Legend of the Stone Maps

[starman 1]

The Maps

Hello Old,

I agree the trail maps and the H/P Carving do lead to different parts of the range. This in itself is a significant clue as to what is going on.

Furthermore AZ Davis is right when he states the trail maps do not lead to Gold. That is also a significant clue. If not Gold then what?

Perhaps the H/P Carving does lead to Gold and that could suggest their deception, or simply they never had anything to do with the trail maps.

The Latin Heart is certainly an enigma. Assume for the moment it does have something to do with the trail maps. One does not need to understand The Latin Heart to understand the fundamental truth it speaks to. Simply the Latin itself does that. The Latin on the heart is old Latin. A form of Latin that was spoke lets say a long, long time ago. I believe Mr. Hatt made the same observation. A tip of the hat to him.

If the Latin on the Latin Heart is old Latin and it is related to the trail maps, well you have just gone through the rabbit hole.

On another question. Ever wonder why the range was locked up? Perhaps to protect something.

Good luck in your efforts.


starman

 

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[gollum]

Joe,

Regarding Travis Tumlinson attempting to sell the Stone Maps. We know a lot of the same people. I have NEVER heard ANYBODY say that they could tell me unequivocally that they knew Travis had tried to sell the Stone Maps.

What we have is you saying that "Somebody told me that somebody else told them, that they heard Travis had tried to sell the Stone Maps."

While I don't expect you to divulge sources, I have to say that a lot of people say a lot of things that aren't necessarily true. While I trust that you state the truth as you know it, I don't know your source in this. Even then, your source is only second hand. So far, I have collected about five different stories as to the origins of The Stone Maps. Not all of them can be true. Three different people claim to have sold the stone maps to Tumlinson. Unless you have someone FIRSTHAND that says Travis offered to sell them the Stone Maps, I am not biting.

Mike

 

[sgtfda]

It looks like the stones were examined by the FBI in Phoenix. Apparently is a assumption on Bobs part that they were sent to DC. A lot of items then and now are processed locally by the FBI. In the past I processed crime scenes for the FBI. Things were handled locally. The owner of the maps would have received a receipt and a ruling by the FBI that they were over 100 years old. This would have been huge for the owner.

 

[sgtfda]

Mike the maps were used to solicit $. Garman for one was sucked in.

 

[sdcfia]

sd,

I don't have any "agenda", other than passing along the information that Bob Corbin gave to me. Folks can make of it what they will.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Joe, in no way was my comment directed at you - or Mr. Corbin either. Sorry for any misunderstanding. My comment is meant to apply to PSM supporters and detractors in general - most folks have an opinion on the stones and human nature dictates that they cherry pick from the mountain of PSM material to support their stance. The same goes for many other lithic discoveries worldwide. Very few such artifacts turn out to be self-evident.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Clarence Mitchell was also known as Travis Marlowe. Travis Tumlinson and Mitchell/Marlowe were the only two people who ever personally owned the Peralta Stone Maps.
Mitchell acquired the Peralta Stone Maps directly from Tumlinson.

In 1965 Clarence Mitchell wrote the book Superstition Treasures using his pen name Travis Marlowe.

Read carefully what Mitchell/Marlowe wrote in his books Forward :


…….. The Peralta’s did mine great wealth. They did leave Gold and Silver buried for you to find. These Maps are carved on Stone, and relate to this area. Stone placards sixteen inches long, eleven inches wide, two and a half inches thick ! Each weighs about 25 pounds. There are three of this size, with carvings on both sides.Don Miguel and Pedro are the names carved into the Stone Maps.

These maps were taken for study to a professor of Geology at a well known University, and I hold in my possession a letter from him stating that these Stone Maps are authentic, and that they were carved over one hundred years ago. Further, he stated that none can dispute the antiquity of the stones because of natural weathering process of stone. ………..

Clarence Mitchell in his book Superstition Treasures is the source of the statement for the Peralta Stone Maps being carved "over one hundred years ago." Not the FBI. The FBI NEVER had any reason to have the Stone Maps in their possession.

Many people have Mitchell/Marlowe's book and it is still sold occasionally on ebay and Amazon. Anyone serious about the Peralta Stone Maps should definitely read this book.

Matthew

 

[Hal Croves]

Hello Old,

I agree the trail maps and the H/P Carving do lead to different parts of the range. This in itself is a significant clue as to what is going on.

Furthermore AZ Davis is right when he states the trail maps do not lead to Gold. That is also a significant clue. If not Gold then what?

Perhaps the H/P Carving does lead to Gold and that could suggest their deception, or simply they never had anything to do with the trail maps.

The Latin Heart is certainly an enigma. Assume for the moment it does have something to do with the trail maps. One does not need to understand The Latin Heart to understand the fundamental truth it speaks to. Simply the Latin itself does that. The Latin on the heart is old Latin. A form of Latin that was spoke lets say a long, long time ago. I believe Mr. Hatt made the same observation. A tip of the hat to him.

If the Latin on the Latin Heart is old Latin and it is related to the trail maps, well you have just gone through the rabbit hole.

On another question. Ever wonder why the range was locked up? Perhaps to protect something.

Good luck in your efforts.


starman

Yes, exactly.

 

[sdcfia]

some people just cant get it through their heads that the stone maps are fakes

Humans are so easily manipulated that it's scary. I wonder how many have bought the Brooklyn Bridge?

 

[deducer]

Wayne,

Bob does not believe the FBI "examined", other than maybe looked at the Stone Maps. Everyone has seen the letter he sent to Greg, but he does not recall the conversation going the way Jim Hatt originally told the story.

Here is what Jim Hatt had to say about the "Bob Corbin story":

Back just before the turn of the century (1900 - 2000) I spent a week camped at the old windmill, at the end of the road past the old Tortilla Ranch with Bob Corbin. While sitting around the campfire one night he told me a story about an FBI examination that was performed on the Stone Maps back in the late 1960's. His exact words escaped me, and for a long time all I could was paraphrase them. The more I repeated the story, the more it started getting repeated by others, until Greg Davis heard it and contacted me for the specific details. I told the story to Greg as well as I remembered it, and suggested that he contact Bob Corbin, and get the story directly from him. Greg wrote a letter to Bob requesting the details of the FBI examination of the stone maps that occurred back in the late 60's. In May of 2005 Greg received a written reply from Bob via the U.S. Mail, and emailed me a copy of it. A copy of that email (containing Corbin's letter) is below.

From: Greg Davis
Date: Tuesday, May 03, 2005
To: j.hatt@XXXXXXX
Subject: Stone Maps/Corbin

"It was approximately in the late 1960's, I believe, that I was at the U.S. Attorneys office in Phoenix, when one of the Deputy U.S. Attorneys told me that an FBI agent from the FBI laboratory in Washington DC was in their office. Apparently, the Phoenix office had obtained the stone maps to have them analyzed by the FBI laboratory to see if they were recent fakes. He asked if I would like to speak with the agent since I was interested in the Lost Dutchman Mine and I said I would. I spoke with the agent and asked him what they had found in analyzing the stone maps. He told me that they believed the maps were at least a hundred years old. To my recollection that's all he said about the maps.

Bob Corbin."


(Jim , Bob was not the attorney general at the time but working for the state or county in some legal capacity, Greg)

Bob Corbin had told me years earlier, that he had loosely concluded from the time frame given in FBI's opinion, that the stone maps were probably connected somehow to the Land Grant Fraud case, and he never gave them any more thought.

Using the information from Bob Corbin's letter, pertaining to the FBI's opinion of the age of the stone maps, "At least 100 years old" in the late 1960's, and the dates pertaining to the Reavis case, from Tom Kollenborn's article. The Land Grant Fraud case does not date back far enough to take you back to 100 years prior to the date the FBI examined the maps. That does not even consider the fact that the FBI said "At least 100 years" old in the late 1960's, and the maps could actually be even older than the late 1860's.

None of this is "Hard Evidence" of anything. It is all subject to the memory and credibility of the sources, but in both cases (Bob Corbin and a representative of the FBI Labs in Washington D.C.) I cannot think of any two sources that would come with more credibility!

If you accept them (as I do) it totally eliminates the possibility that James Addison Reavis had anything to do with making the Peralta Stone Maps.

Note the bolded part. This does not suggest any intent on Jim's part to mislead anyone. When are you going to give up casting aspersions on him?

 

[cactusjumper]

Ryan,

I shoot everything in RAW Format. IF you would like a copy of that same or one of several others of me holding The Horse/Priest Stone, I will be happy to give you..... or maybe if you think I Photoshopped it, you can ask Greg Davis at the Museum (who gave permission for everything I did that day), or maybe Phil Reinhart (who actually took the picture). You don't know much about Adobe PS if you honestly think I Photoshopped it. I have almost 8 gigabytes of Stone Maps Pics taken that day in June of 2010 (and I don't lie).

.....and if you don't think a Schedule B Oil Service for a 12 cylinder Mercedez is less than $400, then you don't know as much as you think you do. At about $12 per quart, your 12 cylinder uses about 9.5 quarts. That is about $120 just in oil. You are supposed to use a fleece filter (not paper), about $15......and don't forget that Mercedes Labor Rates go anywhere from $120-$160 per hour. Then your cabin air filters. I have been in the auto business for over twenty years here in L.A. I was Internet Sales Director at Rusnak Mercedes in Arcadia, CA. I was not wrong. Maybe labor rates and pricing are different in SoAz, but in SoCal that is what things cost.

Joe,

Why don't we just go to the horse's mouth on this one:

View attachment 1180896
View attachment 1180897
Dear Greg,
In response to your request for information on the Stone Maps, it was approximate in the late 1960's, I believe, that I was at the US Attorney's Office in Phoenix, when one of the Deputy US Attorneys told me that an FBI Agent from the FBI Laboratory in Washington DC was in their office. Apparently, the Phoenix Office had obtained the stone maps to have them analyzed by the FBI Laboratory to see if they were recent fakes. He asked if I would like to speak with the agent since I was interested in the Lost Dutchman Mine and I said I would. I spoke with the agent and asked him what they had found in analyzing the stone maps. He told me that they believed the maps were at least a hundred years old. To my recollection, that's all he said about the maps.
Hope the above is of some help,
Bob

Directly from Bob Corbin. Very simple. You seem to have added a few things to what Bob actually said. Nothing extraneous:

1. The FBI Agent was from the FBI Lab in Washington DC
2. The FBI Agent that worked at the DC Lab told Bob when asked that "they (they being the FBI) believed the maps were at least a hundred years old (in the late 1960s)"

You also say that you don't believe the FBI ever had possession of the Stone Maps. Bob Corbin's Statement seems to completely go against your thoughts on the subject, as he SPECIFICALLY states that the stone maps were examined by the FBI Lab in DC. As for your idea that there would be a clear record of the transaction is far from the truth. If you remember, I was the one that spoke with the FBI Agent/Historian John Fox PhD in D.C. His email response to our phone conversation:



In our phone conversation, he also told me that if an investigation/examination shows no evidence of wrongdoing, there would be no reason for the lab to hold on to the files. If the stone maps would have been recent fakes, a criminal investigation would have been called for, and all the examination paperwork would have been required to be kept for possible use in prosecution.

So, if the FBI believed the Stone Maps to have been at least a hundred years old in the late 1960s, that would have predated even Baron Reavis.

Mike

Mike,

I changed nothing from what Bob personally told me.....face to face. Those conversations took place in our home here, as Bob was spending the weekend with us.

You are welcome to believe what you have in writing, as that's pretty strong evidence. I will stick with what Bob said to me. In a discussion/debate with Jim Hatt, with Bob's permission, I posted an email from him laying out what took place. I think Jim deleted that post, as he was wont to do if he did not agree with something I posted.

I think I may have posted it here on TNet as well. As I have stated a number of times, I believe the Stone Maps are an accurate depiction of the Western portion of the range. It points out many monuments and canyons that still exist, or did exist.

A lot of what Bob has said, concerning the Stone Maps and the FBI story, is things that he was told and that means he does know for a fact that the FBI ever officially examined the Stone Maps. As I recall, you and someone else was going to request the information from the FBI. That was a number of years ago. Since no one has posted the results of such a request, I would imagine the information does not exist. It doesn't seem like the kind of thing that the FBI would hide.

I no longer have a dog in this fight. I only have the research I and others have done over the last fifty or so years. You all seem to be more informed than I ever was.

I do wish you the best of luck in your efforts.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Here is what Jim Hatt had to say about the "Bob Corbin story":



Note the bolded part. This does not suggest any intent on Jim's part to mislead anyone. When are you going to give up casting aspersions on him?

Hal,

Get a life! I didn't cast any "aspersions" on Jim Hatt. I simply passed on the information of what transpired. I did not care for Jim and he didn't like me one bit. On the other hand, I am partially responsible for a nice eulogy that was written for him when he passed.

Take care,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

It looks like the stones were examined by the FBI in Phoenix. Apparently is a assumption on Bobs part that they were sent to DC. A lot of items then and now are processed locally by the FBI. In the past I processed crime scenes for the FBI. Things were handled locally. The owner of the maps would have received a receipt and a ruling by the FBI that they were over 100 years old. This would have been huge for the owner.

Since it appears that all we have to look at ourselves is copies of what was on that bumper, perhaps the FBI never got around to returning the stones they looked at. Any artifact over 50 yrs old would fall under the antiquities act, if I'm not mistaken, and would be subject to confiscation. If this had been the case, would any of those involved commit the time and expense in order to have them returned ?
Especially if they still considered them fake (even as 100 yr old fakes) to begin with.

 

[deducer]

Hal,

Get a life! I didn't cast any "aspersions" on Jim Hatt. I simply passed on the information of what transpired. I did not care for Jim and he didn't like me one bit. On the other hand, I am partially responsible for a nice eulogy that was written for him when he passed.

Take care,

Joe

Then why does his name keep popping up in your posts from time to time?

He has absolutely no relevance to the discussion at hand, so why don't you just let him be?

You claim that he was wont to delete your posts without reason or whenever he disagreed with you; that is quite untrue.

Whenever he has deleted your post, he always gave a clear reason for doing so; for example when you tried to use Bilbrey's incarceration to discredit the Stone Crosses as being a scam perpetuated by Bilbrey, even though that was not the subject of the thread.

Just as Travis Tumlinson's incarceration has nothing to do with the validity of the Stone Maps.

 

[releventchair]

Since it appears that all we have to look at ourselves is copies of what was on that bumper, perhaps the FBI never got around to returning the stones they looked at. Any artifact over 50 yrs old would fall under the antiquities act, if I'm not mistaken, and would be subject to confiscation. If this had been the case, would any of those involved commit the time and expense in order to have them returned ?
Especially if they still considered them fake (even as 100 yr old fakes) to begin with.

Might depend on why they, or an individual employee, would look at them and what result they wanted. Result meaning was it to solve a dispute, or as a favor, or just plain curiosity about a potential lead, or as strictly a governmental investigation into something that might fall into antiquities act.
Antiquities law would need to have been applied as to the question of was it private or public property recovery /recoveries were from to pursue confiscation.
Without proof of recovery site(s) confiscation might be challenged.
Proving the provenance, or even the context enough to confiscate them back then would have saved a lot of debate down the road though!

 

[Old]

I really don't know what the Antiquities law covers. The "primary" discovery site appears to me to be Tax map section/parcel/cut 10430007C which is and was private land. Would the Antiquities law be applicable to this site?

 

[sdcfia]

Might depend on why they, or an individual employee, would look at them and what result they wanted. Result meaning was it to solve a dispute, or as a favor, or just plain curiosity about a potential lead, or as strictly a governmental investigation into something that might fall into antiquities act.
Antiquities law would need to have been applied as to the question of was it private or public property recovery /recoveries were from to pursue confiscation.
Without proof of recovery site(s) confiscation might be challenged.
Proving the provenance, or even the context enough to confiscate them back then would have saved a lot of debate down the road though!

You are correct. If an antiquities seizure was made, there would need to be due process by the government charging that the carved stones were recovered from public lands, resulting in a clear paper trail in court.

 

[Old]

sdcfia............are you saying the law ONLY pertains to public land?

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

Get a life! I didn't cast any "aspersions" on Jim Hatt. I simply passed on the information of what transpired. I did not care for Jim and he didn't like me one bit. On the other hand, I am partially responsible for a nice eulogy that was written for him when he passed.

Take care,

Joe

Hey Joe, I didn't write this.

Hal

 

[azdave35]

Might depend on why they, or an individual employee, would look at them and what result they wanted. Result meaning was it to solve a dispute, or as a favor, or just plain curiosity about a potential lead, or as strictly a governmental investigation into something that might fall into antiquities act.
Antiquities law would need to have been applied as to the question of was it private or public property recovery /recoveries were from to pursue confiscation.
Without proof of recovery site(s) confiscation might be challenged.
Proving the provenance, or even the context enough to confiscate them back then would have saved a lot of debate down the road though!

exactly...if the fbi thought they were the real deal they would have never returned them...and i agree completely with the last sentence of your post

 

[azdave35]

sdcfia............are you saying the law ONLY pertains to public land?

lynda...around here it only pertains to public land...you can pick up arrowheads..pottery or any artifact including petrified wood as long as its on your property