Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this picture?

[Springfield]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

How's this for a face?

Mike

I'll see that face and raise you a dog!

 

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[Springfield]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Mike,

This is the arrastra you are speaking of:

I believe it was found by Kraig Roberts, and he showed it to a number of other Dutch Hunters. It dovetails nicely into the Green/Edwards story.....maybe too nicely......

This picture doesn't look like an arrastra to me, but it does fit the journal's description of some sort of crude hammer mill. The long fulcrum may have pivoted on a shorter vertical shaft sticking up from the hole and dropped a heavy rock onto a pile of ore sitting on the floor stones showing to the upper left. Maybe. Below is an arrastra ruin about ten minutes walk from my house. The floor stones were removed for their slick smooth surfaces, but the side walls are intact and the drag stone is still sitting there.

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Mike,

I don't disagree with your conclusions about the picture I posted.....at all.

Roberts called it an arrastra, and those who were with him repeated it. One member of the party found some small pieces of gold by panning out some dirt dug from the post hole.

I don't vouch for any of the theories for that....."arrastra".

Take care,

Joe

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Springfield,

Here is the story on Kenworthy's King's Code:

Roger Newkirk is a firm believer in Kenworthy. A number of years ago he had a meeting with Chuck in Apache Junction. Kenworthy told him that he had hired Eugene Lyon, you may recognize the name, and that Dr. Lyon was the man who located the King's Code for him.

Both Roger and I tried to confirm that with Dr. Lyon, but neither of us could get in touch with him. Eventually, I got the bright idea to look for his phone number.

I called and spoke to Dr. Lyon personally. His mind and memory were seemingly very clear and precise. Kenworthy had contacted him concerning a shipwreck he was looking for in the Islands.

He told him what he could, and that was their only contact. He knew nothing about a King's Code, and had never actually worked (been hired) for Kenworthy.

Roger is a friend of mine and someone who's word I would take to the bank. He is highly respected and would not be the kind of person to make up such a story. Everyone who knows him would say the same thing.....I am certain.

There is no King's Code, and if there were, it would have been a huge joke to the rest of the world.....in that era.

Take care,

Joe

OK

joe

now i need some stright forward talking with you .. you call it the king's code ... why .. ?

what do you think this is the king's code

do you know what it is ?

 

[gollum]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Joe,

That was Springfield not me.

LeafSpring,

Kraig Roberts deal may have been either an arrastra or a fulcrum type stamp mill. For the purpose of this discussion, either is okay because the Spanish used both (fulcrum type is older).

The floor stones in your arrastra were not removed because they were smooth (at least originally). At the end of every mining season, the floorstones were pulled out and the ground underneath was dug down to two or three feet and panned for the fine gold that got pushed between and below the floorstones when being crushed.

I'll bet if you looked around the area, you may find those floorstones in a pile somewhere.

Best-Mike

 

[gollum]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

How's this for a face?

Mike

I'll see that face and raise you a dog!

Lion trumps dog!

Mike

 

[Springfield]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Joe,

That was Springfield not me.

LeafSpring,

Kraig Roberts deal may have been either an arrastra or a fulcrum type stamp mill. For the purpose of this discussion, either is okay because the Spanish used both (fulcrum type is older).

The floor stones in your arrastra were not removed because they were smooth (at least originally). At the end of every mining season, the floorstones were pulled out and the ground underneath was dug down to two or three feet and panned for the fine gold that got pushed between and below the floorstones when being crushed.

I'll bet if you looked around the area, you may find those floorstones in a pile somewhere.

Best-Mike

You're correct about the floorstones - they were typically reset every season, as you say. These particular floorstones have been part of a local rancher's bbq patio for quite a number of years. Another use for them was as headstones back in the day - nice surface for crude R.I.P. carving. And plenty of Apaches providing the R.I.P.'s in Pinos Altos.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Hi Springfield, that is an unusually well preserved arrastre. I agree that as gully posted, they did dig up the floor paving for Precious metal, especially when they used mercury. What he didn't say was that they also pulled the side stones since quite a bit of metal also ended up there between the cracks.

On your drag stones, notice how they were hooked up. They drilled a hole then fashioned a wooden peg to fit, relying upon the wood swelling from the agua to keep it fixed in place.

I am going to steal your photo of that arrastre for my files, so there. !!

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

he has files .. he must work out ...lol

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

my good Friend Joe: Unfortunately the remans of what you called an arrastre in post 148, was NOT an arrastre. It most certainly was a support for a vertical pole, just what ?? but not the arrastre center pole. The surrounding debris and structure clinches this. We have dozens of them here from dfferent periods.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Springfield]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

... I am going to steal your photo of that arrastre for my files, so there. !!

Don Jose de La Mancha

You're welcome to it. There are a bunch of them around here, some used into the 1940's, some ancient with not a lot left of them. One near the highway was reconstructed as a tourist point of interest. I'll see if I can find a picture of that one - shows how it looked when it was operational.

 

[Springfield]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Lion trumps dog!

Mike

King looking to kick some lion a$$.

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

my good Friend Joe: Unfortunately the remans of what you called an arrastre in post 148, was NOT an arrastre. It most certainly was a support for a vertical pole, just what ?? but not the arrastre center pole. The surrounding debris and structure clinches this. We have dozens of them here from dfferent periods.

Don Jose de La Mancha

We have dozens of them here from dfferent periods


lol i would hope so ...lol

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Hi Joe,

I know where the fulcrum stones are located near the massacre grounds, but Roger and I didn't find the rock enclosure (smelter?) you posted a photo of - that was nearby eh? Might have to find out where that was and go back and look around again.

On a side note, I took this photo out in the Superstitions a couple years ago - I think you know where it's located and it looks almost exactly like the one found near the massacre grounds. I was told that a small amount of gold was also panned from deep inside this hole as well.

Paul

 

[Springfield]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

.... On a side note, I took this photo out in the Superstitions a couple years ago - I think you know where it's located and it looks almost exactly like the one found near the massacre grounds. I was told that a small amount of gold was also panned from deep inside this hole as well.....

An indication of nice, simple, free-milling ore. Next to placer, it's a miner's delight. I wonder if these deposits simply pinched out and were abandoned, got chemically complex at deeper levels and were abandoned, or maybe were continuing to pay when covered up? If the Apaches covered up the workings, it's hard to say. Given the circumstancial evidence in and around the massacre grounds, option 3 is a fairly viable possibility, at least for some of the mines.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Sheesh,

This thread travels fast.

I just want to post an old newspaper article - I found it interesting - this shows - documented in the time (not a generation later) just how well
"we" can tell the differences between Spanish, Indian, whites and the like.

I realize that this is an article of the times and not something someone "discovered" 50 years later, but, like someone said - I'd rather hear it from the folks that were actually there. (By the way, what else "jumps out at you?")

Beth

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Hola amigos,

Mike; you emphasized the Apache-fighting expertise of Sgt Edwards, and thus place emphasis on his conclusion of the skeletal remains being Mexicans. What about Lt Hutton? Oscar Hutton viewed the same remains and said they were most likely Indians; Hutton was widely respected in AZ territory for his expertise in Apache warfare. Do you hold that Sgt Edwards expertise was superior to that of Lt Hutton? I have a couple of other questions for you too.

What date do you say Waltz and Weiser went with Peralta to the mine? <A year will do>

What date do you figure was the Peralta massacre? <ditto, a year is close enough>

Thank you in advance, and anyone is welcome to post dates for the two questions posed.
Roy

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

PS I have not been able to find my clipping, but am not the only person who found it;

A newspaper article appeared in the Arizona Daily Herald in 1879 describing an incident that occurred west of Superstition Mountain prior to the closure of the Indian Wars. The incident involved two Mexican brothers who had been attacked by the Apache. One brother was killed and the other escaped. The surviving brother carried out a bag of rich high-grade gold ore. These brothers were named Peralta.

Both Oren Arnold and Barry Storm knew this story and had information about the incident. Many contemporary historians believe this is the origin of the legendary Peralta story and their many gold mines in the Superstition Mountains.

<http://www.superstitionmountain.info/chronicles/2009/08_10_09.html >

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Don Jose,

"my good Friend Joe: Unfortunately the remans of what you called an arrastre in post 148, was NOT an arrastre. It most certainly was a support for a vertical pole, just what ?? but not the arrastre center pole. The surrounding debris and structure clinches this. We have dozens of them here from dfferent periods."

I don't disagree with you at all. In fact, I believe it was created to support the center pole for a Native Amerian lodge/shelter.

It is a protected site, and I tried to warn the people who were nosing around there to avoid it. I have a very good friend who was a site steward and told me about it. The penalties are severe.

As for the real arrastras all over the Southwest, many of them were built by Anglo prospectors. Many Mexican miners were hired by ranchers and miners, and that was especially true in Arizona. They learned and used their methods for mining. It made for a lot of "Spanish" artifacts that were confusing.....to say the least.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Re: Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions? What is wrong with this 'picture'?

Hola amigos,

Mike; you emphasized the Apache-fighting expertise of Sgt Edwards, and thus place emphasis on his conclusion of the skeletal remains being Mexicans. What about Lt Hutton? Oscar Hutton viewed the same remains and said they were most likely Indians; Hutton was widely respected in AZ territory for his expertise in Apache warfare. Do you hold that Sgt Edwards expertise was superior to that of Lt Hutton? I have a couple of other questions for you too.

What date do you say Waltz and Weiser went with Peralta to the mine? <A year will do>

What date do you figure was the Peralta massacre? <ditto, a year is close enough>

Thank you in advance, and anyone is welcome to post dates for the two questions posed.
Roy

Roy,

Once again it seems you failed to read the entire story. The Lt was not present when Edwards found the skeletons. The Lt made his decision from the saddle. He never got off his horse. In Edwards own words, after he found the gold he planned on coming back, so he didn't argue the point with Lt. Hutton. We also don't have anything written by Lt Hutton to give his thoughts or reasoning.

Also remember, its' not just Edwards. We have the Indian Scout Joe Green who came back with Matt Cavaness.

Waltz and Weiser first got to the mine in about 1874-1876.

The massacre happened about 1863-1864

Beth,

I can hardly read your article. What does it have to do with anything we are discussing here? How does looking at skeletons have any relationship to telling the difference between a living Mexican and Indian?

Best-Mike