Legend of the Stone Maps

[Backwoodsbob]

Can we see the next page of his writings

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[cw0909]

since the tread is derailed, ill add one more, this is the man
being discussed in a few of the posts right, the church claims
him, im thinking he is/was of the Jesuit Order
Charles W. Polzer S.J.
http://www.padrekino.org/docassociation/father_charles_recap_eng.htm

 

[Azquester]

He slings a good stew I must admit.

I am not arguing with Joe or expecting to change his mind on anything at all.

My only interest is to engage in discussion or debate as a way of learning more from him or from other posters, and making me do further research to verify that my counterpoints are historically accurate.

As much of a contrarian Joe is, many of the more interesting discussions on this forum and others would not be possible without him stirring the pot, so to speak.

 

[Not Peralta]

HI, Since Father Charles Polzer S.J is being discussed here so much, Why don't the so called friends of his just come out and explain exactly how he viewed Jesuit Treasures and the Stone Tablets,
and what Father Polzer really thought about the Stone Tablets.NP

 

[wrmickel1]

HI, Since Father Charles Polzer S.J is being discussed here so much, Why don't the so called friends of his just come out and explain exactly how he viewed Jesuit Treasures and the Stone Tablets,
and what Father Polzer really thought about the Stone Tablets.NP

Polzer, believed they were fakes. Based on one simple deduction.
He couldn't understand them. So not being a Jesuit, its pretty clear to understand Why. Now take the same maps to a priest today such as my best friend growing up with no knowledge of what he's looking at and he starts to explain what the symbols are and identified them to be Jesuits without any reservations.

Wrmickel1

 

[Backwoodsbob]

NO DISRESPECT!!! I don't think the Jesuits of today have the skill to make a stone map. That's my opinion.

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[cactusjumper]

wrm & Bwb,

Where in the world are you guys getting your "information" from? Father Charles Polzer was a highly respected Jesuit and the Jesuit schools are some of the best in the nation. Georgetown University, Boston College and Loyola being just three that come immediately to mind.

Father John O'Malley teaches at Georgetown and is a great source of historical information for the Jesuits. Both Mike and I have been in contact with him over the years. I have two of his books inscribed to me. While he has not studied the Jesuit history in Mexico, he is still a great historian on the Order.

I believe you both need to do a little more research.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Backwoodsbob]

Making and knowing how to read are two different things. I did say no disrespect. If their oath is to protect the Jesuits order. Could he give you the truth?

All I was saying is the skill to do the work in stone. Not the ones talked about on here. Something like this. Have him look at it. Watch his face

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[cactusjumper]

He slings a good stew I must admit.

Bill,

Had you worked up enough nerve to actually come into our camp at that first Rendezvous, instead of standing at the back of your pickup and glaring at us, you would have been welcome to try the stew. I assume all the threats you delivered to me on the LDM Forum kept you out of reach. I have not forgotten those who did their best to throw roadblocks into the event. Still goes on today.

As for my being a "Forest Gump" type figure.........My connections are real, not imaginary, like some folks. Between my library and those source connections, many folks just can't get over their resentment.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Making and knowing how to read are two different things. I did say no disrespect. If their oath is to protect the Jesuits order. Could he give you the truth?

All I was saying is the skill to do the work in stone. Not the ones talked about on here. Something like this. Have him look at it. Watch his face

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Bwb,

My discussions did not stray into Jesuit treasures. I did ask if he thought it possible that the Jesuits in Mexico were involved in mining. Not having researched Jesuit history in Mexico, he had no knowledge of it, but said anything is possible. That's the same thing I have always maintained.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cw0909]

there was/ is a post, that i cant find at the moment, about a letter to? from?
the stones being a yellowish color, rereading Clarence Mitchell book in ch 4
pg 29, Jack/T.T. describes the stones as, strong hard red rock

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.../peralta/Superstition Treasures Chapter 4.pdf

 

[cactusjumper]

Since there's very little in the way of rational discussion on this forum right now, I thought I'd take this up in debate.

Are you aware that on the 1702 map by Kino, there is a river on it called Rio Azul or Blau Fluss, both meaning "blue river," which later came to be known as the Verde river? As you may know the Verde River confluence isn't visible from anywhere but the Salt River Valley, so for him to have named it from a mountaintop south of the Gila isn't possible by any stretch of the imagination.

The idea that Kino marked the territory northeast of the Salt River "Moqui" is, as most are led to believe, rooted in his interest in meeting them with the goal of christening them. However, and conveniently, I may add, the naming of the Verde River originally as Rio Azul isn't an accident as Rio Azul is a name thought to have been connected to the legend of a mountain of gold, located somewhere in the vicinity of the Moqui villages, known as Sierra Azul. So Kino's goal of going there was probably twofold.



Manje did not travel with Kino on every one of his journeys as you know, he only traveled on a handful of Kino's tireless voyages. Many of those trips sometimes didn't even involve another white man, and sometimes even consisted just of Kino, his Indian servants, and a retinue of horses. As an interesting side note, the Salt River wild horses are rumored to have been introduced to the region from Kino's stock. He was known for running his horses into the ground.

So to take Manje's account of Kino as being comprehensive as far as a profile of Kino's journeys, is misleading.

And as we know, Kino's later journals and his astrolabe is missing, so likely we will never have a full understanding of what exactly he did in the Pimeria Alta.

Although Kino isn't recorded as having gone that far up north, Fr. Campos was. Fr. Campos had, in the words of none other than your favorite revisionist historian, Charles W. Polzer, "penetrated the White Mountains in search of the Moqui."

That would put him way north of the Gila River...... wouldn't it?

deducer,

You have just rewritten history. There is no mention of the Moqui, anywhere, in "The Presido and Militia on the Northern Frontier of New Spain 1570--1700". The actual quote reads: "Campos made several major expeditions northward as far as the White Mountains of Arizona."

There were others who were part of writing that book. I don't believe there is any way to attribute that quote, specifically, to Father Polzer.

The Gila River is approximately 65-miles south of the White Mountains and they are around 30-miles west of New Mexico. Kino had long discussed skirting Arizona to the east, to make contact with the Moqui People of New Mexico. Straight north through Arizona from the Gila was too dangerous.

If you are going to call Father Polzer a "revisionist historian", you will need to bring more solid evidence than what you have presented. On the other hand, I am impressed that you are obviously doing your homework. Pay more attention to the written words, as that will make you a much more accurate researcher. Otherwise.......Good work!

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Azquester]

Eldo,

That was long before the Real Sherriff Joe became famous. I erased my post because it was meaningless response to a nobody.

.

If you have any information about Ol Sheriff Joe AARPaio, I would love to hear about someone claiming to be him, or for the matters at hand, if it was actually him looking to find more information about the mines for his own personal exploits.

let's just say its very interesting someone used his likeness as a tool to exploit information here.

 

[cactusjumper]

Eldo,

That was long before the Real Sherriff Joe became famous. I erased my post because it was meaningless response to a nobody.

.

Bill,

For years now your posts have been meaningless, this one was just one more in a long line. You can still find my posts on the LDM Forum, as I don't erase them. Where are yours from that period? When will we get more names, dates and other meaningless posts like those from previous pages here?

Too many people here from the old forum who know you well. Only the new folks will give you any credibility.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[deducer]

deducer,

You have just rewritten history. There is no mention of the Moqui, anywhere, in "The Presido and Militia on the Northern Frontier of New Spain 1570--1700". The actual quote reads: "Campos made several major expeditions northward as far as the White Mountains of Arizona."

There were others who were part of writing that book. I don't believe there is any way to attribute that quote, specifically, to Father Polzer.

The Gila River is approximately 65-miles south of the White Mountains and they are around 30-miles west of New Mexico. Kino had long discussed skirting Arizona to the east, to make contact with the Moqui People of New Mexico. Straight north through Arizona from the Gila was too dangerous.

If you are going to call Father Polzer a "revisionist historian", you will need to bring more solid evidence than what you have presented. On the other hand, I am impressed that you are obviously doing your homework. Pay more attention to the written words, as that will make you a much more accurate researcher. Otherwise.......Good work!

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

From: Kino Guide II: A Life of Eusebio Francisco Kino, S.J., Arizona's First Pioneer and a Guide to His Missions and Monuments, by Charles Polzer, page 23:

Campos rode the limits of the same frontier and penetrated the White Mountains in search of the Moqui.

Again, that was in Polzer's words; don't think I ever said it was from The Presido and Militia on the Northern Frontier of New Spain

Good luck.

 

[cactusjumper]

From: Kino Guide II: A Life of Eusebio Francisco Kino, S.J., Arizona's First Pioneer and a Guide to His Missions and Monuments, by Charles Polzer, page 23:



Again, that was in Polzer's words; don't think I ever said it was from The Presido and Militia on the Northern Frontier of New Spain

Good luck.

deducer,

You wrote this:


Although Kino isn't recorded as having gone that far up north, Fr. Campos was. Fr. Campos had, in the words of none other than your favorite revisionist historian, Charles W. Polzer, "penetrated the White Mountains in search of the Moqui.

Followed by this back-up post:

The quote regarding Fr. Campos going as far north as the White Mountains of Arizona isn't from Bolton, it's from The Presidio and Militia on the Northern Frontier of New Spain: 1570-1700 edited by Thomas H. Naylor, Charles W. Polzer, page 627."



I believe you made a simple mistake, just as we all do. At this point, neither of your posts have been edited or deleted.

I have both of the "Kino Guides" with Father Polzer signing #156 of 200 hard bound copies.
"Kino Guide II" is signed by Father Polzer, Donald Bufkin (Cartography) and Tom Naylor (Historic Photos). They are little treasures for me.

I can only go by what you write, can't read your mind. I copied the two quotes directly from your posts.

Still good to see you researching with such good sources.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[deducer]

deducer,

You wrote this:


Although Kino isn't recorded as having gone that far up north, Fr. Campos was. Fr. Campos had, in the words of none other than your favorite revisionist historian, Charles W. Polzer, "penetrated the White Mountains in search of the Moqui.

Followed by this back-up post:

The quote regarding Fr. Campos going as far north as the White Mountains of Arizona isn't from Bolton, it's from The Presidio and Militia on the Northern Frontier of New Spain: 1570-1700 edited by Thomas H. Naylor, Charles W. Polzer, page 627."



I believe you made a simple mistake, just as we all do. At this point, neither of your posts have been edited or deleted.

I have both of the "Kino Guides" with Father Polzer signing #156 of 200 hard bound copies.
"Kino Guide II" is signed by Father Polzer, Donald Bufkin (Cartography) and Tom Naylor (Historic Photos). They are little treasures for me.

I can only go by what you write, can't read your mind. I copied the two quotes directly from your posts.

Still good to see you researching with such good sources.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

To clarify:

The quote regarding Campos going as "far north as the White Mountains" (my words) is from The Presidio and Militia on the Northern Frontier of New Spain: 1570-1700

Campos "penetrating the White Mountains" is from Kino Guide II: A Life of Eusebio Francisco Kino, S.J., Arizona's First Pioneer and a Guide to His Missions and Monuments

I make more than my share of mistakes; not this time, though. Thanks for your concern, Joe.

 

[wrmickel1]

wrm & Bwb,

Where in the world are you guys getting your "information" from? Father Charles Polzer was a highly respected Jesuit and the Jesuit schools are some of the best in the nation. Georgetown University, Boston College and Loyola being just three that come immediately to mind.

Father John O'Malley teaches at Georgetown and is a great source of historical information for the Jesuits. Both Mike and I have been in contact with him over the years. I have two of his books inscribed to me. While he has not studied the Jesuit history in Mexico, he is still a great historian on the Order.

I believe you both need to do a little more research.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Joe, you seem to be misguided, The new Jesuit order is a legitimate order but totally disconnected from the old Jesuit order. The first where just thugs for the Pope, needed someone gone they took care of it, need gold from the Americas they took care of it, Pope cutting ties to them they had someone take care of them.

So I'm not real sure what you mean by the above post.
You can't restart a order 100 years later and be a authority on the subject. But Polzer was a really good historian of the Old Jesuits with very limited material. Most was destroyed during the cut ties with the Pope.

But what's with all the anger directed towards you lately are you leopard. Ha ha ha

Take care Joe

Wrmickel1

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe, you seem to be misguided, The new Jesuit order is a legitimate order but totally disconnected from the old Jesuit order. The first where just thugs for the Pope, needed someone gone they took care of it, need gold from the Americas they took care of it, Pope cutting ties to them they had someone take care of them.

So I'm not real sure what you mean by the above post.
You can't restart a order 100 years later and be a authority on the subject. But Polzer was a really good historian of the Old Jesuits with very limited material. Most was destroyed during the cut ties with the Pope.

But what's with all the anger directed towards you lately are you leopard. Ha ha ha

Take care Joe

Wrmickel1

Wrm,

Can you tell me what your sources are for those conclusions?

Thanks in advance,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

To clarify:

The quote regarding Campos going as "far north as the White Mountains" (my words) is from The Presidio and Militia on the Northern Frontier of New Spain: 1570-1700

Campos "penetrating the White Mountains" is from Kino Guide II: A Life of Eusebio Francisco Kino, S.J., Arizona's First Pioneer and a Guide to His Missions and Monuments

I make more than my share of mistakes; not this time, though. Thanks for your concern, Joe.

deducer,

I think it will be plain to anyone who reads those posts in their entirety, that you did make a mistake. Sorry to see you dancing around it.

The real question, for me, is what is your point for bringing Father Campos into the conversation. We were, I thought, discussing Father Kino and the Moqui. Things had changed, somewhat, when Father Campos looked for the Moqui. Did he find them?

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo