Looking Outside The Box

[bigscoop]

You dismiss the clue provided by the claim of a mystery woman with too much haste!
Her claim could be that "smoking gun" you always claim is missing-her claim "could" prove that actual deposits were made and that the Beale treasure story could possibly be true.
As for a French connection,one of the early French Huguenot families that settled in Bedford County,Virginia during the early 1700's was D'Yancey.
This mystery woman was not married to T Beale,wife was Celeste Boucher de Grandpre,daughter of Carlos de Grandpre,so what was the nature of her claim?She MUST have had due cause to make that journey to New Orleans to predest her case.

Part of the problem with the Grandpre/Grandpierre, information is that a great deal of it is being withheld from public access as it is in private hands. The other problem with investigating this is that a large portion of the documents dealing with Grandpre were lost at sea along with the ship that was carrying them.

As for the actual court case, Tat has some information on this but here again some of the information simply isn't there. He can tell you more about it.

 

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[bigscoop]

We have many people of interest that we need to explore much further, one of them being this guy, Father Antonio de Sedella of New Orleans. Prior to the insurgencies of 1817 there was a meeting in New Orleans where many of our suspects were in attendence, we even know that at least one US representative was there, but we don't know who this individual was as his name is never offered. During this meeting the occupation of Texas was discussed and a plan was drafted and adopted to occupy that region. Problem was, and here again, there was a difference of opinion on exactly what the goal should be. Now all we really gather from this information is that there was indeed a plan in place to occupy Texas and that some of these relations were strained. We also know that the plan was carried out and that they did occupy the region with an active strategy.

One other thing worth mentioning, this meeting took place during the same period that George Graham was serving as interim Sec. of War. Ironically, in 1818 he is at Galveston Island visiting some of these same people again.

 

[lastleg]

Allow me to explain to scoop the meaning of my last . . . the onus, or burden of proof, lies with the
contender of the claim. I can't make your case because I don't know of what it consists. You speak
of "first bank", "second bank" as though it was general knowledge. Where was this 'first bank" and was
it headquartered in a specific locality? Or was it an earthen bank of some sort? Cleaverly assembled
words with no hint of specificity do not lend themselves to parsement.

Secondly can you describe the significance of the Colorado wedge and present a plausible outline of
how it impacts the Legend? Call the wedge X and the Legend Y if you like.

 

[ECS]

Part of the problem with the Grandpre/Grandpierre, information is that a great deal of it is being withheld from public access as it is in private hands. The other problem with investigating this is that a large portion of the documents dealing with Grandpre were lost at sea along with the ship that was carrying them.

As for the actual court case, Tat has some information on this but here again some of the information simply isn't there. He can tell you more about it.

Withheld from public access? That's convient.Documents lost at sea-also convient.
Tat,would you share the information on the afoementioned court case,such as to who was the mystery woman,her relation to Beale,and WHAT Virginia property did she claim as heir?

 

[bigscoop]

Withheld from public access? That's convient.Documents lost at sea-also convient.

That's what we thought as well. However, as for the lost documents, there are still some out there to be found.

And let me just say this well ahead of the information we've yet to put out here. When we do eventually put it out here, and we eventually will, it is going to cause some people to really give pause and rethink things. "Big money requires a big cause and big money people." And wherever there is a big cause and big money there is always politics. "The smoking guns are cocked and nearly ready to be fired."

 

[tat2guy]

Withheld from public access? That's convient.Documents lost at sea-also convient. Tat,would you share the information on the afoementioned court case,such as to who was the mystery woman,her relation to Beale,and WHAT Virginia property did she claim as heir?

As to the court cases mentioned there is no Virginia properties to find. The cases were over property and belongings in New Orleans for the son, Thomas Beale Jr. Everything in the cases mentioned have huge amounts of debt tied to them. There was nothing to gain, or was there? I've read and re-read the cases and it's frustrating to read to say the least. Also a big frustrating thing is no one can spell her last name correctly, even in the courts.

No the wife, Celeste. The Grandpiere family is impossible to track. The family will not publish the acestory. What is avalible is not great. The interesting thing I found was that Celeste father was being charged with treason I believe. While in Cuba dealing with these allegations he mysteriously dies. Then the trail goes cold.

 

[tat2guy]

Franklin
Have you ever run across the newspaper articles that PV (RIP) refers to in New History of a Mystery about James Purcell or Pursely? Talks about gold he found in 1805 near Santa Fe. Articles published in 1824.

Thanks Tat

 

[tat2guy]

Reb if you've run across that please let me know where I could view it please

 

[ECS]

Meanwhile,looking inside the box...
The Beale "treasure" of gold,silver,and diamonds is an accepted ingredient of the story,but in what form?
Was the gold and silver in ore,or cast into ingots or bars? If cast,where was this done?
The same with the St Louis diamond exchange-raw or uncut,and what was the source? St Louis at that time did not have many jewelry stores,and if the diamonds were from a jewelry store,where is the original source,France,Holland,Etc?
Much of the Beale story inside the box does not hold up to close scrutiny,without bringing in unrelated people and historical events outside the box into the mix.

 

[bigscoop]

Meanwhile,looking inside the box...
The Beale "treasure" of gold,silver,and diamonds is an accepted ingredient of the story,but in what form?
Was the gold and silver in ore,or cast into ingots or bars? If cast,where was this done?
The same with the St Louis diamond exchange-raw or uncut,and what was the source? St Louis at that time did not have many jewelry stores,and if the diamonds were from a jewelry store,where is the original source,France,Holland,Etc?
Much of the Beale story inside the box does not hold up to close scrutiny,without bringing in unrelated people and historical events outside the box into the mix.

"Exactly!" The "original ingredients" don't workout per "the created tale". There is nobody debating or arguing that. However, as we are learning, not guessing, these same ingredients are part of the mix in a very closely related, yet different tale, "even the same people." This is much, much different then the simple drafting of a completely fictional tale around real people. This difference being that in the later you can't really attach any of the referenced people to actual events that closely parallel the original story within the described period. Just hang loose for a while longer as I fully suspect you'll be seeing a few smoking guns posted here in the coming weeks. And "unrelated people" only applies if you're unaware of just how realated they were/are. I promise you, it is coming, and it will all become much clearer and very possible to you then.

 

[tat2guy]

I gave that information to PV. The story of James Pursley or Purcell came from the "Journals of Zabulon Montgomery Pike" written by Elliott Coues (Spelling may be wrong) and was published in 1810 before the TJB Expedition eight years later. TJB read this journal of Pike's mentioning of his half brother finding gold in the Colorado Territory in 1805. I wrote about this in my pamphlet I wrote on the Mystery of the Beale Treasure in 1990 and it was on my CD book written in 2000.[/QUOTE

Ok thanks Franklin. PV mention 1824 newspaper article. I go look for your pamphlet and the newspaper stuff

Thanks again Tat

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Reb if you've run across that please let me know where I could view it please

OK; NEVER seen it...

 

[tat2guy]

OK; NEVER seen it...

Thanks I need to find Franklins 1990 pamphlet

 

[bigscoop]

I believe the newspaper article you are refering to was in the Missouri Intelligenicer Newspaper telling of James Pursley being in town (St. Louis). It mentions that James Pursley wrote an article in the newspaper about a tribe of Indians on the Platte River or on the Plains and most likely was the 5,000 Indians that James Pursley traveled with on the Platte River when he found the gold in 1805. There was also an article in 1826 about 30 or 35 white men being killed on the Platte River. Then you if you read the Journals of Jacob Fowler you will find mentioned about a renegade Indian that was scalped by the Indians helping the 30 or 35 white men and he asked his Chief if he could take a band of Indians up to the Platte River two days journey away and kill the white men? The Chief told him no that the white men were too friendly meaning they give the Indians a lot of gifts. Well I believe this renegade Indian and his band of Indians went back up to the Platte and killed the white men that were later wrote about in the 1826 newspaper article. But anyway it's been a heck of a ride trying to figure the mystery out whether the treasure is found or not.

And that's it, Franklin. All the things we learn on the journey.

 

[ECS]

... "The smoking guns are cocked and nearly ready to be fired."

Well,you gonna skin that smokewagon or whistle the French national anthem?

 

[bigscoop]

Well,you gonna skin that smokewagon or whistle the French national anthem?

You're still missing the big picture. You have "French" lodged into your chamber when the actual picture is much larger then that. At the time of the Louisiana Purchase "the entire world" was struggling with the new global position/order that was under way. Until you research this and understand it you'll never grasp hold of what's being put forth. And I mean really research it, not just Wikipedia. First you have to understand why, and how, we got the Louisiana Territory in the first place. There was a lot more to it then simply, "Hey, I think this is a darn good real estate buy." There are specific reasons why this territory was not sold back to Spain as previously promised in that secret treaty. The sale of that territory to the US didn't just benefit Napoleon's need of money and the US's need to expand its borders. So what I'm telling you is this, the US entered into a limited alliance with Napoleon at the time of that purchase. This is why Monroe was sent back to France in a hurry to take over that negotiations for that purchase. Believe what you like, but it all began here.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Meanwhile,looking inside the box...
The Beale "treasure" of gold,silver,and diamonds is an accepted ingredient of the story,but in what form?
Was the gold and silver in ore,or cast into ingots or bars? If cast,where was this done?
The same with the St Louis diamond exchange-raw or uncut,and what was the source? St Louis at that time did not have many jewelry stores,and if the diamonds were from a jewelry store,where is the original source,France,Holland,Etc?
Much of the Beale story inside the box does not hold up to close scrutiny,without bringing in unrelated people and historical events outside the box into the mix.

In the BEALE PAPERS, TJB in the "era" of "story"... wrote that he left behind men to MINE the ORE; MUST have been RAW Gold & Silver. SOME of it was USED to buy JEWELRY in St Louis, MO (PROBABLY from the FRENCH "colony" there... "connected" to Jean Lafitte). This Jewelry "lightened" his "load", returning to Bedford County, Va. OR! DID IT...? !!!

 

[bigscoop]

The gold and silver was smelted into bars and carried in the false bottoms of the wagons. If you read the Long Expedition when two of his men climbed Pike's Peak (known as James' Peak at the time), you will find that they looked off to the NW and saw what they believed was Indian Campfires. But if you notice the time of year it was most likely the smoke from a fire in the kiln of TJB and his men.

No way could they have mined and smelted this much gold and silver. The amount of those two deposits greater then some of the most heavily mined & slaved mines in the world at the time. This is just one more reason why the adventure portion of the tale can't be true. I don't think you realize just how much ore it would require to produce this much gold and silver, even very high grade ore. Clearly you're talking tons upon tons of ore from what would require a hard rock mining operation. Nowhere near possible. And that is a fact. Just saying.......

 

[ECS]

The gold and silver was smelted into bars and carried in the false bottoms of the wagons. If you read the Long Expedition when two of his men climbed Pike's Peak (known as James' Peak at the time), you will find that they looked off to the NW and saw what they believed was Indian Campfires. But if you notice the time of year it was most likely the smoke from a fire in the kiln of TJB and his men.

Is the construction of a kiln mentioned in "BEALE" 1885?
"Campfires" would mean several kilns-where did the Beale Party get the materials to build a kiln?

 

[bigscoop]

"IF" the amount of the deposits are accurate, and "if" this was purified metal, then this had to be either A) "accumulated" wealth over a long period of time, or B) wealth acquire from an extremely large and rich operation.

Ore would have to be mined, crushed, smelted & separated, etc. Just way too much gold and silver in the BP for thirty men to have achieved even with the aid of some Indians.