Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this picture?

[Oroblanco]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Gollum wrote

Maybe you forget that Tom Glover actually interviewed Peralta Family Members (that's how he got the pictures for his book). Chuck Kenworthy interviewed both Peralta and Gonzales Family Members for his book. There have been others as well.

Sorry Roy, but the sources for the story go straight to the families.

From the families yes, but long after 1891; there is no documentation of their having had such a story prior to Waltz's death. One would think that a letter or a diary would turn up. Then there are the other victims - certainly they had families as well right? Why only a Peralta family memory?

I don't think it would be a simple task to identify the difference between Mexican Pima peon skeletal remains and Arizona Pima skeletal remains; plus the ONE found with clothes, and gold, was separate from the rest - remember? That one may not have even been a part of the massacre but a completely different encounter. Maybe even the Peralta brother mentioned in the 1879 incident. What do you do with that 1879 incident, to fit it in with the Peralta family if the large massacre story is accepted? I have not done an in-depth study of Indians with silver or gold teeth, and have no intention of doing so as dentistry is not my field of interest, and it only took a very few minutes of Google use to turn up the example I mentioned earlier. It was not unknown even for a wild Indian to have dental work done, clearly. For that matter I have not yet been able to find a report of Lt Hutton on the scout in the Superstitions, virtually all are elsewhere.

Roy

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Agony and Death on a Gold Rush Steamer: The Disastrous Sinking of the Side-Wheeler Yankee Blade - Grab it through Amazon!

[gollum]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Roy,

Are you still saying that it was Massai that had a gold tooth?

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

I can't recall offhand if it was Massai or the Apache Kid, sorry. If it is important I can find it fairly quickly.
Roy

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Roy,

No need to search for evidence that the Apache Kid had a gold tooth. He did not.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

It was also claimed that the head of the Indian was brought in and cleaned for a journey to the Fraternal Hall of Skull and Bones at Yale University, rather than collect any reward. It is supposed to have finally ended up at the Smithsonian Institution. It was so identified because the skull contained a gold tooth Massai was supposed to have obtained as a student at Carlisle Barracks Indian School in Pennsylvania. The real problem with this is that Massai never went to school in Pennsylvania…or anywhere else, for that matter. Neither did the Apache Kid, and this same story has been attached to his legend. However, the Carlisle Kid, Nah-Deiz-Az, did go to school at the Carlisle Barracks in Pennsylvania, only he had been tried and convicted and hanged in the 1889 roundup of the renegades.

Apparently the Apache with a gold tooth was the Carlisle Kid, Nah-Deiz-Az.

 

[gollum]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

I can't recall offhand if it was Massai or the Apache Kid, sorry. If it is important I can find it fairly quickly.
Roy

If you have it narrowed down to those two, I will tell you that Massai was supposed to have gotten his gold tooth when he was at Carlisle Barracks Indian School in Pennsylvania.

The only problem with that story is that Massai WAS NEVER AT CARLISLE BARRACKS INDIAN SCHOOL. Hmmmmmmmmm. Very interesting. Could it be that the gold tooth was story made up to account for the golf tooth in the skull of the skeleton that was found? Did Massai's son run around telling everybody that his father was dead so the manhunt would end, and his family could live free?

The very basis of the story as to how Massai got his gold tooth is BS. How do we know that Massai had a gold tooth? Is there a picture of Massai showing his bling?

There were three Apache that were constantly being confused with each other. They were Apache Kid, Massai, and the Carlisle Kid. The Carlisle Kid got his name because HE was the one that went to the Carlisle Barracks Indian School in Pennsylvania, but there is absolutely no record of him ever getting a gold tooth.

So, where are we? Your article showing the Apache attack of the Yavapai that evolved into Dr. Carlos Montezuma happened five or so years too late. We can't document any other massacre in the area at that time. We also can't verify that Massai (or any other Apache for that matter) had any gold or silver teeth. The story of how he got his could not be true, so how much credence should we give the rest of the story?

What we DO HAVE, are two experienced Indian Fighters that actually examined the skeletons, and both of them came to the same conclusion ... that they were Mexican Miners. The proof of that is that they both came back to the same place (at different times) to find the mine. We have a skull with a silver tooth. We have a skeleton still fully dressed in western style clothes with a bag of about a pound of rich gold ore around his neck (which means they didn't rot off the other skeletons, but had been stripped off). The trail of skeletons and personal effects led to a camp. A trail from this camp led to an arrastra, where Edwards found ore that looked just like the rich gold ore in the bag around the skeleton's neck. We also have modern day interviews with various members of the Peralta and Gonzales Families substantiating the massacre story. We have a family picture of Pedro Peralta, who was the only Peralta to survive the massacre. In his own words to the rest of the family, he left the area and moved West to get as far away from that place as he could. He married and lived to a ripe old age. He was the great great grandfather of Linda Peralta that was interviewed.

The only issue is the date of the massacre. Some of the Peralta Family said 1840 some said 1848, but the condition of the skeletons looked more like 1864 or 1865.

Mike

 

[gollum]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

It was also claimed that the head of the Indian was brought in and cleaned for a journey to the Fraternal Hall of Skull and Bones at Yale University, rather than collect any reward. It is supposed to have finally ended up at the Smithsonian Institution. It was so identified because the skull contained a gold tooth Massai was supposed to have obtained as a student at Carlisle Barracks Indian School in Pennsylvania. The real problem with this is that Massai never went to school in Pennsylvania…or anywhere else, for that matter. Neither did the Apache Kid, and this same story has been attached to his legend. However, the Carlisle Kid, Nah-Deiz-Az, did go to school at the Carlisle Barracks in Pennsylvania, only he had been tried and convicted and hanged in the 1889 roundup of the renegades.

Apparently the Apache with a gold tooth was the Carlisle Kid, Nah-Deiz-Az.

Here is the problem with THAT story Roy:

The skull with the gold tooth could not have been The Carlisle Kid's! He was hanged and buried for the killing of an Army Lt. Mott in 1889. Massai was supposedly killed by a posse in 1906 (when the skull was found beside a creek bed).

Maybe you can tell me how the skull with the gold tooth that was found beside a creek bed 17 (SEVENTEEN) years AFTER The Carlisle Kid was hanged and buried in a cemetery far away could be his? Grave robbers?

Looks like your story is falling to shreds there Roy.

Best-Mike

 

[Javaone]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

As far as 'documentation' is concerned regarding historical events, I believe first-hand personal recollection from participants greatly exceeds any other source for reliability. Diaries, journals, letters, reports, etc., especially, are the best we can expect at getting to anything resembling the actual events. Serious researchers and historians want unadulterated, first hand accounts - these are highly sought after for obvious reasons.

Newspaper articles and reports are notoriously unreliable, even though they are often accepted by the unwary as the unvarnished truth. This is obviously apparent in today's news world, and it was just as true in the frontier days. 'Official news' is always propaganda to some extent. If you've ever been interviewed by the media, you may understand a small piece of how it works.

IMO, Gollum has presented a much stronger arguement pertaining to events that resulted in what was found the massacre site. Based on the evidence available, it seems more likely that a group of miners were killed there.

There is absolutely no doubt that the Peralta 'Tobias' symbol is a dead match to the one shown in Kenworthy's book, Signs, Symbols, Shadow & Sun Signs - it's obviously the same. In fact, it's my belief that the 'Peralta Tobias' was Kenworthy's source for the symbol's use in his book in the first place. However, calling the 'Tobias' a 'well-known treasure symbol' is a stretch, IMO. Kenworthy is the current darling of the treasure hunters' realm and his work is routinely referenced by nearly everyone, true, but I think you'll find that all 'Tobias' discussions result from the repetition of page 19 from his book. Kenworthy has a lot of interesting ideas but IMO there's no reason to accept his word as gospel.

It was also claimed that the head of the Indian was brought in and cleaned for a journey to the Fraternal Hall of Skull and Bones at Yale University, rather than collect any reward. It is supposed to have finally ended up at the Smithsonian Institution. It was so identified because the skull contained a gold tooth Massai was supposed to have obtained as a student at Carlisle Barracks Indian School in Pennsylvania. The real problem with this is that Massai never went to school in Pennsylvania…or anywhere else, for that matter. Neither did the Apache Kid, and this same story has been attached to his legend. However, the Carlisle Kid, Nah-Deiz-Az, did go to school at the Carlisle Barracks in Pennsylvania, only he had been tried and convicted and hanged in the 1889 roundup of the renegades.

Apparently the Apache with a gold tooth was the Carlisle Kid, Nah-Deiz-Az.

Here is the problem with THAT story Roy:

The skull with the gold tooth could not have been The Carlisle Kid's! He was hanged and buried for the killing of an Army Lt. Mott in 1889. Massai was supposedly killed by a posse in 1906 (when the skull was found beside a creek bed).

Maybe you can tell me how the skull with the gold tooth that was found beside a creek bed 17 (SEVENTEEN) years AFTER The Carlisle Kid was hanged and buried in a cemetery far away could be his? Grave robbers?

Looks like your story is falling to shreds there Roy.

Best-Mike

I must agree with Springfield & Gollum -

This particular bebate is quickly becoming a "no contest".

Javaone

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

At last year's Rendezvous, Bob Schoose introduced a woman who was a decendant of the Peralta family (or the Gonzalez? I don't recall now) involved in mining in the Superstition Mountains - it was not the same woman that Thomas Glover interviewed in his book. I don't recall many of the specifics, but he had spent some time tracking her family down and also spent a good amount of time down in Mexico getting to know the family and helping them research their ancestors.

The unfortunate thing is that there was really very little specific information provided at the Rendezvous other than that her family indeed had been in the area mining and they were indeed involved in a "massacre" of some sort in the mountains.

I remember a number of questions being asked, but there were few specific answers. The "gist" of the conversations were such that the family wasn't willing or interested in sharing specifics regarding their history with just anyone - Bob had gotten to know them quite well and they respected and trusted him, but beyond that, they were not willing to share any of the specific research results with anyone else.

I'm hoping maybe Joe recalls more of what was said at the Rendezvous, but I recall a number of us being hopeful prior to hearing her talk that we might gain some insight as to the legitimacy of the massacre and mining history of the Peralta family but most of us ended up disappointed at the lack of specifics.

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Paul,

My memory of what was said, pretty much matches yours. Her name was Virginia Peralta and other than what you have mentioned, she spent a good deal of time talking about how wonderful Bob Schoose had been to her and her family. I can assure you that everything that was said was taped by Greg Davis. If you are interested, you might ask him if you could get a copy.

Dr. Glover ran into a young lady, quite by accident, at the Goldfield Museum, named Leslie Peralta. She confirmed the family tradition of the "massacre". She invited Thomas to her mother's home, Linda Peralta, and from that meeting, he was able to put the stories and genealogy of the family together.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Good morning my buddy Gully: You posted -->.. that they were Mexican Miners.
******************
Miners probably. Mexico origin, proof ? none. The gold tooth could have come from another period or even have an extremely simple explanation which has no connection with the supposed 'massacre' .
=================================================================================================
you posted -->The proof of that is that they both came back to the same place (at different times) to find the mine
*******************
Agreed, they probably returned, 'after' seeing the gold, but other than that ??
============================================================================================
Gonna propose another scenario, not one that I particularly believe in, but one for the sake of attempting to close up possible loose ends.

A bunch of Indian miners were mining using the latest techniques, they were massacred, supposedly by the Apache. Later a Caus. miner comes by, and as you said follows up the evidence to the arrastre and finds the mine. He then takes the samples for proof, intending to return with a stronger force to work the mine but is caught by hostiles, is wounded, but manages to escape, but later dies.

The scout in back tracking, finds him, but is there 'any evidence' that that the victims were directly connected time wise? Without an adequate forensic examination, there is no evidence that all died on the same day, week, or even the same year.

Incidentally, speaking for my self, if I had been in that supposed situation, the first thing that I would dump would be the useless mining tools, which should have been left back at the workings anyway.

However, If they were leaving, they would normally hide the equipment in the vicinity of the mine for recovery later when they returned, no? One loads their animals with high grade or processed metal when leaving temporarily, not useless tools and equipment which can be recovered upon return.

Too many loose ends being conveniently tied together with suppositions based upon casual data from too long ago.

If you aren't happy with the above, I can give you a few more possible scenarios . snicker.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Paul,

My memory of what was said, pretty much matches yours. Her name was Virginia Peralta and other than what you have mentioned, she spent a good deal of time talking about how wonderful Bob Schoose had been to her and her family. I can assure you that everything that was said was taped by Greg Davis. If you are interested, you might ask him if you could get a copy.

Dr. Glover ran into a young lady, quite by accident, at the Goldfield Museum, named Leslie Peralta. She confirmed the family tradition of the "massacre". She invited Thomas to her mother's home, Linda Peralta, and from that meeting, he was able to put the stories and genealogy of the family together.

Take care,

Joe

Thanks - I remember her name Virginia now - I think she was a relative of Linda Peralta too correct? I probably shouldn't have even introduced the topic since as you and I both recall, I don't think there was even one documented specific fact that was confirmed or denyed by Virginia. I know alot of people had really high hopes when we heard Bob was bringing someone from the Peralta family, but other than implying that her family did indeed have ties to the area and had alot of legends regarding their history, I don't think there was anything added that further clarified anything.

I'm sure as well that Greg has an audio recording as I think Virginia even commented that she knew she was being recorded and didn't seem particularily pleased by that (just my interpretation). I'm sure Greg would share the audiotape if someone were interested in listening to it - perhaps there was something said that could be further researched although I don't recall anything.

It probably wasn't worth bringing the topic up, but who knows, maybe someone else heard her talk and got more out of it than we did.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Cub fan: morning my friend : Regarding family members trying to tell what happend a few generations ago is almost useless. As an example my Paternal Grandfather disappeared one day while going downtown in Grass Valley.Calf. After several days a large reward was offered for any information. Someone came forward, claimed the reward, then disappeared.

His information led to a prospect hole where they found the body of my grandfather. He had been shot with a hi powered rifle. No one was ever charged with his murder.

Now I am far closer to what happened to my grandfather than any Peraltas were to their ancestors of that period. Except for family ties, marrages, etc., expect no correct details. forget it. I can't even tell you what county or even what state his body was found in. What could they tell you that hasn't already been told and retold, and modified how many times ??

Still, yes I would have liked very much to have listened to her, especially around a campfire in the Superstitions..

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[gollum]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Good morning my buddy Gully: You posted -->.. that they were Mexican Miners.
******************
Miners probably. Mexico origin, proof ? none. The gold tooth could have come from another period or even have an extremely simple explanation which has no connection with the supposed 'massacre' .
=================================================================================================
you posted -->The proof of that is that they both came back to the same place (at different times) to find the mine
*******************
Agreed, they probably returned, 'after' seeing the gold, but other than that ??
============================================================================================
Gonna propose another scenario, not one that I particularly believe in, but one for the sake of attempting to close up possible loose ends.

A bunch of Indian miners were mining using the latest techniques, they were massacred, supposedly by the Apache. Later a Caus. miner comes by, and as you said follows up the evidence to the arrastre and finds the mine. He then takes the samples for proof, intending to return with a stronger force to work the mine but is caught by hostiles, is wounded, but manages to escape, but later dies.

The scout in back tracking, finds him, but is there 'any evidence' that that the victims were directly connected time wise? Without an adequate forensic examination, there is no evidence that all died on the same day, week, or even the same year.

Incidentally, speaking for my self, if I had been in that supposed situation, the first thing that I would dump would be the useless mining tools, which should have been left back at the workings anyway.

However, If they were leaving, they would normally hide the equipment in the vicinity of the mine for recovery later when they returned, no? One loads their animals with high grade or processed metal when leaving temporarily, not useless tools and equipment which can be recovered upon return.

Too many loose ends being conveniently tied together with suppositions based upon casual data from too long ago.

If you aren't happy with the above, I can give you a few more possible scenarios . snicker.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Don Jose,

Your scenario is "possible". Not likely, but possible. Since there are no records of what happened, we should look at the most likely scenario based on the evidence we have. Remember Occam's Razor. All things considered, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one (USUALLY).

>>Yours is not the simplest one, nor the most likely. Show me one example of Indians mining using arrastras and iron tools on such a large scale.

>>Roy's is possible, but doesn't account for much of the known information. Jose's is more likely simply because it accounts for the information we know.

>>The story as known is the more likely of all the known possibilities. It encompasses ALL the evidence we have. It doesn't leave anything out.

Also Jose, if they were working the mine EVERY year, then yes, they would leave the tools on site. But, as we know from the story, due to the Apache, the Peraltas only worked their Superstition Mines a couple of times in ten or fifteen years. I don't think you'd want to leave your tools there that long.

Another thing is that both Edwards and Green didn't see the fully clothed skeleton and the gold he carried. Edwards was the only one to see it, and he didn't find that skeleton until he came back. Green may have seen it when he came back with Matt Cavaness, but he never says anything about it. Only Edwards mentions it in his journal.

Best-Mike

 

[FEMF]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Good morning my buddy Gully: You posted -->.. that they were Mexican Miners.
******************
Miners probably. Mexico origin, proof ? none. The gold tooth could have come from another period or even have an extremely simple explanation which has no connection with the supposed 'massacre' .
=================================================================================================
you posted -->The proof of that is that they both came back to the same place (at different times) to find the mine
*******************
Agreed, they probably returned, 'after' seeing the gold, but other than that ??
============================================================================================
Gonna propose another scenario, not one that I particularly believe in, but one for the sake of attempting to close up possible loose ends.

A bunch of Indian miners were mining using the latest techniques, they were massacred, supposedly by the Apache. Later a Caus. miner comes by, and as you said follows up the evidence to the arrastre and finds the mine. He then takes the samples for proof, intending to return with a stronger force to work the mine but is caught by hostiles, is wounded, but manages to escape, but later dies.

The scout in back tracking, finds him, but is there 'any evidence' that that the victims were directly connected time wise? Without an adequate forensic examination, there is no evidence that all died on the same day, week, or even the same year.

Incidentally, speaking for my self, if I had been in that supposed situation, the first thing that I would dump would be the useless mining tools, which should have been left back at the workings anyway.

However, If they were leaving, they would normally hide the equipment in the vicinity of the mine for recovery later when they returned, no? One loads their animals with high grade or processed metal when leaving temporarily, not useless tools and equipment which can be recovered upon return.

Too many loose ends being conveniently tied together with suppositions based upon casual data from too long ago.

If you aren't happy with the above, I can give you a few more possible scenarios . snicker.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Don Jose,

Your scenario is "possible". Not likely, but possible. Since there are no records of what happened, we should look at the most likely scenario based on the evidence we have. Remember Occam's Razor. All things considered, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one (USUALLY).

>>Yours is not the simplest one, nor the most likely. Show me one example of Indians mining using arrastras and iron tools on such a large scale.

>>Roy's is possible, but doesn't account for much of the known information. Jose's is more likely simply because it accounts for the information we know.

>>The story as known is the more likely of all the known possibilities. It encompasses ALL the evidence we have. It doesn't leave anything out.

Also Jose, if they were working the mine EVERY year, then yes, they would leave the tools on site. But, as we know from the story, due to the Apache, the Peraltas only worked their Superstition Mines a couple of times in ten or fifteen years. I don't think you'd want to leave your tools there that long.

Another thing is that both Edwards and Green didn't see the fully clothed skeleton and the gold he carried. Edwards was the only one to see it, and he didn't find that skeleton until he came back. Green may have seen it when he came back with Matt Cavaness, but he never says anything about it. Only Edwards mentions it in his journal.

Best-Mike

Hello Mike
Green was killed at Fort McDowell by an escaped Apache, armed and hold up in the guard house, before he could take Matt Cavaness to the mine site, Helen Corbin's, Dutchman Bible!
FEMF

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

FEMF,

I believe the Indian was still in the guardhouse when Green looked inside through a small hole. The Indian stabbed him in the eye with a bayonet, which eventually killed him.

That's how I remember the story. There were two Indians involved in the escape attempt, this one ended up back in the guardhouse.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

g'mornng Ladies & gentlemen: & gully of course. I am fortunate in one respect in this discusion, I only know what I have seen posted in here, so I have no preconceived ideas to modify.

Gully, you posted->Remember Occam's Razor. All things considered, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one (USUALLY).

********************
You obviously haven't heard that it is being rapidly replaced with RDT's one

=================================================================================================

you posted->>>Yours is not the simplest one, nor the most likely. Show me one example of Indians mining using arrastras and iron tools on such a large scale.
********************

You want an extremely wild one to fill that in ? k.

it was a marauding group of Indian raiders that happened to stumble across the miners at work. They killed all but one, then dumped the bodies down into the workings, stripped what ever they thought could be of value, then headed out. Unfortunately for them they ran into a group of Apaches (?) in superior numbers that were approaching with the same idea, who killed them all in turn.

In the meantime the lone surviving miner took some hi grade samples to convince others to return with him later to mine again, tried to flee on foot, but was caught, mortally wounded, but got away to die alone later.

The rest is supposed true history.

Have a better one if that isn't good enough heeehehheh
=================================================================================================

You posted -->The story as known is the more likely of all the known possibilities. It encompasses ALL the evidence we have. It doesn't leave anything out.
******************

Nor does the above scenario.


Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[FEMF]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

FEMF,

I believe the Indian was still in the guardhouse when Green looked inside through a small hole. The Indian stabbed him in the eye with a bayonet, which eventually killed him.

That's how I remember the story. There were two Indians involved in the escape attempt, this one ended up back in the guardhouse.

Take care,

Joe

Hello Joe
Your right, you corrected it just as I was trying to!
Thanks!
FEMF

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

FEMF,

It's not really important, just habit with me. It remains one hell of a story.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

FEMF,

Read the story closer. Green did go back. He just didn't get a chance to go back a third time with the soldiers.

Green didn't see the clothed skeleton when he was with Edwards. Edwards went back later and found the fully clothed skeleton with the poke bag. There was also only about 1 pound of ore. Green pulled out a 2 pound chunk of ore to show Matt Cavaness. That alone says he went back after he and Edwards had been there. He did the same thing Edwards had done by following the trail of skeletons, personal effects, and trails to the arrastra. Maybe he found the actual mine or maybe the ore was just from the arrastra area.

Best-Mike