Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this picture?

[Oroblanco]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Gollum wrote

Roy,

Once again it seems you failed to read the entire story. The Lt was not present when Edwards found the skeletons. The Lt made his decision from the saddle. He never got off his horse. In Edwards own words, after he found the gold he planned on coming back, so he didn't argue the point with Lt. Hutton. We also don't have anything written by Lt Hutton to give his thoughts or reasoning.

Also remember, its' not just Edwards. We have the Indian Scout Joe Green who came back with Matt Cavaness.

Waltz and Weiser first got to the mine in about 1874-1876.

The massacre happened about 1863-1864

Please stop making assumptions about what I read or did not read, what I believe etc based on questions posed or what is mentioned or not mentioned. I won't raise the whole issue of Hutton never once making any mention of finding any such field of skeletons in any report. The areas where Lt Hutton seems to have campaigned also makes no mention of any scout taking place in the Superstitions, but in Skull Valley, Prescott area and NE of there some considerable distances. However you have proposed dates which many Dutch hunters will agree with.

The problem is that by Waltz's own words, all of those Peralta-saga adventures took place before he filed on a piece of land in Phoenix; and we know that he filed on that land in 1868. We don't have a timeline for Waltz's movements to get a date for his story of the massacre, it could be a year it could be ten. If it happened in 1867 and Edwards/Green found the remains 1865.....! To further cause problems with the whole timeline, we can document Waltz as being present in Mississippi in 1848, in Sacramento in 1850, in Fellow Camp CA in 1860 where he remained until the flood of 1862, and Waltz is reported in La Paz AZ that same year; he filed on the Gross Lode in 1863 and the Big Rebel in 1864 both in the Prescott region; then the General Grant and he signed a petition in March of '64 from 1863 to 65/66 he seems to have remained there and done pretty well for himself. Waltz arrived in the Phoenix region in January or February of 1868 where he joined the men working on Swilling's irrigation project. So the whole timeline thing gets to be a real problem. Especially so since the Starar brothers seem to have contacted Waltz in the Prescott region to come and work at the 'big dig' and he then appears in Phoenix. Can't prove that Waltz was still in Prescott region in Dec of 67, but how else were the Starar brothers able to locate him?

If we say that Waltz and Weiser met with Peralta between 1866 and Feb of 1868, then there are many movements to have to fit in that space of time; According to the version found in Ely's book, he had gone with the Peraltas from Sonora to the mine, made the deal and returned with only his partner; went to Adams Mill for flour and came back to camp to find unmistakable signs of an Indian ambush including a bloody shirt that belonged to his partner. He then went to Mexico to tell Peralta, found him gone so went to live with the Pimas a while, <how long?> then to San Francisco where he worked on the docks; he then returned to Phoenix and filed on a homestead. That seems like rather a lot of movement to fit in that less than two years span of time.

The Peralta legend remains doubtful for me, however it is not essential to the basic fact of Waltz having gold from an unknown source.
Roy

 

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[Springfield]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Sheesh,

This thread travels fast.

I just want to post an old newspaper article - I found it interesting - this shows - documented in the time (not a generation later) just how well
"we" can tell the differences between Spanish, Indian, whites and the like.

I realize that this is an article of the times and not something someone "discovered" 50 years later, but, like someone said - I'd rather hear it from the folks that were actually there. (By the way, what else "jumps out at you?")

Beth

What jumps out at me is the remarkable silliness of the article. I suspect a number of people read this and believed Geronimo wasn't an Apache at all, but the son of a Mexican fiddler named Peralta. Methinks perhaps Geronimo was pulling the gullible perfesser's leg.

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

BB - just to get a clear answer from you...

How did this, posted by you on Sept. 6...

the massacre started at the Tayopa mine about 60ft in front of the mine there are human remains burn to death like they were cooked in oil or tar ... i would say there are 6 -7 in sight and maybe as many as 12-14 in a 30 yard area ...some were beheaded others burn alive by the looks , one has its mouth open like its screaming ,baked and black as sut ... it looks like they tried to hide in a small ditch area . and were draged out and killed

Turn immediately into this, posted on Sept. 7 when I asked you a question about what you found...

I just said we are not sure if they are human remains yet .. and i really dont have time right now .. but when i get back to the site i will go and check them out ,, its interesting enough to take the time and go see if they are human remains .....

So were they human remains or weren't they? So you were right there by them during one of your visits, but you decided it wasn't worth a few minutes to go take a closer look at what looked like 12-14 skeletal remains that had been burned?

Sorry, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who doesn't believe a word of this story.

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

dose that matter to me ,... NO

if those are remains , it changes nothing ..

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Sorry 'bout that, Mike,

It is a VERY old newspaper, its the best I could do with it. The point, which has everything to do with what is being discussed, is that, unless you have modern methods, not available back when the identifications were done - there is absolutely NO way to tell if there were bones of an indian,
a mexican or a mix of whatever.

Actually - there were more than one person who suspected that Geronimo was not an indian, or at least, not a full-blood indian. The point of the article, is that, YOU CANNOT tell by looking. Period. Especially at bones - unless you have more modern methods.

Beth

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Tell me - is this person spanish or indian? (and this is more than just bones)

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Beth,

"The point of the article, is that, YOU CANNOT tell by looking. Period. Especially at bones - unless you have more modern methods."

You have to know what to look for, but you can tell Southwest Indians from just the skull. So while your statement may be true, as it applies to most of us, it's not true.......the way you have stated it. The average person would have no clue.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

HI temporary custodian of my Range rover, ya over ripe avocado:

You posted -->Can you show me one place anywhere that describes Pima or Yavapai Indians with a fairly large scale mining operation, including an arrastra? I doubt you can.
*************
First may I ask you where I said that? An Arrastra is considered a small mining operation down here.

Second the Pimas down in this area did mine and own mines, still do..
=================================================================================================

You posted --> Every reference I have read regarding Indians bringing gold or silver in to trade has always referenced it as being hand cobbled.
*************
That is quite true even today, Spanish Mexicans also did that ?
=================================================================================================

You posted -->Jim Bark found a cave that contained about 200 pair of those cactus sandals. The sandals mentioned were pretty exclusive to open country travel. When the Mexicans got into mountainous territory they traded those sandals in for different footwear
************

As far as I have ever found out, that type of sandal was exclusively Indian, the Spanish used leather sandals. The grass ones wore out too easily, too fragile..
In the transitory phase to today they used old automobile tires, now all use shoes, leather or tennis
==============================================================================================

You posted -->the Apache wouldn't strip another Indian was because they may have some special object of strong medicine on them meant only for that Indian, and if they took it they would have bad medicine. Since whites and Mexicans had no beliefs like the Indians, there was no fear of that with them, so they were stripped of everything.
************
May I suggest that most Me xcians of that period were basically Indian also, and hence had that belief too. When I lived with the Yaqui, they often told me stories of the past, up to the 1930, 40's. when they had their last physical uprising. They stripped 'everyone', man woman, or child, of whatever they wore. When they returned with their loot, the Curenderos / witch doctors, earned their money by eliminating any bad thingies.. This same belief was applied to native animals also to an extent..
***********
You posted --> is the statement of a Sergeant in the US Cavalry who was a veteran of may incursions with Apache. I think that I will go by the opinions of an experienced prospector and Indian Fighter here.
*********
You were in the Military and make a statement like that ? heheheheheh Besides there were counter statements made. and yes I agree on 2nd Lt's, since I once was one snicker .

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[gollum]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Beth,

Nobody ever tried to make any evaluation as to race or nationality based on looking at the bones themselves, which is another reason Lt. Hutton came to his conclusion. He only saw the bones from horseback. Edwards and Green both thought they were Indians Bones as well, until Edwards looked a little closer and Mexican Pack Saddles, mining equipment, etc.

Okay Senor Whackamole,

You are wrong about those sandals my friend. They were worn by peons when traveling across open country (remember that we are talking about 150 years ago, they didn't have tires back then). When they got to the mountains they donned different sturdier footwear.

My opinion of second lieutenants is usually: if they began as enlisted then became officers they're okay, but if they came fresh out of college and got their commissions handed to them at the same time as their diplomas I don't have much respect. HAHAHA

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Just wanted to ask another question; which Don Jose' had touched on - if the Peralta mining party were mostly peons, what 'race' do you suppose those peons were? Were not the large majority of peons, Indians? Even including Pimas, and a smattering of friendly Apaches? How would you separate Pima peons from "Mexican" skeletal remains? Thank you in advance;
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

PS One more bit; that Peralta family tradition of a massacre and one survivor; could that not possibly trace to the 1879 incident west of the Superstitions, in which two brothers name Peralta were involved in an attack by Apaches, one killed and one survived with gold ore? In other words a real incident, a real Peralta killed, a real Peralta survivor of a real Apache attack, truly remembered by the family but later confabulated in with the whole massacre story by treasure writers like Bicknell & Storm.

 

[Twisted Fork]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

I would be surprised if Waltz made even a half dozen trips to the mine in all of those years. It wasn't that hard to get to, just 3 days each way. Surely he would have had concerns about the Apache guards and accordingly planed to carry back all he needed. He was crushed at the loss of his pal. Peralta would have killed someone over the loss of his sons; I think it would have connected.

 

[gollum]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

PS One more bit; that Peralta family tradition of a massacre and one survivor; could that not possibly trace to the 1879 incident west of the Superstitions, in which two brothers name Peralta were involved in an attack by Apaches, one killed and one survived with gold ore? In other words a real incident, a real Peralta killed, a real Peralta survivor of a real Apache attack, truly remembered by the family but later confabulated in with the whole massacre story by treasure writers like Bicknell & Storm.

Roy,

Maybe if Bicknell and Storm were the only two sources for the family history. Maybe you forget that Tom Glover actually interviewed Peralta Family Members (that's how he got the pictures for his book). Chuck Kenworthy interviewed both Peralta and Gonzales Family Members for his book. There have been others as well.

Sorry Roy, but the sources for the story go straight to the families.

Mike

 

[gollum]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Tell me - is this person spanish or indian? (and this is more than just bones)

Beth,

If all Edwards and Green had used to id the skeletons were the bones, you MAY have a point. Maybe if y'all went and reread the story........

You might notice that Edwards thought they might have been Indians by just seeing the bones. He got his first inkling they might not have been Indians when he saw the silver tooth in one of the skulls.

I know y'all are going to try and revive that old cow ... Massai. Y'all never answered my question LAST TIME I asked it, but maybe you can find me more than ONE Indian (of the period) that had any gold or silver teeth? Just ask yourselves, what is more likely, an Indian with a silver tooth or a Mexican with a silver tooth?

... add that to the only clothed skeleton he found wearing ALL WESTERN type clothes, with a poke bag containing about a pound of rich gold ore, followed the trail of skeletons back to a camp site where he found all kinds of mining tools, then followed a trail from THAT camp to a work site with an arrastra and pieces of rich gold ore that matched what he had found in the poke bag.

So, simply put, what is more likely considering all the evidence; Indian or Mexican? I got sucked back into this same old argument with y'all, having to repost the same info over and over, but not again. If y'all want to post an argument different from your same one (again) that takes into account all the known evidence, I will argue the point further. If not, I will leave it to everybody else to come to their own conclusions.

Best-Mike

 

[Springfield]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Just wanted to ask another question; which Don Jose' had touched on - if the Peralta mining party were mostly peons, what 'race' do you suppose those peons were? Were not the large majority of peons, Indians? Even including Pimas, and a smattering of friendly Apaches? How would you separate Pima peons from "Mexican" skeletal remains? Thank you in advance;
Oroblanco

I would suspect the mining party had a small number of Mexicans (Peraltas and others?) and a much larger number of native people, most likely non-Apache. In early New Mexico, and I presume Arizona too, most or all of the mine workers were native slaves, either brought north or conscripted on the way or on site. This is one reason the Apaches, for centuries, routinely killed Mexicans whenever encountered - they were very early victims of this treatment themselves. If the miners happened to be non-Apache natives (almost a certainty), they would have been killed along with their masters - there was no love lost between Apaches and any other tribes either. After the betrayals of Juan Jose at Santa Rita and Mangus Colorados at Pinos Altos, the Anglos became full-time enemies too.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Relax gully: The majordomos generally were Indian or mestizos. They wore the different clothing as a sort of badge of office, but not always. Speaking of the Peraltas, Prob. 90 % of the party were Indians of different tribes. Incidentally, the clothing of most Indians of that period consisted of a loin cloth, if that. What was there to strip?

Again I take issue with you on the subject of sandals, even the Apache used leather ones which also formed leggings. I will say one thing though, plant fiber sandals would be much more secure in climbing around on rocks, even if of far shorter life. Leather is too slippery .

This brings up an interesting thought, the mine must have been close by the storage cave. Hint

The remark on rubber tires was as a transitional factor in the evolution of foot wear, obviously not of the period which we are discussing, unless it was an OOP thingie. he heh e

As far as id'ing skeletons, that can be done on horse back just as well as kneeling. As Cactus mentioned, many of the tribes in that region had different skull shapes. Some were deliberately formed while in early childhood, such as the flat heads, as a quick positive identification of tribal allegiance . Handy in times of fighting.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. I was a swabbie for 4 years before -----------becoming a Sir.

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Relax gully: The majordomos generally were Indian or mestizos. They wore the different clothing as a sort of badge of office, but not always. Speaking of the Peraltas, Prob. 90 % of the party were Indians of different tribes. Incidentally, the clothing of most Indians of that period consisted of a loin cloth, if that. What was there to strip?

Again I take issue with you on the subject of sandals, even the Apache used leather ones which also formed leggings. I will say one thing though, plant fiber sandals would be much more secure in climbing around on rocks, even if of far shorter life. Leather is too slippery .

This brings up an interesting thought, the mine must have been close by the storage cave. Hint

The remark on rubber tires was as a transitional factor in the evolution of foot wear, obviously not of the period which we are discussing, unless it was an OOP thingie. he heh e

As far as id'ing skeletons, that can be done on horse back just as well as kneeling. As Cactus mentioned, many of the tribes in that region had different skull shapes. Some were deliberately formed while in early childhood, such as the flat heads, as a quick positive identification of tribal allegiance . Handy in times of fighting.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. I was a swabbie for 4 years before -----------becoming a Sir.

"the mine must have been close by the storage cave. Hint"

now that would depend on what mine you were going to ...hint...

 

[Springfield]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

.... This brings up an interesting thought, the mine must have been close by the storage cave. Hint....

Why? Makes more sense to me to separate them, the farther the better, within reason.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Good afternoon Springfield mi buddy: Ordinarily I would agree with you, but under the conditions that they were working (?) under, why spread out your operation making it more susceptible / vulnerable to Indian attacks?

First rule of warefare consolidate your lines of defense and communication. Right Gully?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Springfield]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Good afternoon Springfield mi buddy: Ordinarily I would agree with you, but under the conditions that they were working (?) under, why spread out your operation making it more susceptible / vulnerable to Indian attacks?

First rule of warefare consolidate your lines of defense and communication. Right Gully?

Don Jose de La Mancha

Sounds to me as if the attack was a surprise to the mining party since, afterall, they were massacred. It seems obvious they were unprepared for what happened to them. If they'd expected warfare, they certainly would have come north better prepared for it. Well, anyway, for security of the loot, I'd still want it away from the main activities.