Looking Outside The Box

[Rebel - KGC]

All through the effected period, even prior and afterwards, there were two active factions at work in Bedford County, Virginia, this being the same indifference that brought about the duel between Risque and Beale. This same indifference is what carried Beale to New Orleans and the mentioned party of adventurers to the west. It was not a simple hunting trip.

When this mystery was first being discussed in these forums several years ago most were of the opinion that very few Americans had been out west and that Spain ruled the region with an all-seeing eye and iron fist. Today we know that this earlier perception is entirely false and that there were many, many Americans and parties from the east who had ventured into the region after the Louisiana Purchase. "A lot" of folks from the Bedford County region had taken active part in all of this.

Eh...? PROOF...?

 

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[bigscoop]

The only reason those people were in Bedford County, Virginia because Fincastle was the gateway to the West. It had nothing to do with the people of Bedford County. At one time Bedford County extended and included all of the State of Kentucky and that my friend will take you to the mighty Mississippi. Stephen Long had a brother killed in Texas, yes. The secret of the people involved in the BT mystery will be found in the surrounding counties of Amherst, Bath, Bedford and a few other surrounding counties. You do not have to search all of our countries history from Louisiana to California.

I suppose I should have been more specific then just saying, "Bedford County". However, you are correct in referencing KY and the mighty Mississippi. Also, St. Louis was no stranger to some of these men, nor was Santa Fe.

And, unfortunately, you do have to research the opposing side of the issues in order to draw a more accurate scope on "exactly" what may have really been going on. Obviously, these men didn't just go out west and mine the detailed wealth, the total amount of this wealth being more then a year's production from some of most heavily pursued/labored mines in the world. This fact then begs the question, "If these deposits were real then where else might they have really come from?"

And if these deposits were real, and if they did indeed come from west to east, then who in the west would have had this type of wealth? And why was it delivered in near perfect timing with the Adam's Onis Treaty signing & ratification dates?

Texas went to Spain. Laffite was in Spanish territory, so why did the US assume the responsibility of removing him? There are two times that Laffite references wealth while at Galveston Island, both references are made in near perfect order with the signing and ratification of the treaty and of both deposits. Between the period 1818-1819 he makes mention of $476'000 that his commune had put away. Where did it go? Why does this last date (1819) coincide with the first deposit? He only makes mention of a secret shipment of wealth again as he is preparing to depart Galveston Island, this also being in perfect timing with the second deposit. "The flame is worth the candle." Problem was, who, in the end, was going to get the candle? And there is more. A great deal more.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

I suppose I should have been more specific then just saying, "Bedford County". However, you are correct in referencing KY and the mighty Mississippi. Also, St. Louis was no stranger to some of these men, nor was Santa Fe.

And, unfortunately, you do have to research the opposing side of the issues in order to draw a more accurate scope on "exactly" what may have really been going on. Obviously, these men didn't just go out west and mine the detailed wealth, the total amount of this wealth being more then a year's production from some of most heavily pursued/labored mines in the world. This fact then begs the question, "If these deposits were real then where else might they have really come from?"

And if these deposits were real, and if they did indeed come from west to east, then who in the west would have had this type of wealth? And why was it delivered in near perfect timing with the Adam's Onis Treaty signing & ratification dates?

Texas went to Spain. Laffite was in Spanish territory, so why did the US assume the responsibility of removing him? There are two times that Laffite references wealth while at Galveston Island, both references are made in near perfect order with the signing and ratification of the treaty and of both deposits. Between the period 1818-1819 he makes mention of $476'000 that his commune had put away. Where did it go? Why does this last date (1819) coincide with the first deposit? He only makes mention of a secret shipment of wealth again as he is preparing to depart Galveston Island, this also being in perfect timing with the second deposit. "The flame is worth the candle." Problem was, who, in the end, was going to get the candle? And there is more. A great deal more.

The GAME...? !!! The CANDLE would burn out to NOTHING! Show the MORE!

 

[tat2guy]

I expected a less feeble attempt at sowing seeds of anti-texian sentiments. Ben was thrown in more jails than you can count. BTW he was from KY not VA.

Your right but his father was from Bedford. Moses the father joined the militia in Bedford. I'm tracing some others that seem to follow this same path. There's some complex details with some of these people but extremely interesting to learn. We will see where it goes but it's exciting at this point.

 

[bigscoop]

Before we all get too far outside the box with Adams-Onis,small area in Colorado,etc:
Thomas Beale married Celeste Boucher de Grandpre in New Orleans,but after Beale died in New Orleans,Sept 1820,why Chlory Delancy/Chloe Dalancy/Delaney travel from Botetourt County,Virginia and appear at court as the righful heir of Beale's Virginia properties.
Who was this woman,and what relation did she have to Beale as heir,and what was the outcome of her claim.

As I recall, my question in this matter was, "Why go to court to win debt?" If memory serves me correct, there was debt attached to everything.

 

[bigscoop]

I would like some proof to this outrageous statement sir. Please name some of these explorers who
pranced around the Spanish colonies unmolested. Whole cloth testimonies if you will.

Explorers? You mean in the classic sense, explorers? Or do you mean traders, insurgents, privateers, etc. Just as in Florida Spain couldn't control it's borders in the west any better then it could control them in Florida. This is exactly why Wilkinson agreed to the neutral zone. This is also exactly why Spain experienced an insurgent problem in the first place. Do you really think these insurgents, traders, privateers, went directly to locations completely unknown to them? How's that work? "Well, we'll go this way, and we'll follow that stream that may not even go that way until we run into another landmark of some type that is likely to take us somewhere else. And we'll just keep doing this until we run into our pre-planned destination."

If Spain ruled the region with that all-seeing eye and iron fist that so many like to romance about then why didn't they run out de Aury? Why didn't they run out Laffite? Why did they continue to allow so many foreign ships in and out of Galveston Bay? Why did they continue to let known revolutionaries and insurgents sit in that bay?

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Did they...?

 

[bigscoop]

If Spain had such an iron first of control over the region then someone needed to tell De Onis because he sure complained to the US quite a bit about the Galveston region and all the crossing over. If things were as "iron-fisted" as so many like to believe then Spain obviously went into Galveston bay and quickly routed those pesky squatters and the settlements at Galveston Bay never happened. And yet they did happen.

Here again, everyone wants to look to the northwest, per the described Beale adventure, nobody wants to look in the southwest where the candle was burning hot.

 

[ECS]

The GAME...? !!! The CANDLE would burn out to NOTHING! Show the MORE!

Do you have a feeling that we will be enlightened with a French connection and tales from the 5th generation?

 

[ECS]

As I recall, my question in this matter was, "Why go to court to win debt?" If memory serves me correct, there was debt attached to everything.

There was debt attatched to Beale's New Orleans holdings,but was there a record of debt on his Virginia holdings?
S,who was this mystery woman,Chlory Delancy/Chloe Dalancy/Delaney who traveled from Botetourt County,Virginia to New Orleans as hier of Beale's Virginia property?
Considering the length,hazards, and time of that journey during those times,it is not very likely she made the journey to claim "debt"-and her claim predates the 1885 Beale Papers by at least 50 years.
While trying to force the facts of Adams-Onis to fit the Beale adventure tale,an obvious connection is being overlooked and dismissed.

 

[bigscoop]

There was debt attatched to Beale's New Orleans holdings,but was there a record of debt on his Virginia holdings?
S,who was this mystery woman,Chlory Delancy/Chloe Dalancy/Delaney who traveled from Botetourt County,Virginia to New Orleans as hier of Beale's Virginia property?
Considering the length,hazards, and time of that journey during those times,it is not very likely she made the journey to claim "debt"-and her claim predates the 1885 Beale Papers by at least 50 years.
While trying to force the facts of Adams-Onis to fit the Beale adventure tale,an obvious connection is being overlooked and dismissed.

First of all, nobody is forcing anything. It is much, much easier to just say, "He used other existing works to create his writing" then it is to actually dig into so many areas that require endless hours and endless avenues of research. And since you are 100% committed to your whole "fiction based on other works theory" then why are you even wasting your time entertaining these other possibilities? as for the outcome of the suit you inquire about, I'm sure that information can be collected if someone was so inclined to dedicate the time to look for it. But if the story was fiction in the first place, then why even bother?

 

[bigscoop]

1817 - the year the insurgencies were formed
1819 - treaty signing
1821 - treaty ratification
1822 - Mexico is officially recognized (New holder of Texas)
1832 - Convention of 1832
1845 - Annexation of Texas
1862 - The Border | 1862 The Battle of Puebla and Cinco de Mayo
1882 - This date I leave to you. Like all the others it's in the pamphlet if you look for it.

 

[lastleg]

Tat, as for encouraging Virginians to go West in 1817 Wiki says in 1818 Ben learned of trading
opportunities with Comanche Indians on the upper Red River. First off what did Ben have to trade
with? And what did the Comanches have to trade? The upper Red River was part of Caohuila y
Tejas and rose in the Panhandle of what is now Texas. The only substance I have been able to trace
Ben could have used to trade was Mexican silver. But what would he get in return? Buffalo hides?

Is this what Ben took to Orleans in 1819? How did he get there? Floated the Red to Atchafalaya River
carrying the hides? That must have been quite a feat, mosquitos, flies and all. I bet he was ready for
a stiff drink when he arrived. That must have led to encountering Steven Long and the mysterious
Jose' Felix Trespalacios who were plotting to aid revolutionaries against Spain.

Now let's get back to Mexican silver. Wiki also says from 1800-1820 Ben was a partner in a silver mining
operation in Nuevo Leon. The problem with that is Ben served in War of 1812 for the 8th Regiment of
Kentucky Militia. How did the Frankfort KY b.1788 native work a mine in Mexico and serve in War of 1812
and trade with the Comanches over a thousand miles from the Appalachians? Remember he was in the
Panhandle before meeting Long at Orleans. Nuevo Leon, Mexico is well over a thousand miles from the
Panhandle. If he was mining silver in the interior of Mexico how could he have even known of Jackson's
War and enlisted as a private?

Assuming the Long party sailed to Puerto Vallarta rather than overland their plot was discovered and the
whole lot were thrown in jail and sentenced to die by firing squad at Ciudad de Mexico. Of course we know
Ben Milam got off after a couple years in the slammer.


Now then, what do you have on Ben I have missed?

 

[bigscoop]

Milam and his friends were sent to Mexico City where Agustín de Iturbide ordered all of them shot. Milam and the others were imprisoned until the fall of 1822, when they were released, thanks to the influence of Joel R. Poinsett, U.S. Commissioner of Observation to Mexico. Poinsett secured their freedom and, with the exception of Milam, all were returned to the United States on the sloop-of-war USS John Adams (1799).

Who were these others?

 

[lastleg]

Well I can only assume they were the potential revolutionaries betrayed at Puerto Vallarta by Felix.
Milam accused him of murdering Long. Also that Felix played both sides as is the custom of the
leaders of Mexico. Santa Anna was a prime representative of double-dealing, pretending to fight
for all Mexico but taking the first opportunity to reverse sides if the other seemed to be winning.

 

[bigscoop]

Just for entertainment purposes let's consider something for a moment. Let's say the two deposits were indeed real and they did take place on the dates provided. And let's also assume that these deposits were, in some way, connected to the struggle for Texas. Question here is simply this, where did these mysteriously huge deposits come from?

Did Spain secretly buy Texas? Sounds off the track but maybe not given the shape of the second bank. Did Spain possibly agree to a secret loan to prop up the second bank in exchange for Texas? Sounds unlikely since Spain was also in financial trouble. Obviously, neither one of these possible solutions seem very reasonable.

In 1818, and just in time with the treaty signing the American Banker and past interim Secretary of War George Graham, in the company of a party, is sent to Galveston Island where he spends nearly two weeks. During this time he spends a great deal of time with Lallemand and Laffitte. This at a time when the Second Bank of America is in serious financial trouble and staring at a 5 million dollar spoliation promise in the face of a much desired treaty. Lallemand leaves with Graham never to return despite his promise to the opposite. Almost exactly one year later the first deposit takes place from west to east. And when Laffitte departs in 1821 upon the ratification of said treaty the second deposit is made. Attached to both of these deposits is a ten-year term. Have you really considered the possibilities here?

 

[lastleg]

I believe the onus of the Onis Treaty is all yours.

 

[tat2guy]

Tat, as for encouraging Virginians to go West in 1817 Wiki says in 1818 Ben learned of trading opportunities with Comanche Indians on the upper Red River. First off what did Ben have to trade with? And what did the Comanches have to trade? The upper Red River was part of Caohuila y Tejas and rose in the Panhandle of what is now Texas. The only substance I have been able to trace Ben could have used to trade was Mexican silver. But what would he get in return? Buffalo hides? Is this what Ben took to Orleans in 1819? How did he get there? Floated the Red to Atchafalaya River carrying the hides? That must have been quite a feat, mosquitos, flies and all. I bet he was ready for a stiff drink when he arrived. That must have led to encountering Steven Long and the mysterious Jose' Felix Trespalacios who were plotting to aid revolutionaries against Spain. Now let's get back to Mexican silver. Wiki also says from 1800-1820 Ben was a partner in a silver mining operation in Nuevo Leon. The problem with that is Ben served in War of 1812 for the 8th Regiment of Kentucky Militia. How did the Frankfort KY b.1788 native work a mine in Mexico and serve in War of 1812 and trade with the Comanches over a thousand miles from the Appalachians? Remember he was in the Panhandle before meeting Long at Orleans. Nuevo Leon, Mexico is well over a thousand miles from the Panhandle. If he was mining silver in the interior of Mexico how could he have even known of Jackson's War and enlisted as a private? Assuming the Long party sailed to Puerto Vallarta rather than overland their plot was discovered and the whole lot were thrown in jail and sentenced to die by firing squad at Ciudad de Mexico. Of course we know Ben Milam got off after a couple years in the slammer. Now then, what do you have on Ben I have missed?

Milam was a merchant. He had a partner in the mine so I highly doubt he ever mined it. For example Stephen Girard has a coal mine in Pa, I'd bet a lot of money he never mined it. So I believe that these guys were nothing more than the financial backing. Also a researcher must be able to look beyond wiki to find the full scope of info needed to properly draw a conclusion with this type of history.

HH Tat

 

[bigscoop]

I believe the onus of the Onis Treaty is all yours.

All I know is this; in the course of this continued dialog you have been subject to questions and facts to which you have no counter for. Circumstances have been brought to your attention that you cannot explain away other then by similar escape routes like the one you have posted here. Each time you do this you are actually making the suggested theory stronger, which is exactly why I post in these forums, the true strength of any theory being displayed when it can silence those much desired, and required, devil's advocates, i.e., "when the knowledgeable can no longer present factual arguments to the opposite then the suggested possibilities become even more suspect."

In your reply to Tat in regards to Milam you failed to account for the many possible circumstances of "partner" as there are many investors in partnerships who have never even been to the locations they're investing in. In fact, during the period in question this was quite common, even with very large scale partnerships. Just some FYI for you to maul over.

 

[ECS]

CHLORY DELANCY/CHLOE DALANCY/DELANEY

... as for the outcome of the suit you inquire about, I'm sure that information can be collected if someone was so inclined to dedicate the time to look for it. But if the story was fiction in the first place, then why even bother?

You dismiss the clue provided by the claim of a mystery woman with too much haste!
Her claim could be that "smoking gun" you always claim is missing-her claim "could" prove that actual deposits were made and that the Beale treasure story could possibly be true.
As for a French connection,one of the early French Huguenot families that settled in Bedford County,Virginia during the early 1700's was D'Yancey.
This mystery woman was not married to T Beale,wife was Celeste Boucher de Grandpre,daughter of Carlos de Grandpre,so what was the nature of her claim?She MUST have had due cause to make that journey to New Orleans to present her case.