Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this picture?

[gollum]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Another reason I say it is a Tobias Symbol is because of the meaning of the Tobias Symbol "A":

Your journey begins here - Begin reading this map at this point. BEGIN AT THE POINT TO WHICH THE LONG ARM OF THE "t" IS POINTING.

Notice that the long arm of the "T" is pointing at the beginning of the dotted line?

HHHHHHMMMMMMMMMM Provocative!

Best-Mike

If the "T" is actually related to this point ...
the Spanish reference suggests to go NE.
T=23 + D=5 x 2 = 33varas.
The chain dots are classic 100 vara points.

The Tobias Symbol is just saying to follow the long arm of the "T" to find where to begin the trail to wealth/mine/treasure. That's all. The only thing that suggests NE is if you believe the Dagger points North on the Upper Trail Map, then the dotted line starts off going NE.

I don't know where you got the "T=23 + D=5x2=33"?

Mike

 

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[Blindbowman]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

it is a Tobias Symbol ,, to bad nether of you can read or translate worth a Sh**!

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Good morning : Gully, you posted -->Along the way finding pieces of sandals (Mexicans not Indians wear those cactus sandals),
*************
Clarify this please. Indians used cactus materiel, plants, grasses, etc., for huaraches, the Mexicans invariably used leather ??

Second thought, the very first Spanish in the Americas found the Indians mining, crudely yes, but mining. As the Spanish developed mines and superior recovery methods, isn't it natural to assume that they would adopt the Mexican's methods also? Naturally this would include crushing and arrastre techniques, no?

After all, where did the Aztec's aquire the huge quanitites of Gold and Silver the sparked their distruction by the Spanish?

So far I am not convinced that they were automatically Mexicans.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Mike,

[Roy and Beth,

Here is a little something regarding the Peralta Massacre. I just got off the phone with Bob Corbin. He told me the story about how he got ahold of the journals of both Sgt. William Edwards and Joe Green (the two troopers who found the skeletons). He says that after reading the diaries, there is absolutely no doubt that those skeletons were Mexican, not Indian.

Best-Mike]

Bob is one of the true gentlemen of the LDM Community. He had some really amazing sources, and has more than paid his dues in the mountains. Treasures come in many forms and Bob is one of them. If he told you he believes in his source for that story, you can take that to the bank.

Take care,

Joe

did bob tell you where & what started the Peralta Massacre...?


the massacre started at the Tayopa mine about 60ft in front of the mine there are human remains burn to death like they were cooked in oil or tar ... i would say there are 6 -7 in sight and maybe as many as 12-14 in a 30 yard area ...some were beheaded others burn alive by the looks , one has its mouth open like its screaming ,baked and black as sut ... it looks like they tried to hide in a small ditch area . and were draged out and killed

no proof , . it never happend !
i dont know nothing ,,i have not seen anything , i dont want to talk about it ...latter

Excellent BB - go ahead and post the photos you must have taken of the corpses. I'm sure you can crop out enough area to not give away where it's located. Looking forward to seeing what you found.

 

[Springfield]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

As far as 'documentation' is concerned regarding historical events, I believe first-hand personal recollection from participants greatly exceeds any other source for reliability. Diaries, journals, letters, reports, etc., especially, are the best we can expect at getting to anything resembling the actual events. Serious researchers and historians want unadulterated, first hand accounts - these are highly sought after for obvious reasons.

Newspaper articles and reports are notoriously unreliable, even though they are often accepted by the unwary as the unvarnished truth. This is obviously apparent in today's news world, and it was just as true in the frontier days. 'Official news' is always propaganda to some extent. If you've ever been interviewed by the media, you may understand a small piece of how it works.

IMO, Gollum has presented a much stronger arguement pertaining to events that resulted in what was found the massacre site. Based on the evidence available, it seems more likely that a group of miners were killed there.

There is absolutely no doubt that the Peralta 'Tobias' symbol is a dead match to the one shown in Kenworthy's book, Signs, Symbols, Shadow & Sun Signs - it's obviously the same. In fact, it's my belief that the 'Peralta Tobias' was Kenworthy's source for the symbol's use in his book in the first place. However, calling the 'Tobias' a 'well-known treasure symbol' is a stretch, IMO. Kenworthy is the current darling of the treasure hunters' realm and his work is routinely referenced by nearly everyone, true, but I think you'll find that all 'Tobias' discussions result from the repetition of page 19 from his book. Kenworthy has a lot of interesting ideas but IMO there's no reason to accept his word as gospel.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Good mornring springfield: You posted ->

IMO, Gollum has presented a much stronger arguement pertaining to events that resulted in what was found the massacre site. Based on the evidence available, it seems more likely that a group of miners were killed there
******************

I tend to agree, but what were they, Spanish or Indian miners?

Any reference of any of the remains indicating female or children?


Also the criteria of the Apache taking only from the Spanish or Caucas., but not the other Indians is a bit weak. In those days you took what ever you wanted, or needed, and let your local currendero / witch doctor, work it out for you.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[gollum]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Good mornring springfield: You posted ->

IMO, Gollum has presented a much stronger arguement pertaining to events that resulted in what was found the massacre site. Based on the evidence available, it seems more likely that a group of miners were killed there
******************

I tend to agree, but what were they, Spanish or Indian miners?

Any reference of any of the remains indicating female or children?


Also the criteria of the Apache taking only from the Spanish or Caucas., but not the other Indians is a bit weak. In those days you took what ever you wanted, or needed, and let your local currendero / witch doctor, work it out for you.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Don Guacamole,

Can you show me one place anywhere that describes Pima or Yavapai Indians with a fairly large scale mining operation, including an arrastra? I doubt you can. I have never seen nor heard of any reference to Indians making and using arrastras for crushing ore. Every reference I have read regarding Indians bringing gold or silver in to trade has always referenced it as being hand cobbled.

Also, in the same area where Sgt Edwards found the camp, Jim Bark found a cave that contained about 200 pair of those cactus sandals. The sandals mentioned were pretty exclusive to open country travel. When the Mexicans got into mountainous territory they traded those sandals in for different footwear.

Sgt Edwards who was an experienced Indian Fighter stated quite clearly that the reason the Apache wouldn't strip another Indian was because they may have some special object of strong medicine on them meant only for that Indian, and if they took it they would have bad medicine. Since whites and Mexicans had no beliefs like the Indians, there was no fear of that with them, so they were stripped of everything. YOU may say that's a bit weak, but it is the statement of a Sergeant in the US Cavalry who was a veteran of may incursions with Apache. I think that I will go by the opinions of an experienced prospector and Indian Fighter here.

Mike

 

[gollum]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

As far as 'documentation' is concerned regarding historical events, I believe first-hand personal recollection from participants greatly exceeds any other source for reliability. Diaries, journals, letters, reports, etc., especially, are the best we can expect at getting to anything resembling the actual events. Serious researchers and historians want unadulterated, first hand accounts - these are highly sought after for obvious reasons.

Newspaper articles and reports are notoriously unreliable, even though they are often accepted by the unwary as the unvarnished truth. This is obviously apparent in today's news world, and it was just as true in the frontier days. 'Official news' is always propaganda to some extent. If you've ever been interviewed by the media, you may understand a small piece of how it works.

IMO, Gollum has presented a much stronger arguement pertaining to events that resulted in what was found the massacre site. Based on the evidence available, it seems more likely that a group of miners were killed there.

There is absolutely no doubt that the Peralta 'Tobias' symbol is a dead match to the one shown in Kenworthy's book, Signs, Symbols, Shadow & Sun Signs - it's obviously the same. In fact, it's my belief that the 'Peralta Tobias' was Kenworthy's source for the symbol's use in his book in the first place. However, calling the 'Tobias' a 'well-known treasure symbol' is a stretch, IMO. Kenworthy is the current darling of the treasure hunters' realm and his work is routinely referenced by nearly everyone, true, but I think you'll find that all 'Tobias' discussions result from the repetition of page 19 from his book. Kenworthy has a lot of interesting ideas but IMO there's no reason to accept his word as gospel.

Actually, the symbol was used on family treasure maps long before Kenworthy was born. I have copies of several Family Treasure Maps from the late 1700s up to the mid 1800s. Very similar Tobias Symbols are used on a couple of them in a similar fashion.

I have found time and again that things Kenworthy included in his different books keep proving themselves to be true. I have found many of the monuments in his books, and they are exactly as described. I have seen people say that he altered his pictures so they fit his stories. That is not true. But all the Kenworthy stuff is already in another thread. And yes he did get over a hundred pages of copies of monuments, symbols, signs, etc related to hiding treasure and mines. To answer the next question, I have NEVER seen nor heard of any King's or Jesuit's Code Book. I don't believe such a thing ever existed as a BOOK per se.

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Mike,

This is the arrastra you are speaking of:

I believe it was found by Kraig Roberts, and he showed it to a number of other Dutch Hunters. It dovetails nicely into the Green/Edwards story.....maybe too nicely.

In the same area, you will find this:

Both of these things are found fairly close to good water sources.....in season and may be close enough to a gold producing mine to be used on a small scale.

Before making a statement of belief on the whole thing, I would like to see the original family diaries submitted for authentication. Why has that never been done?

Who holds those original documents today?

Take care,

Joe

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Mike,

[Roy and Beth,

Here is a little something regarding the Peralta Massacre. I just got off the phone with Bob Corbin. He told me the story about how he got ahold of the journals of both Sgt. William Edwards and Joe Green (the two troopers who found the skeletons). He says that after reading the diaries, there is absolutely no doubt that those skeletons were Mexican, not Indian.

Best-Mike]

Bob is one of the true gentlemen of the LDM Community. He had some really amazing sources, and has more than paid his dues in the mountains. Treasures come in many forms and Bob is one of them. If he told you he believes in his source for that story, you can take that to the bank.

Take care,

Joe

did bob tell you where & what started the Peralta Massacre...?


the massacre started at the Tayopa mine about 60ft in front of the mine there are human remains burn to death like they were cooked in oil or tar ... i would say there are 6 -7 in sight and maybe as many as 12-14 in a 30 yard area ...some were beheaded others burn alive by the looks , one has its mouth open like its screaming ,baked and black as sut ... it looks like they tried to hide in a small ditch area . and were draged out and killed

no proof , . it never happend !
i dont know nothing ,,i have not seen anything , i dont want to talk about it ...latter

Excellent BB - go ahead and post the photos you must have taken of the corpses. I'm sure you can crop out enough area to not give away where it's located. Looking forward to seeing what you found.

I just said we are not sure if they are human remains yet .. and i really dont have time right now .. but when i get back to the site i will go and check them out ,, its interesting enough to take the time and go see if they are human remains .....

 

[gollum]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Joe,

I think Bob may know exactly who currently possesses the journals, but he wasn't talking. He has copies of them.

Mike

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

As far as 'documentation' is concerned regarding historical events, I believe first-hand personal recollection from participants greatly exceeds any other source for reliability. Diaries, journals, letters, reports, etc., especially, are the best we can expect at getting to anything resembling the actual events. Serious researchers and historians want unadulterated, first hand accounts - these are highly sought after for obvious reasons.

Newspaper articles and reports are notoriously unreliable, even though they are often accepted by the unwary as the unvarnished truth. This is obviously apparent in today's news world, and it was just as true in the frontier days. 'Official news' is always propaganda to some extent. If you've ever been interviewed by the media, you may understand a small piece of how it works.

IMO, Gollum has presented a much stronger arguement pertaining to events that resulted in what was found the massacre site. Based on the evidence available, it seems more likely that a group of miners were killed there.

There is absolutely no doubt that the Peralta 'Tobias' symbol is a dead match to the one shown in Kenworthy's book, Signs, Symbols, Shadow & Sun Signs - it's obviously the same. In fact, it's my belief that the 'Peralta Tobias' was Kenworthy's source for the symbol's use in his book in the first place. However, calling the 'Tobias' a 'well-known treasure symbol' is a stretch, IMO. Kenworthy is the current darling of the treasure hunters' realm and his work is routinely referenced by nearly everyone, true, but I think you'll find that all 'Tobias' discussions result from the repetition of page 19 from his book. Kenworthy has a lot of interesting ideas but IMO there's no reason to accept his word as gospel.

Actually, the symbol was used on family treasure maps long before Kenworthy was born. I have copies of several Family Treasure Maps from the late 1700s up to the mid 1800s. Very similar Tobias Symbols are used on a couple of them in a similar fashion.

I have found time and again that things Kenworthy included in his different books keep proving themselves to be true. I have found many of the monuments in his books, and they are exactly as described. I have seen people say that he altered his pictures so they fit his stories. That is not true. But all the Kenworthy stuff is already in another thread. And yes he did get over a hundred pages of copies of monuments, symbols, signs, etc related to hiding treasure and mines. To answer the next question, I have NEVER seen nor heard of any King's or Jesuit's Code Book. I don't believe such a thing ever existed as a BOOK per se.

Best-Mike

do you want to see the jesuit code book .. i have a copy ... .. think about it .. why would i show you this book ........lol


yes , mike there is a real jesuit code book .. i know i have it !

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Mike,

This is the arrastra you are speaking of:

I believe it was found by Kraig Roberts, and he showed it to a number of other Dutch Hunters. It dovetails nicely into the Green/Edwards story.....maybe too nicely.

In the same area, you will find this:

Both of these things are found fairly close to good water sources.....in season and may be close enough to a gold producing mine to be used on a small scale.

Before making a statement of belief on the whole thing, I would like to see the original family diaries submitted for authentication. Why has that never been done?

Who holds those original documents today?

Take care,

Joe

wood chuck , damn things are everwhere ...

 

[Springfield]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Actually, the symbol was used on family treasure maps long before Kenworthy was born. I have copies of several Family Treasure Maps from the late 1700s up to the mid 1800s. Very similar Tobias Symbols are used on a couple of them in a similar fashion.

I have found time and again that things Kenworthy included in his different books keep proving themselves to be true. I have found many of the monuments in his books, and they are exactly as described. I have seen people say that he altered his pictures so they fit his stories. That is not true. But all the Kenworthy stuff is already in another thread. And yes he did get over a hundred pages of copies of monuments, symbols, signs, etc related to hiding treasure and mines. To answer the next question, I have NEVER seen nor heard of any King's or Jesuit's Code Book. I don't believe such a thing ever existed as a BOOK per se.

Best-Mike

Until seeing the evidence, I wouldn't comment one way or another on the family maps containing the Tobias symbol. I'd love to see copies and acknowledge what you've said, but it may be priviledged information - something I understand and respect.

Kenworthy sold a number of books with some intriguing stuff in them - I own all of them myself. I haven't seen anything he offered that convinces me he possessed proprietary information. I agree with your comment re King's Code, Jesuit Code Book, etc. Anyone who truly believes such material could be available is hopelessly naive, IMHO.

 

[gollum]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Springroll,

Here is just one example of why I firmly believe most of Kenworthy's Interpretations:

Look on page 59 of CK's Spanish Monuments & Trailmarkers to Treasure. You will this same monument in B&W. CK describes what it means.

If you look at my two pics below, you will find one marked up as to its' meaning (CK's meaning as well). Underneath the actual fish, there is one single dot. Behind this dot is a triangular pointer. This points to the dot, and along with the fish means there is water one league away. Since I am currently hunting something in the area, I won't give the exact location, but just a bit over two miles away is a spring.

So, we have a monument deciphered by CK in his book, and when I found it in person, every detail (about this monument) in his book was verified.

Best-Mike

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Mike,

[Roy and Beth,

Here is a little something regarding the Peralta Massacre. I just got off the phone with Bob Corbin. He told me the story about how he got ahold of the journals of both Sgt. William Edwards and Joe Green (the two troopers who found the skeletons). He says that after reading the diaries, there is absolutely no doubt that those skeletons were Mexican, not Indian.

Best-Mike]

Bob is one of the true gentlemen of the LDM Community. He had some really amazing sources, and has more than paid his dues in the mountains. Treasures come in many forms and Bob is one of them. If he told you he believes in his source for that story, you can take that to the bank.

Take care,

Joe

did bob tell you where & what started the Peralta Massacre...?


the massacre started at the Tayopa mine about 60ft in front of the mine there are human remains burn to death like they were cooked in oil or tar ... i would say there are 6 -7 in sight and maybe as many as 12-14 in a 30 yard area ...some were beheaded others burn alive by the looks , one has its mouth open like its screaming ,baked and black as sut ... it looks like they tried to hide in a small ditch area . and were draged out and killed

no proof , . it never happend !
i dont know nothing ,,i have not seen anything , i dont want to talk about it ...latter

Excellent BB - go ahead and post the photos you must have taken of the corpses. I'm sure you can crop out enough area to not give away where it's located. Looking forward to seeing what you found.

I just said we are not sure if they are human remains yet .. and i really dont have time right now .. but when i get back to the site i will go and check them out ,, its interesting enough to take the time and go see if they are human remains .....

With all due respect, where exactly did you say in your original post that you weren't sure if they were human remains or not? You seem to be having a tough time keeping up with your own stories now.

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Springfield,

Here is the story on Kenworthy's King's Code:

Roger Newkirk is a firm believer in Kenworthy. A number of years ago he had a meeting with Chuck in Apache Junction. Kenworthy told him that he had hired Eugene Lyon, you may recognize the name, and that Dr. Lyon was the man who located the King's Code for him.

Both Roger and I tried to confirm that with Dr. Lyon, but neither of us could get in touch with him. Eventually, I got the bright idea to look for his phone number.

I called and spoke to Dr. Lyon personally. His mind and memory were seemingly very clear and precise. Kenworthy had contacted him concerning a shipwreck he was looking for in the Islands.

He told him what he could, and that was their only contact. He knew nothing about a King's Code, and had never actually worked (been hired) for Kenworthy.

Roger is a friend of mine and someone who's word I would take to the bank. He is highly respected and would not be the kind of person to make up such a story. Everyone who knows him would say the same thing.....I am certain.

There is no King's Code, and if there were, it would have been a huge joke to the rest of the world.....in that era.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

lol

you would be correct if i did not have the book and know it is real...lol

the book tells how to read the code and why . it shows the most secerted jesuit code..

hunderds have died to protect this code ..

if you dont think so .. thats your problem .. but as i said i will explain the stones translation at the camp fire ..

i hope you real do under stand how valuable this code book is .. it dose not just open the stones .. it open evrything the rder hide ....lol

yes, the book exist and yes i have it ...

 

[gollum]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

How's this for a face?

Mike

 

[Springfield]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Springroll,

Here is just one example of why I firmly believe most of Kenworthy's Interpretations:

Look on page 59 of CK's Spanish Monuments & Trailmarkers to Treasure. You will this same monument in B&W. CK describes what it means.

If you look at my two pics below, you will find one marked up as to its' meaning (CK's meaning as well). Underneath the actual fish, there is one single dot. Behind this dot is a triangular pointer. This points to the dot, and along with the fish means there is water one league away. Since I am currently hunting something in the area, I won't give the exact location, but just a bit over two miles away is a spring.

So, we have a monument deciphered by CK in his book, and when I found it in person, every detail (about this monument) in his book was verified.

Best-Mike

Gollyum,
Pretty soon we'll be able to find you over at 'Treasure Marks/Signs'. I personally find an overwhelming number of interpretations such as this as strained and contrived. Not all, however - I have a few of my own that I put faith into, so if this fish floats your boat, then keep paddling. My point about Kenworthy is that, yes, he covers interesting ground, but, no, I wouldn't use him as a cornerstone.