, Green Members are always on the offensive, unless you back them into a corner then they will take a defensive posture. You must be willing to accept the outcome in doing so.

You have to look at what the map says. Don’t look with your old eyes. Look at what it is telling you. If you close your brain off (handicap), you have developed a barrier that won’t allow you to think any further and see the solution.

KVM was correct in his assumption of where the LUE and TOTVOS were located (Remember he moved to Segundo an unassuming place). They are there plus there are at least 15 sites identified on the map alone. If there are more sites then so be it and if they were solved using the information KVM has printed then you have uncover the clues. He was very crafty and did not devulge too much. Then you have to look at the TOTVOS clues. They too are correct.

Do not devulge too much either. You won’t tell people to go ten (10) paces to the west turn at the round rock till you see the shadow of the m next to the legless turtle with the x on its shell with the shovel buried up to the hilt with a sign saying dig here. Neither did KVM if he did it was discretely in a different connotation to make you think as to what he really was saying.

He said only two people deciphered the map and recovered the treasures therein. Bravo for those who did and bravo for the ones who found similar pots of gold along that line. Its there you just have to look with a new set of eyes.

The Jesuits and Spanish were a nasty bunch. Remember they were the ones who brought you the “Inquisition”. So squishing you under a rock or letting you breathe poisioned air are not out of the realm of possibilities. Remember watch out for danger signs and death traps. They are real and they will kill or maim the unwary.

Have fun, go prepared and be safe

Regards

LUE-Hawn

 

[Spyro]

Ummm .. LUE-Hawn?

Coronado nor any of is fellow Spanish explores found ANY gold in the America southwest. The Jesuits in his entourage led him and the others like Alvarado on a FOOLS ERRAND; they believed the "legends" told to them by the native Indians - which cost El Turco his LIFE - when Coronado reached Quivara. All one has to do is spend 15 minutes reading the HISTORY per the Spanish explorers.

Coronado's Journey Through New Mexico, Texas, Oklahoma, and Kansas | Planetary Science Institute

"Having found no transportable wealth, ailing from his injury, and wanting to see his wife again, Coronado ordered a return of the army to Mexico in 1542. The expedition was considered a colossal failure, squandering fortunes of several participants. Coronado resigned his governorship of the northwest frontier of New Spain and retired to his estates. The Spanish were so disillusioned by the lack of rich empires that they didn't return north in substantial numbers for half a century. Although the Coronado expedition mapped the northern Gulf, pioneered a route to New Mexico, explored America all the way to Kansas, and made the only observations of pre-European native life, most of this knowledge was lost."

Go ahead and believe what you wish.

Here's some MORE TRUTH: Neither KvM nor ANYONE he wrote about found ONE SPECK OF THE LUE

To believe OTHERWISE is like believing in the TOOTH FAIRY

View attachment 1599527

 

[sdcfia]

Ummm .. LUE-Hawn?

Coronado nor any of is fellow Spanish explores found ANY gold in the America southwest. The Jesuits in his entourage led him and the others like Alvarado on a FOOLS ERRAND; they believed the "legends" told to them by the native Indians - which cost El Turco his LIFE - when Coronado reached Quivara. All one has to do is spend 15 minutes reading the HISTORY per the Spanish explorers.

Coronado's Journey Through New Mexico, Texas, Oklahoma, and Kansas | Planetary Science Institute

"Having found no transportable wealth, ailing from his injury, and wanting to see his wife again, Coronado ordered a return of the army to Mexico in 1542. The expedition was considered a colossal failure, squandering fortunes of several participants. Coronado resigned his governorship of the northwest frontier of New Spain and retired to his estates. The Spanish were so disillusioned by the lack of rich empires that they didn't return north in substantial numbers for half a century. Although the Coronado expedition mapped the northern Gulf, pioneered a route to New Mexico, explored America all the way to Kansas, and made the only observations of pre-European native life, most of this knowledge was lost."

Go ahead and believe what you wish.

Here's some MORE TRUTH: Neither KvM nor ANYONE he wrote about found ONE SPECK OF THE LUE

To believe OTHERWISE is like believing in the TOOTH FAIRY

View attachment 1599527

You might want to investigate more in depth the life of Marcos de Niza, particularly his relationship with Coronado (whom Marcos quite completely sandbagged in 1540), and his views on the Spanish Conquest in general. By the way, it was the Franciscan Order, not the Jesuits, that accompanied Coronado in 1540. Big difference.

 

[markmar]

There are rumors and maybe facts which say how the Sierra de Spuma ( Superstition Mountains Arizona ) was named by the Coronado party after they have ventured and lost some " heads " in that region . Also , maybe with the Marco de Niza colaboration , Coronado's trusted guys did some workings in that region too .
IMO , this should to be the real route going north ( the part from Tucson to White mountains ) , marked with green , which Coronado followed in his quest . The other route could been in the returning .

 

[Spyro]

Marcos de Niza DIDN'T FIND ANY GOLD EITHER! Quit watching National Treasure 2 on a constant loop! There is no hidden cave nor lake behind Mr. Rushmore! The movie was filmed at Sylvan Lake, in Custer National Park.

https://nuttyhiker.com/national-treasure-2-rock/

Watch EVERYBODY - National Treasure 2 is a MOVIE! It's FAKE - like KvM claiming he and others found a portion of the LUE cache!





Regardless what KvM or anyone else tells you - THE SPANISH nor Franciscan's didn't find ONE SPECK OF GOLD in the Southwest! .. and NEITHER did de Vaca!

AND neither KvM nor ANYONE he wrote about found ONE SPECK OF THE LUE

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcos_de_Niza#cite_note-2

Fray Marcos de Niza (c. 1495 – March 25, 1558) was a Spanish missionary and Franciscan friar. He is credited with being the first European in what is now the State of Arizona in the United States.

He emigrated to America in 1531 for exploration of new land, and after serving his order zealously in Peru and Guatemala, de Niza was chosen to explore the country north of Sonora, whose wealth was depicted in the accounts of Álvar Núñez Cabeza de Vaca.[3]

In 1537 he arrived in Mexico City at the request of the viceroy Antonio de Mendoza. Preceded by Estevanico, the Moroccan-Berber companion of Cabeza de Vaca in his wanderings and the Black Mexican of Zuni traditions, Culiacán in March 1539, crossed south-eastern Arizona near the present-day Lochiel, penetrated to the Zuni or the Seven Cities of Cibola, and in September returned to Culiacán. He saw Cibola only from a distance, and his description of it as equal in size to Mexico City was probably exact; but he embodied much mere hearsay in his report, Descubrimiento de las siete ciudades, which led Francisco Vázquez de Coronado to make his famous expedition next year to Zuni Pueblo, in present-day New Mexico, of which Fray Marcos was the guide; and the realities proved a great disappointment.

Fray Marcos was made provincial superior of his order for Mexico before the second trip to Zuni, and returned in 1541 to the capital, in shame, where for a time was able to exercise the highest office of the Franciscans, in the province.
View attachment 1600085

 

[markmar]

Spyro

Stop to write about the LUE like you know what it represents and where it is located . You write about Coronado and Marcos quests like you were there . The truth is different and is out there . Search on the real footprints of both and maybe you will find the truth , not about the LUE , but about if they have found any speck of gold .
The LUE is free for every interpretation till someone can prove how have found what realy represents the LUE .

 

[mdog]

Marcos de Niza DIDN'T FIND ANY GOLD EITHER! Quit watching National Treasure 2 on a constant loop! There is no hidden cave nor lake behind Mr. Rushmore! The movie was filmed at Sylvan Lake, in Custer National Park.

https://nuttyhiker.com/national-treasure-2-rock/

Watch EVERYBODY - National Treasure 2 is a MOVIE! It's FAKE - like KvM claiming he and others found a portion of the LUE cache!





Regardless what KvM or anyone else tells you - THE SPANISH nor Franciscan's didn't find ONE SPECK OF GOLD in the Southwest! .. and NEITHER did de Vaca!

AND neither KvM nor ANYONE he wrote about found ONE SPECK OF THE LUE

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcos_de_Niza#cite_note-2

Fray Marcos de Niza (c. 1495 – March 25, 1558) was a Spanish missionary and Franciscan friar. He is credited with being the first European in what is now the State of Arizona in the United States.

He emigrated to America in 1531 for exploration of new land, and after serving his order zealously in Peru and Guatemala, de Niza was chosen to explore the country north of Sonora, whose wealth was depicted in the accounts of Álvar Núñez Cabeza de Vaca.[3]

In 1537 he arrived in Mexico City at the request of the viceroy Antonio de Mendoza. Preceded by Estevanico, the Moroccan-Berber companion of Cabeza de Vaca in his wanderings and the Black Mexican of Zuni traditions, Culiacán in March 1539, crossed south-eastern Arizona near the present-day Lochiel, penetrated to the Zuni or the Seven Cities of Cibola, and in September returned to Culiacán. He saw Cibola only from a distance, and his description of it as equal in size to Mexico City was probably exact; but he embodied much mere hearsay in his report, Descubrimiento de las siete ciudades, which led Francisco Vázquez de Coronado to make his famous expedition next year to Zuni Pueblo, in present-day New Mexico, of which Fray Marcos was the guide; and the realities proved a great disappointment.

Fray Marcos was made provincial superior of his order for Mexico before the second trip to Zuni, and returned in 1541 to the capital, in shame, where for a time was able to exercise the highest office of the Franciscans, in the province.
View attachment 1600085

What is the significance of this rock?

 

[sdcfia]

... Fray Marcos was made provincial superior of his order for Mexico before the second trip to Zuni, and returned in 1541 to the capital, in shame, where for a time was able to exercise the highest office of the Franciscans, in the province.

A little of the back story might help understand what happened in 1540. Marcos arrived in Mexico in 1537, by that time a staunch supporter of Native rights in the New World. He wrote much in those years after Peru (most of it gathered and destroyed by the Conquistadores and their supporters), condemning the abusive treatment of Natives and the methods used to extract information from them. The influential Bartolome de Las Casas greatly supported this point of view, which helped lead to the Provincial Superior appointment.

The real unknown factor is whether or not Marcos found anything of value during the earlier 1539 expedition with Estavanico, which he began with Coronado, who was sidetracked in Mexico and never made it to the Northern Frontier. If he did make a discovery, he certainly didn't share it with Coronado during the 1540 expedition when he led that group to a dead end at Zuni, then returned to Mexico. Coronado then chased rumors all the way to Kansas with nothing to show for two years on the road. The only shame cast upon Marcos was by Coronado's folks, whose high hopes were dashed. Makes one wonder if Marcos kept valuable information for himself. His behavior 1539-1540 was certainly odd. He remained Provencial Superior until his death in 1558 - apparently still supported by his own people.

 

[Spyro]

Remember - Fray Marcos de Niza was a FRANCISCAN. To this day, Franciscan's take an oath to POVERTY, I attended a Franciscan church.

Lying or hiding wealth is antithetical to the Franciscan vow.

https://franciscanmissionaries.com/franciscans-wear-brown/

Repeat after me: NEITHER THE SPANISH EXPLORERS NOR THE FRANCISCANS, de Niza specifically, DIDN'T FIND A SPECK OF GOLD IN THE AMERICAN SOUTHWEST

Repeat after me: KvM NEVER FOUND ONE SPECK OF THE LUE and IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SPANISH TREASURE

There .. do you feel better after you've stated THE TRUTH? To continue your TRUTH THERAPY .. repeat daily as often as needed to rid you mind of DELUSION

 

[Randy Bradford]

Repeat after me: NEITHER THE SPANISH EXPLORERS NOR THE FRANCISCANS, de Niza specifically, DIDN'T FIND A SPECK OF GOLD IN THE AMERICAN SOUTHWEST

Repeat after me: KvM NEVER FOUND ONE SPECK OF THE LUE and IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SPANISH TREASURE

There .. do you feel better after you've stated THE TRUTH? To continue your TRUTH THERAPY .. repeat daily as often as needed to rid you mind of DELUSION

Spyro, I'd like to think that underneath that gruff exterior, you might have something interesting to say.

Despite trying to pass off a fake book cover as a real book you know folks are looking for, I still think you might have something to say.

Despite using "KvM didn't find the LUE" in the same fashion most of us use a signature, and despite the fact nobody has even referenced KvM in 2 pages, I still think you have something interesting to say.

Instead of telling us how wrong everything and everyone is, how about you tell us your theory, provide some of your evidence, talk about things you tried that didn't work out. Tell us your thoughts on the symbology of the map, tell us your thoughts on what you've seen doing field work. Let's have a discussion about the map, what might help solve it, and why you've come to some of your conclusions. That sounds like something worthwhile don't you think?

 

[sdcfia]

Remember - Fray Marcos de Niza was a FRANCISCAN. To this day, Franciscan's take an oath to POVERTY, I attended a Franciscan church.

Lying or hiding wealth is antithetical to the Franciscan vow.

https://franciscanmissionaries.com/franciscans-wear-brown/

Repeat after me: NEITHER THE SPANISH EXPLORERS NOR THE FRANCISCANS, de Niza specifically, DIDN'T FIND A SPECK OF GOLD IN THE AMERICAN SOUTHWEST

Repeat after me: KvM NEVER FOUND ONE SPECK OF THE LUE and IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SPANISH TREASURE

There .. do you feel better after you've stated THE TRUTH? To continue your TRUTH THERAPY .. repeat daily as often as needed to rid you mind of DELUSION

Your "Lying or hiding wealth is antithetical to the Franciscan vow" statement sounds more like your own personal interpretation of the Franciscan guidelines, not something originating within the Order.

To my knowledge, no indications have ever surfaced to indicate Marcos de Niza ever strayed from, "[FONT=Lato, Trebuchet MS, Helvetica, sans-serif]Poverty, Chastity and Obedience, the three cornerstones of the Franciscan Order" (from your link). My (and others') interpretation of the Franciscan vow may be more along the lines of "living the gospel and serving the poor". Re Marcos, his actions in Mexico - or omissions - may be looked at as his method of serving a higher purpose, no doubt based strongly upon what he saw in Peru.

Your bold red statements indicate more strong personal opinions. I can't support your first headline, but I do tend to agree with your second. Regardless, yelling doesn't convince. If you have something more to add to the conversation, that's what forums are for. [/FONT]