Legend of the Stone Maps

[sdcfia]

sdcfia,

What Father Kino or others "may" have done does not change accepted history. The only thing that will change what has been written, is hard evidence. Deducer will need to quote his Bolton source, and I have doubts that will change the history books.

Father Kino and Juan Mateo Manje's diaries are the best evidence available to us. That remains true whether they are fact or fiction. Neither man mentions traveling to the Moqui villages, although they mention the Moqui many times.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

If you can control the "evidence", then you can control the "history" - either by inclusion or omission. You're right - "accepted history" is just a puppet show that constantly changes direction in the wind.

 

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[cactusjumper]

The accuracy of said map isn't the subject as much as the choice of the name, Rio Azul, given to what eventually was named the Verde river.



The quote regarding Fr. Campos going as far north as the White Mountains of Arizona isn't from Bolton, it's from The Presidio and Militia on the Northern Frontier of New Spain: 1570-1700 edited by Thomas H. Naylor, Charles W. Polzer, page 627.



If I'm not wrong, it is approximately 30 miles, as the crow flies, from the Gila river to the Salt River. So any of those "mountaintops" would be well within the area "north of the Gila," correct?

Do you also have any idea how he knew to name it the Salt river?

deducer,

Personally, I doubt Father Kino called the Salt River by that name. He mislabeled it the Rio Azul on his 1702 map. On page 285-286, note 3, Bolton states: "He (Kino) refers to San Luis Bacapa (Moicaqui), now Quitobac. Here Kino was in error.....What is evidently Salt River is called Rio Azul......". That seemed obvious to me, apparently less obvious to you.

As for mountain tops where you can see the Salt, as well as the Gila, I would suggest you look at the area where the two rivers join. From a peak in the Estrrella Mountain Regional Park, you would be around 4-milles south of the Gila and the Salt. Both rivers can be plainly seen, as well as the Agua Fria River.

Farther to the southeast, there are a number of peaks around Butterfly Mountain where you are south of the Gila as well as the Salt. Those peaks have unimpeded views of both rivers. Distance is nine-miles or less.

I did not realize we were discussing Father Campos.

IMHO, the accurate labeling of rivers on Father Kino's maps is more than important in this debate/conversation.

sdcfia,

[You're right - "accepted history" is just a puppet show that constantly changes direction in the wind.]

I don't believe that is what I wrote at all. "It does not change direction in the wind" but requires "hard evidence", sometimes supplied by the turn of a spade. If not, someone like deducer could write his own version of history.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cw0909]

thanks Eldo, do you know when this stone was done, or maybe
when img was taken

I was asked two posts above to reference these facts.....i grabbed the first one I found off the internet....

big mistake....as if I haven't shown a ton off by now......let me try to reiterate the point I was making....

CW0909 asked for the other copies, I made one mistake and get the lashings.....LOL

Anyways there are two copies to look at online, and you will have to search for them, but everyone here can attest to the fact that when the clay versions were made they were clearly altered a bit to remove certain marks, while adjusting others to carry their own version ....

IE specifically the mark in reference in so many other's posts that looked like Weaver's Needle.

The reality is that the object in question from the original, takes the shape of rivers that cross over that border where the heart is inlaid, and the format of the clay replications were more similar to the Needle, having been produced after the succession of explorers had made their attempts to identify that mark as the needle, influencing the Mining Company to simply accept that as a clue and reference point.

Its obvious as to the fact that the rivers and streams are drawn there in the map stone, and that they continue into the heart stone area,

Dont think they were carved to then evolve into the Needle....seems out of context.

Sorry for the confusion, but both sets of stones can be found, and the previous thread here in this subject topic can be found as well.

OOPS

View attachment 1196642 Clay Version Made to look like Miners Needle

View attachment 1196643Same Version in a Better Light Showing the Miners Needle-looking marks are more "obvious" when seperated from the clay version

View attachment 1196644 Here they are doctored to exclude the needle altogether

 

[deducer]

Personally, I doubt Father Kino called the Salt River by that name. He mislabeled it the Rio Azul on his 1702 map. On page 285-286, note 3, Bolton states: "He (Kino) refers to San Luis Bacapa (Moicaqui), now Quitobac. Here Kino was in error.....What is evidently Salt River is called Rio Azul......". That seemed obvious to me, apparently less obvious to you.

How exactly did he "mislabel" it since the name "Salt River" only came around later on? As an addendum, even if his 1702 map may contain some errors, that doesn't mean that he didn't continually revise his geographic knowledge in the last 9 years of his life.

Regardless of the name, looks like he somehow was able to, as his drawing of the Salt River shows on the 1702 map, infer that the river is the confluence of two smaller rivers, separated by mountains, what later came to be known as the Black and the White Rivers, and eventually joined by two other big tributaries, the Verde and the Aqua Fria.

Seems accurate doesn't it?

As for mountain tops where you can see the Salt, as well as the Gila, I would suggest you look at the area where the two rivers join. From a peak in the Estrrella Mountain Regional Park, you would be around 4-milles south of the Gila and the Salt. Both rivers can be plainly seen, as well as the Agua Fria River.

Farther to the southeast, there are a number of peaks around Butterfly Mountain where you are south of the Gila as well as the Salt. Those peaks have unimpeded views of both rivers. Distance is nine-miles or less.

All good and well except for the fact that at this point, the salinity of the river is virtually nonexistent. Whoever gave the river its current name was way upriver, somewhere near the salt banks after the confluence of the Black and White Rivers where the salinity is at its highest.

I don't believe that is what I wrote at all. "It does not change direction in the wind" but requires "hard evidence", sometimes supplied by the turn of a spade. If not, someone like deducer could write his own version of history.

I have no doubt that the history in relation to this topic will be completely rewritten, but it won't be by me. I can only hope to have the privilege of being a witness to it.

 

[gollum]

Joe,

Not by you, but you seem to think that Kino did not have any secrets. That his life was as open as most of the history books say it was. Do you happen to have copies of Kino's Handwritten Diary?

Because if you did........ you might catch something very interesting. My friend in Tumacacori sent me this some years ago:



See anything interesting on that page?

Maybe.......... a little closer.........



See that little thing there, in the middle? Looks eerily similar to the Jesuit Symbol on that 60% gold bar from Tucson:



Looks like a cross between that and the Swedish Steel Symbol.

But back on the ranch, why would Father Kino insert a secret symbol into his diary?

Mike

 

[Backwoodsbob]

Mike is that all you saw. It's giving you more than that.

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[wrmickel1]

In lighten me backwoods, what else is on there

Wrmickel1

 

[cactusjumper]

How exactly did he "mislabel" it since the name "Salt River" only came around later on? As an addendum, even if his 1702 map may contain some errors, that doesn't mean that he didn't continually revise his geographic knowledge in the last 9 years of his life.

Regardless of the name, looks like he somehow was able to, as his drawing of the Salt River shows on the 1702 map, infer that the river is the confluence of two smaller rivers, separated by mountains, what later came to be known as the Black and the White Rivers, and eventually joined by two other big tributaries, the Verde and the Aqua Fria.

Seems accurate doesn't it?



All good and well except for the fact that at this point, the salinity of the river is virtually nonexistent. Whoever gave the river its current name was way upriver, somewhere near the salt banks after the confluence of the Black and White Rivers where the salinity is at its highest.




I have no doubt that the history in relation to this topic will be completely rewritten, but it won't be by me. I can only hope to have the privilege of being a witness to it.

deducer,

Here is the passage that explains how Father Kino applies Rio Salado to the Salt River:

"Going forward next day, they climbed a pass through Sierra la Estrella, from the top of which their eyes met a welcome view. There before them was the familiar valley of the Gila, and the guides pointed out to them Rio Verde and Rio Salado, which, united, flowed west and joined the Gila a short distance north of where they stood."

I believe the Salt River was named by Father Kino's guides. He translated it to Rio Salado.

Further on, we get this:

At the suggestion of Father Gilg, Kino called the Gila the River of the Apostles, whose names he had sprinkled liberally along its banks. To complete the Twelve he now suggested that the rivers which we call Salado, Verde, Santa Cruz and San Pedro might be named for the four Evangelists, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John--in Spanish form of course."

From pg. 422 of "Rim Of Christendom" by Herbert Eugene Bolton.

These passages are from the translation of of the diary of Father Kino.

I consider them to be historical evidence, but others may have a different opinion. Not too many years ago, we had "historical" evidence about the source of the Stone Maps. That attempt to change history is falling on hard times.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Backwoodsbob]

When you look at the letter. You see what appears to be ink bleeding though from the other side of the page. He has the numbers that I look for when looking for the Jesuits influence on them. In the writing he mixes them into the letter. Some of the letters are numbers.

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[sdcfia]

View attachment 1197532

See that little thing there, in the middle? Looks eerily similar to the Jesuit Symbol on that 60% gold bar from Tucson:

View attachment 1197533

Looks like a cross between that and the Swedish Steel Symbol.

But back on the ranch, why would Father Kino insert a secret symbol into his diary?

Mike

I won't comment on the gold bar, but the diary symbol looks more like a combination of two alchemical symbols - steel, as you mentioned, and cinnebar, a mercury ore. Mercury - that's interesting. From a French document:

 

[Backwoodsbob]

What's the next page(106) look like?

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[deducer]

deducer,

Here is the passage that explains how Father Kino applies Rio Salado to the Salt River:

"Going forward next day, they climbed a pass through Sierra la Estrella, from the top of which their eyes met a welcome view. There before them was the familiar valley of the Gila, and the guides pointed out to them Rio Verde and Rio Salado, which, united, flowed west and joined the Gila a short distance north of where they stood."

I believe the Salt River was named by Father Kino's guides. He translated it to Rio Salado.

Further on, we get this:

At the suggestion of Father Gilg, Kino called the Gila the River of the Apostles, whose names he had sprinkled liberally along its banks. To complete the Twelve he now suggested that the rivers which we call Salado, Verde, Santa Cruz and San Pedro might be named for the four Evangelists, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John--in Spanish form of course."

From pg. 422 of "Rim Of Christendom" by Herbert Eugene Bolton.

These passages are from the translation of of the diary of Father Kino.

I consider them to be historical evidence, but others may have a different opinion. Not too many years ago, we had "historical" evidence about the source of the Stone Maps. That attempt to change history is falling on hard times.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

The passage you quoted is not from Kino's diary, but Bolton's own writing and how he interpreted Kino's diary. You also left out a passage in the same paragraph that was actually from the diary in describing the Rio Verde (but not the Rio Salado):

"They say they call it the Rio Verde because it flows through a sierra of many veins of green, blue, and otherwise colored stones. We do not know whether or not this is the Sierra Azul where, according to tradition, there has been seen an infinity of gold and silver. To which Bolton added "Here is another tale to investigate."

Why did Bolton say that?

Nothing in that passage or anywhere else suggests that Kino got the name Rio Salado from the guides.

And as Mike points out, not everything in Kino's actual diary was translated or investigated by Bolton (or Polzer).

 

[cactusjumper]

The passage you quoted is not from Kino's diary, but Bolton's own writing and how he interpreted Kino's diary. You also left out a passage in the same paragraph that was actually from the diary in describing the Rio Verde (but not the Rio Salado):

"They say they call it the Rio Verde because it flows through a sierra of many veins of green, blue, and otherwise colored stones. We do not know whether or not this is the Sierra Azul where, according to tradition, there has been seen an infinity of gold and silver. To which Bolton added "Here is another tale to investigate."

Why did Bolton say that?

Nothing in that passage or anywhere else suggests that Kino got the name Rio Salado from the guides.

And as Mike points out, not everything in Kino's actual diary was translated or investigated by Bolton (or Polzer).

deducer,

No doubt you and Mike are correct, and Bolton, Burris, Polzer, Kino and all the other historians are liars or just confused. That seems reasonable considering your backgrounds and research skills. However, I will stick with the historians for now.

Hopefully you or Mike will write or publish a book soon, and straighten them all out.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[gollum]

deducer,

No doubt you and Mike are correct, and Bolton, Burris, Polzer, Kino and all the other historians are liars or just confused. That seems reasonable considering your backgrounds and research skills. However, I will stick with the historians for now.

Hopefully you or Mike will write or publish a book soon, and straighten them all out.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

WOW Joe,

You have a problem with my research skills? Instead of just answering my questions, you decide to insult me?

Mike

 

[gollum]

I won't comment on the gold bar, but the diary symbol looks more like a combination of two alchemical symbols - steel, as you mentioned, and cinnebar, a mercury ore. Mercury - that's interesting. From a French document:

View attachment 1197588

....or like this map index from a period map of Guanajuato:



Mike

 

[sdcfia]

deducer,

No doubt you and Mike are correct, and Bolton, Burris, Polzer, Kino and all the other historians are liars or just confused. That seems reasonable considering your backgrounds and research skills. However, I will stick with the historians for now.

Hopefully you or Mike will write or publish a book soon, and straighten them all out.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Some historians are confused/misinformed, some are liars/propagandists, some are dead-on accurate, and reliable, and all have their agenda, whether they realize it themselves or not. That's what history is, particularly when it's reconstructed from limited reports and distant events. Given enough time or an intellectual regime change, history changes - sometimes by digging up new facts as you mentioned earlier, and sometimes for political reasons. It's all hearsay, even Kino's diary. If he had bigtime secrets, why would you expect to know about them?

 

[cactusjumper]

WOW Joe,

You have a problem with my research skills? Instead of just answering my questions, you decide to insult me?

Mike

Mike,

While it may have been a tongue in cheek comment, it was not an insult to compare your research skills with, say Bolton's. As soon as I know that both you and deducer have accessed the same files and documents as Bolton and other historians have dug through, and then publish your findings, I will give them the same consideration as the others.

Sorry you took it that way, but common sense tells me to hold any praise.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

........OF COURSE THEY HAD SECRETS! HAHAHA

Do I need to remind anybody about Jesuit Ecclesiastical Precepts?

#17: Inasmuch as possible Ours will avoid writing letters to Ours complaining about the laity. If a letter has to be written, let it be so done that, even if lost or opened, the person about whom the letter was written could not understand it. The same caution is to be observed when writing the Provincial about THINGS THAT MUST BE DEALT WITH SECRETLY BECAUSE EXPERIENCE HAS SHOWN THE CONTRARY PRACTICE CREATES GRAVE INCONVENIENCES."

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Some historians are confused/misinformed, some are liars/propagandists, some are dead-on accurate, and reliable, and all have their agenda, whether they realize it themselves or not. That's what history is, particularly when it's reconstructed from limited reports and distant events. Given enough time or an intellectual regime change, history changes - sometimes by digging up new facts as you mentioned earlier, and sometimes for political reasons. It's all hearsay, even Kino's diary. If he had bigtime secrets, why would you expect to know about them?

sdfica,

I don't expect to know about anything the Jesuits may have been hiding. By the same token, you should probably not assume to know details about those secrets, but that's your decision.

I am more than aware of the foibles of men, and in the final analyses the Jesuits priests were just men. The question is:
How do you decide which historians are "confused/misinformed, some are liars/propagandists, some are dead-on accurate, and reliable, and all have their agenda".

For me, the best evidence is what is now available from the historians. Should new evidence be found, I, like everyone else, will have to adjust my conclusions. I used to believe in "Jesuit Treasure" but have researched the question for years and found it questionable. Not impossible, but questionable. I believe the Jesuit's broke the rules in some cases and did engage in mining, just not extensively.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[sdcfia]

sdfica,

I don't expect to know about anything the Jesuits may have been hiding. By the same token, you should probably not assume to know details about those secrets, but that's your decision.

I am more than aware of the foibles of men, and in the final analyses the Jesuits priests were just men. The question is:
How do you decide which historians are "confused/misinformed, some are liars/propagandists, some are dead-on accurate, and reliable, and all have their agenda".

For me, the best evidence is what is now available from the historians. Should new evidence be found, I, like everyone else, will have to adjust my conclusions. I used to believe in "Jesuit Treasure" but have researched the question for years and found it questionable. Not impossible, but questionable. I believe the Jesuit's broke the rules in some cases and did engage in mining, just not extensively.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

It's a trust/personal choice thing with historians - same as with politicians, clergy and all other cultural manipulators. You make your choice and it modifies your beliefs. Good luck.

I agree with your Jesuit assessment. I think it's likely the brothers engaged in a modest amount of mining in Arizona in order to accumulate some silver for casting church bling and for use as a convenient trade medium for local purchasing. I don't have any faith in the fabulous stories in the TH "literature" purporting that they cached huge amounts of gold and silver bullion in southern Arizona. Those stories are crap IMO. I do believe it's possible that Kino and maybe other Jesuits were quietly seeking existing treasure caches in Arizona and New Mexico, based on privileged information they brought with them from Europe.