Lost Treasures of Ecuador

[Interested Party in UK]

thanks IPUK for the further infoys. It is interesting to note that,if I am not mistaken the area in question though ofcourse deep jungle and a national park ,may not be part of the legendary llangantes national park.It is north of it.
thanks again.





p.s.do you plan to trek there?


tintin treasure

No, it's not the Llanganatis national park.

I made an error in not visiting the Americas after completing university. I am now married with a young family and career, and it would be difficult for me to carry out a lifetime's ambition.

However, there shall be a spark sometime in the future where I shall do in reality what I've always dreamt about.

But any expedition needs proper planning,logistics and skills sets. More than that even, it needs a chance of succeeding. It is so easy and tempting to think one can simply go there and be successful. You could spend years mooching around, spending a small fortune, and never see a single speck of gold.

Do you wish to blaze a trail or two?


IPUK

 

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[tintin_treasure]

No, it's not the Llanganatis national park.

I made an error in not visiting the Americas after completing university. I am now married with a young family and career, and it would be difficult for me to carry out a lifetime's ambition.

However, there shall be a spark sometime in the future where I shall do in reality what I've always dreamt about.

But any expedition needs proper planning,logistics and skills sets. More than that even, it needs a chance of succeeding. It is so easy and tempting to think one can simply go there and be successful. You could spend years mooching around, spending a small fortune, and never see a single speck of gold.

Do you wish to blaze a trail or two?


IPUK

Thanks IPUK. You are right proper planning and cost/benefit analysis is crucial.For sure Family is a priority if you have started one. I also have great interest in such adventures,but probably not at this moment,,,

tintin treasure

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Thanks IPUK. You are right proper planning and cost/benefit analysis is crucial.For sure Family is a priority if you have started one. I also have great interest in such adventures,but probably not at this moment,,,

tintin treasure

Nothing stopping us talking, discussing and debating about such interesting stories...

 

[tintin_treasure]

Nothing stopping us talking, discussing and debating about such interesting stories...

IPUK.Sure.Consider such debates and info sharing as part of the planning phase. Infact TH should be more of research and only conduct calculated few effective trips.Hence it would be in your advantage ,to see others go before you and report thier trips as you narrow down your area every time while making your research further.By the time your kids graduate and go out of the home you make your BIG move

tinitn treasure

 

[doc-d]

Part of the research may be spending time in country to learn, to search, and confirm or deny information obtained…….speaking with the locals can provide useful information also……….many legends are handed down…….
And if nothing else, time spent is a great vacation…..

 

[lvcharb]

Nice Discovery Channel documentary .... resulting from the 1995 Norman Scott Expedition based in part on the discoveries of Eugen Brunner.

 

[lvcharb]

First of all Samuel Albertson was the name supplied by Honigsbaum, not Donald Bermender. Secondly, the evidence is clear that it would have been impossible for Donald to fabricate the story .... could he have used literary license to fill in points of the story .... of course .... just as Dyott, Brunner, Lourie and Honigsbaum did! "Valverde's Gold" is more fiction than fact! The three "heirs" to the story are still alive today .... Don Bermender, Dyott's son and Brunner's son-in-law (author of "Lust for Inca Gold") .... yours truly. (Recent unpublished research also supports portions of the Blake/Chapman connection.)

 

[doc-d]

lvcharb, please share with us some of the facts………..
Gracias y vaya con Dios

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Hey TT

Just been through some of my old stuff regarding the Valverde Derrotero.

Forgive me for posting in fits and bursts, but I've just had a big move and there are things all over the place and my papers date back to many years on this.

Anyway, I was corresponding with this chap who was pretty methodical and professional in his research, and we came to the conclusion based on various bits of evidence and likelihood, that if the derrotero was genuine and existed, then in all probability it pointed to a gold mine in the Llanganatis mountains. As I've said previously, all this Atahualpa's ransom and llama-loads of treasure is simply not true and was a detail added well after any event. During the strife after the Spanish conquest, there were many tribes resentful of Inca rule who did more than most to aid the downfall of the Incas. They provided resources, auxiliaries, scouts, porters and translators for the conquistadors. They knew that the invaders lusted after gold. If there was such a mythical hoard in the mountains would the remaining Incas and loyalists be able to hide and secure it even from them??

There was a Spaniard in the early part of the 19th century who was shown a rich location of placer gold in the Llanganatis mountains by his Indian wife. He would periodically visit the site surreptitiously and remove enough to fill a small sack or two and bring it back to Quito. He then used to have it assayed and smelted into bars before selling it to the local financial institutions. This raised the suspicions of the local magistrate and the villagers of the local native girl. The Spaniard and his wife both left for Spain with a trunk or two of "private articles". After many years of living well in Spain, the Indian wife died and the Spaniard was in ill health. Nearing his end he left a letter for the king of Spain at that time giving instructions to a "fabulous location". He said that the king could assume control of this mine that 'belonged' to the Spaniard, if the king would grant some sort of pension and land concession to the heirs of the Spaniard and his native wife. This letter and 'derrotero' were what was sent to Quito for the local governor to look into, and the as they say, 'the rest is history'.

The above is my belief on what may have happened all those years and centuries ago.

There was no Inca ransom, hidden treasure cave, sailors finding the location and then mysteriously dying and suchlike.

Simply a location to a good spot to find some gold in its natural state.

It took many years of research, but I reckon that this is what took place.


IPUK

 

[doc-d]

Ahh but what of the mine?
And while the mine likely exists, a visit to Quito's museum and churches will reveal many gold artifacts……keep in mind the old priest of Cuenca (Crespi?) spoken of in other posts, who collected many gold artifacts. While the ransom may, or may not have existed, there is proof of considerable gold artifacts in Ecuador and SA in general.
Given the above, there is very likely stores of artifacts hidden away as various societal changes took place.

 

[tintin_treasure]

Hey TT

Just been through some of my old stuff regarding the Valverde Derrotero.

Forgive me for posting in fits and bursts, but I've just had a big move and there are things all over the place and my papers date back to many years on this.

Anyway, I was corresponding with this chap who was pretty methodical and professional in his research, and we came to the conclusion based on various bits of evidence and likelihood, that if the derrotero was genuine and existed, then in all probability it pointed to a gold mine in the Llanganatis mountains. As I've said previously, all this Atahualpa's ransom and llama-loads of treasure is simply not true and was a detail added well after any event. During the strife after the Spanish conquest, there were many tribes resentful of Inca rule who did more than most to aid the downfall of the Incas. They provided resources, auxiliaries, scouts, porters and translators for the conquistadors. They knew that the invaders lusted after gold. If there was such a mythical hoard in the mountains would the remaining Incas and loyalists be able to hide and secure it even from them??

There was a Spaniard in the early part of the 19th century who was shown a rich location of placer gold in the Llanganatis mountains by his Indian wife. He would periodically visit the site surreptitiously and remove enough to fill a small sack or two and bring it back to Quito. He then used to have it assayed and smelted into bars before selling it to the local financial institutions. This raised the suspicions of the local magistrate and the villagers of the local native girl. The Spaniard and his wife both left for Spain with a trunk or two of "private articles". After many years of living well in Spain, the Indian wife died and the Spaniard was in ill health. Nearing his end he left a letter for the king of Spain at that time giving instructions to a "fabulous location". He said that the king could assume control of this mine that 'belonged' to the Spaniard, if the king would grant some sort of pension and land concession to the heirs of the Spaniard and his native wife. This letter and 'derrotero' were what was sent to Quito for the local governor to look into, and the as they say, 'the rest is history'.

The above is my belief on what may have happened all those years and centuries ago.

There was no Inca ransom, hidden treasure cave, sailors finding the location and then mysteriously dying and suchlike.

Simply a location to a good spot to find some gold in its natural state.

It took many years of research, but I reckon that this is what took place.


IPUK

IPUK,,thanks again for the lights you are shedding. If I correctly understood, you are of the opinion that there could be well a significant treasure buried with Atahulapa in the areas of his ancestors north of the Lllangnates. But as far as the Llangnates is concerned at best we have a lost gold mine from which Valvarde used to help himself.
One thing in the timing, I used to have the impression Valvarde lived sometime(several decades) after the collapase of the Inca empire ,not in the early 19th century. After Valvarde we have the Guzman map story and Richard Spurce appears in the scene in 1860.So we are dealing with a recent story then if Valvarde was in the early 1800s? Interesting.


thanks

tintin treasure

 

[Interested Party in UK]

TT

Yes you are correct. Atahualpa was buried hastily once his body was retrieved from Cajamarca (where the god-fearing Spanish had burnt it for good measure so that he could not be worshipped like his ancestors), and he would have had all the pomp and ceremony - albeit on a much reduced scale and with much lamentation due to the circumstances - but with what treasure he had accumulated in his lifetime. The remaining Incas in Quito knew that the Spanish were heading towards Cuzco and had time to 'plan' things in the north of their diminishing empire.

As far as the Llanganatis mountains are concerned, yes, the derrotero probably points to a gold mine ( the Incas stored gold like all of their other resources until needed) and not a gold cave. This Valverde probably visited the mountains sometime around 1770s/80s in my opinion. It is said by some that Spruce actually tried to arrange a secret expedition whilst recuperating when he came across the story. He supposedly based his search around the foot of a mountain (not Cerro Hermoso) as there had been a German traveller who had uncovered a fortune from an old report in German archives from when ships from present-day Germany actually landed in SA after the conquistadores and had a tense stand-off in present-day Colombia. An old shrine had been buried beneath a landslide caused by retreating remnants of the Inca army, and this German had to hire labourers from outside the immediate vicinity. He dug trenches on the mountainside and recovered some amazing pieces which were then sold to various museums and private collectors in Europe. He stopped due to suspicions of the authorities and hostility from the locals. But this shrine was not in the Llanganatis mountains.

Nowadays, the only folk getting rich from the aforementioned mountains, are local guides, suppliers and those that write books claiming 'new' information. A European chap had retrieved small gold and silver objects from one of the lakes in the Llanganatis mountains that was worshipped as a deity. The Ecuadorean government actually checked all the other lakes (in the 1930s) for further treasure but found none. They then seeded the lakes with fish.

All expeditions that enter the mountains always believe that they'll be the 'One' to uncover something special. They never do because there is nothing there....now.


IPUK

 

[tintin_treasure]

thanks IPUK...one point of potential problem with the alleged treasure buried with Atahulapa is the role of Ruminawi..In your theory,once Atahulapa died then few of his loyal followers took his body north,then with the informed incas in Quito the treasure of Athualapa was secured in Quito and along with Athlapa was buried somewhere north in his ancestral land.But also you hold that Rumnawi once he learned about the death of Athulapa assumed and consolidated power in Quito by even killing Athulapa loyalists and near relatives. This short period of Ruminawi in Quito I think is critical for any theory.I mean the short period until the spanish reached Quito from Cusco. How would such a power mongering Ruminawi allow the entire Imperial treasure of Quito to be sent to be buried with Athulapa? Sure he would have it collected in Quito for the obvious reason of hiding it from the impending Spanish and also the Imperial ambition he had. But can we say he gave his blessing for it to be taken from his eyes for burial with Athualapa in afar away place by Athulapa loyalists whom he was attacking? Doesn't it seem more logical to have it buried or hidden by himself somewhere on the ground of his choice whether in Lllamgantes or elswherefor for future extraction? Or did Ruminawi himself supervise the burial of Athualapa alongside the treasure leaving Quito for sometime to fulfill a necessary inca custom even at a loss of the Imperial treasure? That is a bit of a problem I would say that the theory doesn't address. In any case thanks for the important inputs

tintin treasure

 

[Interested Party in UK]

TT

I am glad that you raise such a validated and obvious point - what about Ruminahui?

The Inca Atahualpa was still communicating with his nobles and army even whilst being held captive by the Spanish. Whilst he was alive, he
gave the orders. He once boasted to Pizarro, "The birds do not even sing in my lands without my permission!"

I think it is a telling point that to speed up his ransom, he advised the Spanish to send people to Pachacamac and Cuzco, not Quito. He spent nearly a year as a captive. Plenty of time to arrange things.


Up until Almagro landed on the coast with reinforcements, Atahualpa still thought he might win his freedom. He then started to communicate with his generals. Don't forget, the maternal relatives of his - the Shyris- were the true natives of Ecuador. There was no 'Imperial' treasure; just Atahualpa 's personal stuff that was still significant. This was probably appropriated whilst he was still alive.

Only after the inca's demise did old Rumipants declare himself ruler.


IPUK

 

[tintin_treasure]

Thanks IPUK for the extra details...That gives your theory a more coherent picture.It is quite a fascinating story indeed.Do shed more light as you recall your research.thanks.

tintin treasure

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Thanks IPUK for the extra details...That gives your theory a more coherent picture.It is quite a fascinating story indeed.Do shed more light as you recall your research.thanks.

tintin treasure

No problem TT.

There are many snippets of valuable information and details that all give super pieces towards the jigsaw puzzle. The puppet inca Marco, gave up valuable treasures that had initially been hidden.

The great inca Huayna Capac's daughter provided much silver that was secreted, but the Spanish treated her terribly.

With the Llanganatis, people want to believe that those forbidding, mysterious mountains hide something. But i am fairly certain that it isn't any great inca treasure.


You are right TT, it's an amazing story and one that will never fully unravel.


Only the Inca saga and the Lost Adams Diggings have captured my imagination regarding lost treasures. Well, some others as well but those are the main two.



IPUK

 

[Crow]

Hello Doc, TT, INPU and others. Some interesting comments here. Had a long fight. Gee go away a couple of days and all the interesting stuff comes out.

I must admit I too think in along the lines of INPU. I do know of massive burial ground north of Quito.

And I too do not think the Inca would of had any time to build an elaborate tomb for the remains of Atahualpa. For one they were decimated by smallpox that was more lethal than the conquistadors themselves. It absolutely smashed in Inca empire as native South American Population had no immunity to the disease that spread rapidly from the first contact with the Europeans.

Infact I could post more on it. However I leave that information for INPU as he hopes to explore that region one day.

Crow

 

[tintin_treasure]

Thanks Crow and Welcome back. It would probably be fair to assume given the prestige the inca emperors had, they would have built thier secret tombs while they were alive. Building one's elaborate tomb was a custom in ancient civilizations. They would have put his embalmed body and whathever treasure they secured in this secret pre made tomb and hid any trail of it.Or if they didnt biuld one,they could have used one of thier secret caves as his tomb along with his treasure. I dont think they would settle away with small burial arrangement.

tintin treasure

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Thanks Crow and Welcome back. It would probably be fair to assume given the prestige the inca emperors had, they would have built thier secret tombs while they were alive. Building one's elaborate tomb was a custom in ancient civilizations. They would have put his embalmed body and whathever treasure they secured in this secret pre made tomb and hid any trail of it.Or if they didnt biuld one,they could have used one of thier secret caves as his tomb along with his treasure. I dont think they would settle away with small burial arrangement.

tintin treasure

Hello Crow, TT

TT, with the very real and and desperate circumstances they were operating in, I doubt the Incas had time to plan anything elaborate. I would say the only thing they hoped for, was to ensure that the body and all its treasures were never found.

Crow, with regards to the burial site, are you referring to the one that was found near a hill by accident when some guys were trying to dig a ditch, and the whole village got in on the act?

I've seen the crown that was given as a gift to our queen from the Ecuadorian president in the 19th century. It was made from gold and had obviously belonged to somebody very important.

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Continued....


Nowadays, you have would have to decide if you'd 'accept' that finding treasure might mean digging from burial sites from times gone by. I'd there a right or wrong answer?

Crow,


Have you ever "mooched" around the gold - bearing sites in Panama or Costa Rica?

TT,


Did you ever hear about the Lost Gold City discovered by Colombian drug smugglers?


IPUK