Knights of the Golden Circle after the Civil War

You should know, but apparently don't, that Quantrill's Guerrillas were all Knights of the Golden Circle and they were all considered to be "outlaws". What you should be asking yourself is "If these caches were all buried by run-of-the-mill bank and train robbers or ordinary thieves, then what specific robbery did this money and valuables come from?" Also, why did they never return to get these large amounts of money? If they were killed or imprisoned before they could retrieve them, then you need to be able to document that too. Now, I will restate my questions to you:
"Why don't you get a little creative and adventurous and actually discover your own sites? Oh yeah, did any of your outlaws ride 3-legged horses?"
~Texas Jay
 

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Oh yeah, did any of your outlaws ride 3-legged horses?"


First you tell me I don't know what I'm talking about and now you want my help??? :icon_scratch:

"Why don't you get a little creative and adventurous and actually discover your own sites?"

There you go talking again without a clue about what you're talking about. It seems like you're the one fishing for information.
 

No, Ron, I am not asking your help. I've already deciphered this intricate carving. I was just teasing you a bit since you are an authority on outlaws.
SWR, yes I do have many "reliable" references for this "bold" statement. I've even prepared a little belated Christmas present for you and the other KGC naysayers. Hint: In late January, google "Knights of the Golden Circle" and you will receive what you asked for. Until then, no peeking. :icon_pirat:
~Texas Jay
 

Actually Jay, I can document where some of these outlaw sites money came from. Take the I left Kansas Map. That money came from a robbery in Kansas. There was $5000 in gold dust taken. That would be the three bags of gold dust shown on the map. The same is the case with a number of other sites I know of. If you do some research these things can be figured out and documented.

There are a number of reasons the outlaws never came back to get their hidden goodies. Many times it was do to them being killed. Often in a later robbery attempt. Most of what the James/Younger gang put down here was done prior to their failed Northfield attempt. After that things really changed for Frank and Jesse. You also have to remember that until about 1878 my part of Oklahoma was a good place to have your scalp lifted.

Let's talk about KGC hunters discovering their own sites. Of the two supposed places here in Oklahoma both were "discovered" many decades before the KGC hunters "found" them. The Wapanucka site was hunted many years ago as was section 16. Both of these sites Bob was on and in both cases he was invited to them. He didn't find them.

It isn't hard to dicover a spot. If you have been in the field enough you begin to get the feeling of where a good spot is. Researching old trails, springs, river crossings are also a way of finding these places.

You can knock Ron all you want but he has put more good treasure hunting information and pictures of real signs and symbols on the internet than anybody else I know of. I've posted hundreds of pictures myself. I've even put three KGC maps on here for you KGC hunters to go find. These are the mega caches so often touted about. Unlike some famous treasure hunters I don't hide my e-mail address and I actually try and help those who write with questions.

Boattow and Texas Jay I'll post one more KGC map for you. I'll ask what do you have to show the folks on the forum other than, I don't have to prove anything statements? How is that a non-kgc hunter can post more KGC treasure info than the KGC hunters?
 

Remember me when you guys find these.
 

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From:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bloodybillandersonmystery

***

While the KGC naysayers continue to rant and rave that the Knights of the Golden
Circle died "during the War", they never do provide a specific year or reputable
source to support this erroneous claim. Here is a newspaper article from August
3, 1864, that says "The numerical strength of this Order is said to be
considerably over half a million." This was in late 1864 so it sure doesn't
sound to me like a dying organization. The proven fact is that the KGC had
hundreds of thousands more members at the end of the War than it had at the
beginning.
~Jay~

***
From Richmond Daily Dispatch.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2006.05.1135%2\
53Aarticle%253D6

Additional from the North.
From Northern papers of the 30th we get some additional intelligence.
The Yankees are considerably befogged about the whereabouts of Early, though
they state positively that be has retired beyond Martinsburg.

General Hunter, who has been relieved at his own request from the command of the
army in the Valley, is carrying on a contemptible and cruel prosecution of the
citizens of Maryland. He has exiled the secession citizens of Frederick.--Messrs
Bingham and Norris, editors of the Frederick Citizen, have been sent South.

The St. Louis Democrat publishes a long account of the conspiracy for the
erection of a Northwestern confederacy, referred to a few days since. The
organization engaged in this conspiracy is known as the Order of American
Knights, and their object is to embarrass the Government in the conduct of the
war, and to overthrow the Government, if necessary, for the supremacy of the
Order. Its professions and purposes are different in different States. It
proclaims a war policy in New York, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and other Eastern
States, while in the West it is for peace.

The Democrat's account says:

` The Order is of Southern origin, being erected on the ruins of the Knights of
the Golden Circle. Of the Southern organization General Sterling Price is
Supreme Commander. C C Vallandigham, while in Richmond, was made the Supreme
Commander of the Northern section or Order. A conspiracy, it is said, was
entered into between him and the rebel authorities to divide the East from the
West, and to thus aid the Southern rebellion.

' Vallandigham's time in Canada, it is said, was principally spent in furthering
this scheme. He had a conference with some of the leading spirits in the North,
and soon after his arrival in Canada arranged for the establishment of an Order
throughout the loyal States. The names of all who visited him at the Clifton
House are known to the Government. Among them the names of several prominent
politicians are published. The results of the conference are also known to the
Government.

About the 1st of January Vallandigham issued an address to the members of the
Golden Circle in the loyal States, in which he called upon them to renew their
vows, and said the time was fast approaching which will test their sincerity;
that the prosecution of the war is in violation of the rights of the States, and
President Lincoln is a usurper.

A meeting of the grand commanders of the different States was held in New York
on the 22d of February for the purpose of organizing an outbreak on the 10th of
March, the day fixed for the draft, but no definite plan was resolved upon. The
names of these conspirators are also known. The same commanders had a general
consultation with the supreme commanders at Windsor, Canada, early in April.

Amongst those in attendance were McMasters, of New York, Charles L. Hunt, St.
Louis, and Lafayette Devlin, of Indiana.

The programme adopted at those meetings was, that Vallandigham should represent
his District of Ohio in the Democratic National Convention, and there proclaim
the doctrine of the Order, viz: Pronounce the existing Administration of the
Government a power usurped, which the people had a right to expel by force, if
necessary. In fact, to inaugurate a rebellion in the North, in which he was to
be supported by the Order. Each Grand Commander was to have an armed bodyguard
at the Convention for the defence of Vallandigham. This, it was thought, would
precipitate the people of the Free States into armed conflicts and would be the
signal for the members of the Order to unite against the lawful authorities,
kill or capture the civil and military authorities, seize the arsenals, arms
public property of all kinds, and proclaim the Government overthrown.

The numerical strength of this Order is said to be considerably over half a
million. One hundred and fifty thousand of the whole are organized in New York,
and are called McClellan Minute Men.

There is the most convincing evidence of the truthfulness of this statement. The
reason of the sudden return of Vallandigham to Ohio was the fear of being
defeated as a delegate to Chicago, and it was only by his presence that his
election was secured.

The Grand Commander of Missouri is Charles L. , a nephew of James H. Lucas, and
many years the Belgian Consul, and the Deputy Grand Commander, Charles E. Dunn,
a city officer of St. Louis.

A long list of the names of the members of the Order of the different states,
together with full information concerning the whole scheme, is in the hands of
the authorities at Washington, and will probably be given to the public in a
short time.

The statements are based upon very voluminous testimony, taken during several
months past by the Provost Marshal General of the Department of Missouri.

Mrs. Mary E. Sawyer, of Baltimore, for corresponding with the Confederates, has
been sentenced to be confined in the female prison at Fritchburg, Massachusetts,
during the war, and "to be employed in labor for the benefit of the Union
soldiers"

Johnson S. Palmer, a blockade runner, of Loudon county, Va., has been sentenced
to the Albany (N. Y.) penitentiary for the war for trading with the
Confederates.

Charles L. Weller. Ex-Postmaster of San Francisco, has been arrested and
imprisoned at Fort Alcatraz, on the charge of using treasonable language at a
meeting of a Copperhead Club. --Weller is chairman of the Democratic State
Central Committee.


The Daily Dispatch: August 3, 1864. Richmond Dispatch. 2 pages. by Cowardin &
Hammersley. Richmond. August 3, 1864. microfilm. Ann Arbor, Mi : Proquest. 1
microfilm reel ; 35 mm.
Institute of Museum and Library Services National Leadership Grant provided
support for entering this text.

***
 

Has anyone found any references to the KGC existing after May 1865? All these are during the war which we know the Sons of Liberty were still fighting to secure a confederate victory.
 

It would seem the CIA thinks the same as I do. The KGC failed to accomplish much. Like has been said on here before, they did manage to pull Texas into the war and for that Texas suffered after the war like the other southern states.

Jay and Boattow I posted KGC maps. Do you guys have anything to offer the forum readers? I'm talking KGC treasure related. I think everyone agrees the KGC was a real organization and plenty can be found about them, but lets get down to the knitty gritty of KGC treasure caches. I've posted four kgc maps and I have others. What can you guys provide? Of course I think the maps are bogus, but I at least provided something that most people here on the forum didn't have.
 

I would think the KGC members who weren't killed during the war either just settled back into their normal lives or joined other organizations. The KGC as an effective group doesn't show up on the radar after 1865. From what I read they were trying to avoid prosecution after the war.

It's easy to say they became something else and that might be true, but unless they became the democratic party who seems hell bent on destroying our country I can't say they accomplished anything as a different group either. The KKK has done a great job of destroying property and lives of people of color or different beliefs, but what have they really done? The KKK has had millions of members and I would assume more funding than the KGC but we don't hear about klan mega caches. Why is that?
 

2late2dig said:
It would seem the CIA thinks the same as I do. The KGC failed to accomplish much. Like has been said on here before, they did manage to pull Texas into the war and for that Texas suffered after the war like the other southern states.
Click to expand...

This is why you don't believe in the KGC. This is all bogus information...every bit of it.

2late2dig said:
Jay and Boattow I posted KGC maps. Do you guys have anything to offer the forum readers? I'm talking KGC treasure related. I think everyone agrees the KGC was a real organization and plenty can be found about them, but lets get down to the knitty gritty of KGC treasure caches. I've posted four kgc maps and I have others. What can you guys provide? Of course I think the maps are bogus, but I at least provided something that most people here on the forum didn't have.
Click to expand...

I have lots of information to offer the forum readers. But unlike your "information" mine is real. Therefore I'm not interested in putting it on an internet forum. I know you can't believe this stuff you spew. You guys are silly.
 

Now how can my information not be real? It came from Jesse James III. This is the major source of KGC mega caches that so many people use as their source. The other information I post is real. This would include the hundreds of treasure signs I've posted pictures of.

So Boattow you are saying the CIA is listing bogus information and Texas Jay is using them as a verifiable source. I'm confused, which one is it?
 

So you have lots of real information to offer forum readers, but since it is real you're not going to do it? And this will prove to forum readers that the KGC had mega caches how? I can promise you that if I ever come across a source of true information that verifies the KGC cache theory I'd post it just to end the debate. Even though I'd have to admit I was wrong all along.

I started out looking to prove they are real but I just can't find the goods to prove it. I'm a very good researcher and there's not much I can't come up with when I start to look. There are a few people who can attest to this. I'm just the type who likes to see proof of these claims that people make.

You ask for proof that these caches don't exist and I show how Howk and Dalton were conmen. Up until I started posting information that shows them as such they were the source of KGC info. Now they've been thrown under the bus, but nobody is offering up anything new. Bob has based his reputation on the information the "black book" contains. So if he is the source often quoted and Dalton and Howk were fakes what good is a LA Times article?

Pastore flipped through the maps on the show like he had something good. Does that mean Pastore had false info as well? Boattow do you really believe the stuff you spew?
 

I have lots of information to offer the forum readers. But unlike your "information" mine is real. Therefore I'm not interested in putting it on an internet forum. I know you can't believe this stuff you spew. You guys are silly.

Well I guess that ends the debate. :icon_scratch: You supposedly have the information to prove all of us naysayers wrong and to show without a doubt that the KGC had the mega depositories but you don't want to show it? :dontknow:

After all of the arguing you've done about the depositories and vaults I would think you would jump all over being able to prove they exist. Now you're sounding just like Brewer and the rest of the true believers, you have "secret information" that no one else knows about but you can't share it with the world. And you think we are "silly"????

I certaintly wouldn't expect you to give up any big treasure secrets like how to find a depository or use the template :laughing9: but if you have actual documentation that the depositories exist then what is the harm in sharing that information or even just the source of the information?
 

:coffee2: :icon_thumleft: ;D 8) (SUNNY out...) Recovering from a broken right ankle... surgery, 3 screws, a rod... FRIGGING "black ice"!; AFTER the American Civil War, and the country was UNIFIED... KGC, etc. became OAK; ORDER OF AMERICAN KNIGHTS. NOW! Unrepentent REBELS became OUTLAWS, with MANY small caches, MOSTLY in the former "free states", and TEXAS! SOME depositories were utilized to "rebuild the SOUTH". A NEW war began against the "Robber Barons", the FEDS... OUT WEST! "Go from there..." :wink: :read2: :coffee2:
 

Alec and 2late,
The bottom line is I could show you pictures until I was blue in the face and you would say it was faked, it wasn't KGC, or whatever your denying minds could come up with. But what you guys do which is the same as SWR, you keep quoting the same sources that you admit you don't believe. I guess you are right Alec, I'm not out to prove anything to anybody. I'm just here ruffling your feathers and you guys just keep coming back for more. :tongue3:
Your friend,
Boattow
 

Hello! When you read the whole article you will find this:


"...About the 1st of January Vallandigham issued an address to the members of the
Golden Circle in the loyal States, in which he called upon them to renew their
vows,..."

If they were called on to "renew their vows", it doesn't sound like the organization was dead to me. :coffee2:
~Texas Jay


SWR said:
Texas Jay said:
While the KGC naysayers continue to rant and rave that the Knights of the Golden
Circle died "during the War", they never do provide a specific year or reputable
source to support this erroneous claim. Here is a newspaper article from August
3, 1864, that says "The numerical strength of this Order is said to be
considerably over half a million." This was in late 1864 so it sure doesn't
sound to me like a dying organization. The proven fact is that the KGC had
hundreds of thousands more members at the end of the War than it had at the
beginning.
~Jay~
Click to expand...

"The Order is of Southern origin, being erected on the ruins of the Knights of the Golden Circle."

Hello? Jay? :::knock knock:::
Click to expand...
 

Boattow, I didn't realize I was quoting any sources I didn't believe. I also don't think showing photos of markers and carvings proves the existence of a KGC depository/vault. It may prove the existence of a treasure (at least at one time) but there is no proof of who it belongs to.

That's just the way it is. Until a treasure is recovered using authentic KGC documents that say this treasrue was hidden here then you can't say who put the treasure there. There has to be a historical reference or it's just a treasure. The same goes for a JJ treasure or anybody. It can be found, but without a historical reference to the treasure you can't say absolutely that it belonged to JJ or anybody else. It's just a treasure.

You've been arguing the same argument longer than I have been arguing against it and you still can't prove the KGC depositories ever existed, no one can. Thre is no evidence that they ever existed or that the KGC even had the funds to put in the ground. In fact, all of the information out there says otherwise.

Jay, just because they wee called on to renew their vows didn't mean they did. It also doesn't mean they had any money and if renewing your vows meant paying more dues to be a member then I doubt very many did because the South and it's people didn't have any money.
 

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