Knights of the Golden Circle after the Civil War

[Shortstack]

A quick side note. When I said I think 21 is young for a KGC big shot - that is my opinion. I didn't say he wasn't, or could not have been.
Cheers

OK, no prob. I hope I didn't come across as angry in my last post. I'm just slightly grumpy because of some of the acrimonious exchanges going on concerning the KGC and their caches. I think the very best example of 2 people debating information and it's sources is the one between rangler and Mr. Orablanco on one of rangler's threads. Both of them are extraordinarily knowledgeable on the subject they were discussing and neither EVER came across as an "I-know-what-I'm-talking-about-and-YOU-don't" snob. They were courteous to eachother in presenting their, sometimes, differing information with supporting bibliographical info. You never got the impression that either was playing the game of "one-upmanship". The information that both gentlemen presented on that thread was copious and very interesting. The thread, if you'd like to check it out is one rangler started about the Land of Ophir. You see, his premise runs parallel to Swiftsearcher, TButch, Texas Jay, Kentucky Kache, and my ideas on the sources of the large caches hidden around the North American continent by different groups. Perhaps you should read that thread. I think you'll be interested.

Oh, yeah. SWR was very active and NEGATIVE on that thread, too. Contesting every statement, but providing nothing substantial in return and really being a class-A...........pain.

 

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[Tnwoods]

What was left in tact after the war war utterly destroyed during reconstruction. There was mass poverty. The only folks who didn't surrender were living in Mexico in poverty.

Do you know all that for a FACT? EVERYTHING was destroyed...? EVERYONE who didn't surrender went to mexico and lived in poverty?

It is really easy to make claims or statements about things. But you should have something to back it up that is traceable in fact. Something besides old Houk saying they are there. He had the maps, and he couldn't find any of it.

Lets re-examine what I said, and didn't say that you seem to think I did.

Utterly - to the fullest extent.

I did not say everything was destroyed. I said it was utterly destroyed. As in infrastructure, well, I guess you could say Atlanta was completely destroyed. Reconstruction was all about ruining the South, so it could not rise again. Not every single building and farm house was destroyed. You are reading things in there that were not implied. The South's ability to regroup and rebuild was utterly destroyed.

Everyone who didn't surrender went to Mexico - Armies surrender in war, and Shelby and all the others regular CSA who didn't surrender went to Mexico. I think that is pretty well documented.

Did folks just take off their uniforms and go home - sure they did. And while they might not have surrendered, they we also no longer part of the CSA.

Did fighting continue in Texas after Lee surrendered - sure they did. But they too, eventually surrendered.

When I say everyone who din't surrender went to Mexico, I thought it was self explanitory that I was talking about the CSA.

Folks like JJ and others could not surrender. Bushwhackers were were shot or hung on sight. Many moved to Texas, because that is where their families went during the scorched earth polices in MO.

I do hop that clears it up. I guess it is easier to try to pick apart my post's, then answer my question. So be it.

 

[Kentucky Kache]

What was left in tact after the war war utterly destroyed during reconstruction. There was mass poverty. The only folks who didn't surrender were living in Mexico in poverty.

Do you know all that for a FACT? EVERYTHING was destroyed...? EVERYONE who didn't surrender went to mexico and lived in poverty?

It is really easy to make claims or statements about things. But you should have something to back it up that is traceable in fact. Something besides old Houk saying they are there. He had the maps, and he couldn't find any of it.

Lets re-examine what I said, and didn't say that you seem to think I did.

Utterly - to the fullest extent.

I did not say everything was destroyed. I said it was utterly destroyed. As in infrastructure, well, I guess you could say Atlanta was completely destroyed. Reconstruction was all about ruining the South, so it could not rise again. Not every single building and farm house was destroyed. You are reading things in there that were not implied. The South's ability to regroup and rebuild was utterly destroyed.

Everyone who didn't surrender went to Mexico - Armies surrender in war, and Shelby and all the others regular CSA who didn't surrender went to Mexico. I think that is pretty well documented.

Did folks just take off their uniforms and go home - sure they did. And while they might not have surrendered, they we also no longer part of the CSA.

Did fighting continue in Texas after Lee surrendered - sure they did. But they too, eventually surrendered.

When I say everyone who din't surrender went to Mexico, I thought it was self explanitory that I was talking about the CSA.

Folks like JJ and others could not surrender. Bushwhackers were were shot or hung on sight. Many moved to Texas, because that is where their families went during the scorched earth polices in MO.

I do hop that clears it up. I guess it is easier to try to pick apart my post's, then answer my question. So be it.

The fact remains that farmers had money they had made through slave labor, and it was A LOT of money. Did some of them go "underground?" I don't know. Listening to your argument, it sounds like they might have.

I didn't know I was supposed to answer your questions.

 

[Tnwoods]

A quick side note. When I said I think 21 is young for a KGC big shot - that is my opinion. I didn't say he wasn't, or could not have been.
Cheers

OK, no prob. I hope I didn't come across as angry in my last post. I'm just slightly grumpy because of some of the acrimonious exchanges going on concerning the KGC and their caches. I think the very best example of 2 people debating information and it's sources is the one between rangler and Mr. Orablanco on one of rangler's threads. Both of them are extraordinarily knowledgeable on the subject they were discussing and neither EVER came across as an "I-know-what-I'm-talking-about-and-YOU-don't" snob. They were courteous to eachother in presenting their, sometimes, differing information with supporting bibliographical info. You never got the impression that either was playing the game of "one-upmanship". The information that both gentlemen presented on that thread was copious and very interesting. The thread, if you'd like to check it out is one rangler started about the Land of Ophir. You see, his premise runs parallel to Swiftsearcher, TButch, Texas Jay, Kentucky Kache, and my ideas on the sources of the large caches hidden around the North American continent by different groups. Perhaps you should read that thread. I think you'll be interested.

Oh, yeah. SWR was very active and NEGATIVE on that thread, too. Contesting every statement, but providing nothing substantial in return and really being a class-A...........pain.

No, you don't seem angry. I'm not trying to one up anybody.

You might be surprised to know that I do think there are a lot of things hidden in North America that have been here for centuries. I have kept up with those topics, and I find them fascinating. And I agree, they are both very informed people. But they too are also trying to cut to the truth. Which is why I enjoy reading their posts.

Something about KGC - it seems to be an all or nothing deal. If you don't believe everything - than you are a naysayer and a hater. Civil war in general is like that - almost like discussing politics and religion - folks get real upset if you don't see things their way.

 

[Tnwoods]

The fact remains that farmers had money they had made through slave labor, and it was A LOT of money. Did some of them go "underground?" I don't know. Listening to your argument, it sounds like they might have.

I didn't know I was supposed to answer your questions.

My question was to Texas Jay, and his statement.

One thing both sides did was loot everywhere they went. They would take supplies, money, whatever from whoever. If a plantation owner still had a lot money after the war, he probably buried it before the Union occupied everywhere.

If it was in Confederate money, it was worthless. That stuff is worth more now than it ever was during the war.

I have never said there was no money anywhere. I would think (my opinion here) that after the war, if I had a plantation and I now only have burnt fields and no labor, I would use my money to try to rebuild my life and not give it all to the KGC, so that I would then live in abject poverty. It took a long time and a lot of money for the South to rebuild itself. I would think a lot of that money came from the "rich farmers".

The Union certainly wasn't helping.

 

[Kentucky Kache]

I have never said there was no money anywhere. I would think (my opinion here) that after the war, if I had a plantation and I now only have burnt fields and no labor, I would use my money to try to rebuild my life and not give it all to the KGC, so that I would then live in abject poverty. It took a long time and a lot of money for the South to rebuild itself. I would think a lot of that money came from the "rich farmers".

Isn't that supposed to be the aim of the KGC - rebuild the South? So if the rich farmers used their money to rebuild the South, how would that be "giving" it all to the KGC?

 

[Shortstack]

Here's another angle to look at the reconstruction period in the South. There were many rich people in the southern states BEFORE the War of Northern Aggression. You can bet that they did not change their money to Confederate paper, but kept their riches in "hard coin", instead. After the war, they simply brought their funds back into use, slowly. Too many people think of total desolation when they picture the South during post WNA and they're correct up to a point. Most of the wealth was centered in the big cities such as Natchez, MS; Mobile, AL; Montgomery, AL; St. Augustine, FL; throughout the Carolinas; and up to Richmond, VA. The big money was not located out in the "country", but was city-bound. That OLD money survived and don't you ever doubt that and a lot of that "old" money was collected and hidden away by believers. What did they believe in? Many things. And none of those beliefs had anything to do with the government.........CSA or USA.

 

[Tnwoods]

Here's another angle to look at the reconstruction period in the South. There were many rich people in the southern states BEFORE the War of Northern Aggression. You can bet that they did not change their money to Confederate paper, but kept their riches in "hard coin", instead. After the war, they simply brought their funds back into use, slowly. Too many people think of total desolation when they picture the South during post WNA and they're correct up to a point. Most of the wealth was centered in the big cities such as Natchez, MS; Mobile, AL; Montgomery, AL; St. Augustine, FL; throughout the Carolinas; and up to Richmond, VA. The big money was not located out in the "country", but was city-bound. That OLD money survived and don't you ever doubt that and a lot of that "old" money was collected and hidden away by believers. What did they believe in? Many things. And none of those beliefs had anything to do with the government.........CSA or USA.

Now that I agree with 100%. Same thing is happening today

The Union occupied the major cities for quite a while after the war, and they also kept an eye on where the money was going - so that there would be no financed uprisings.

They had a pretty heavy hand in a lot of places.

Isn't that supposed to be the aim of the KGC - rebuild the South? So if the rich farmers used their money to rebuild the South, how would that be "giving" it all to the KGC?

I thought the aim of the KGC was at first to create the giant circle of slave states by incorporating Cuba and part of Mexico into the Confederacy.

During the war I thought they were mainly interested in creating a Northern insurrection.

After the war they seemingly weren't around in great force. I have not heard any stories of the KGC funding the rebuilding of towns and hospitals. Until / except for JJ was one of his names, I had never heard of any mass treasure vaults they left.

As you can see, these are my opinions, based on my study.

You might find this difficult to swallow, but unlike some others, I think the KGC were huge in numbers during the war - and I get this from the memo's of Union field commanders - they were afraid of them to a good extent. But at the same time, every time the KGC were called upon for an armed uprising in the North, it failed miserably, or didn't happen at all. I think one of the few exceptions was in NYC, and I think that did them more damage than good PR wise with the folks.

They did try to invade Cuba in 1850, and were repelled. They planned to invade Mexico, and not enough men showed up at the appointed place and time, and the Union got wind of it and that didn't work out either.

Before the war, there was a lot of gold accumulated by the soon to be Confederate government, but that all went to the war effort. I have read old newspaper accounts from 1864 that while the South was being razed, Jeff Davis and his inner group were living the high life with the treasury,money having Ships bring them special order furniture and silks and such from Europe. I think that is where a lot of the treasury actually went. They pissed it away living high. What little that was left at the very end was buried there in Danville. From what I've read, it would seem to be in a cemetery that no one will ever get a chance to dig up.

 

[Kentucky Kache]

Not saying they did this, but IF the KGC did hide caches, why would they leave a record, other than signs and symbols that only trained initiates could read?

 

[Shortstack]

Tnwoods, don't get hung up on that slavery angle. Using slaves was only a means to an end BEFORE the WNA and a non-player after the war. The only answer for the needs of large workforces on those 1,000-acre plantations were slaves. That didn't make it RIGHT, but was, sadly, used. If you'll read the Constitution of the Confederate States of American, you'll see that the first step to getting rid of the slavery way of life was started there as an original Article of the document. That was about 5 years or more before the US Constitution was amended to outlaw it.

The invading of Cuba and / or Mexico sounds like the stu-pid activities of a wildcard group.

As to what, exactly, the deposits were hidden FOR is where the debate could rightly center. Until some of the "libraries" are recovered, we will not know for sure what their endgame plans were.

 

[Kentucky Kache]

Actually, it makes sense to me for just plain ole people to have hidden their wealth just to protect it, in common depositories. I can see the possibility either way. If I find a cache, I don't care if it was hid by KGC or grandpa Doe.

 

[Tnwoods]

See - we agree on a lot! Slavery was on the way out, and would have been gone likely by 1870 without the war anyway. My point about labor was more toward the loss of manpower in general from the extremely high casualty rate in the war. Heck, the whole darn war wasn't about slavery.

Libraries - now that is interesting. I have been told there is a major KGC library where I am living now - and I have been trying to figure out if it is here or not for the past year. Again, info from a friend who heard it from a friend. So far - haven't found anything that fits the description. Naturally, my friend didn't get directions, and I think the guy that told him has passed.

Now, to figure out where the vaults are, I would think figuring out where the money came from would help considerably. If a bank hasn't been robbed, then there is no reason to look for the money.

The magnitude of what these vaults are said to be, it came from somewhere. And wagons full of gold would be hard to hide from the Union - so if they are there - they would be close to where the money was obtained from, IMO. Now if there were a lot of stories of millions going missing from banks, I would start to think the stories of the vaults would be more valid.

Actually, it makes sense to me for just plain ole people to have hidden their wealth just to protect it, in common depositories. I can see the possibility either way. If I find a cache, I don't care if it was hid by KGC or grandpa Doe.

See, now we agree too!

 

[Tnwoods]

Not saying they did this, but IF the KGC did hide caches, why would they leave a record, other than signs and symbols that only trained initiates could read?

That is a good question.

I am not a symbol expert by any means. And the things I have found usually perplex me...LOL Personally, I haven't seen anything that says "I am a KGC cache". I have read books where folks say that is what the are. Maybe they are right, maybe they aren't.

I do think a lot of what folks say is KGC is usually something else.

Morgon and his men were notorious for looting cities as they marched along. And they buried it as they went, because you can't carry all that stuff and fight at the same time. I think most of that is still missing. But I bet if there are any clues carved out there, they would be considered KGC.

 

[Tnwoods]

The Knights of the Golden Circle was not a part of the Confederate States of America. The Knights of the Golden Circle was a pro-slavery (anti abolitionism) organization that was created years before the Confederate States of America, and had plans of invading Cuba and Mexico.

The Knights of the Golden Circle believed it was there God given right to own slaves, and had absolutely nothing to do with the Constitution of the Confederate States of America

Also true

 

[Kentucky Kache]

Personally, I haven't seen anything that says "I am a KGC cache". I have read books where folks say that is what the are. Maybe they are right, maybe they aren't.

Morgon and his men were notorious for looting cities as they marched along. And they buried it as they went, because you can't carry all that stuff and fight at the same time. I think most of that is still missing. But I bet if there are any clues carved out there, they would be considered KGC.

Have you found any that says "I am Morgan?"

 

[Shortstack]

The only part slavery played in the run-up to the WNA was , it was an exceptable excuse. For the real reasons the Southern states seceded from the USA can be found in the Congressional Records and the Commodities Exchange records during the 2 years or so before the Secession. Check out the laws that were passed by the northern controlled Congress as they pertained to the marketing of cotton and check the prices set by the northern owned textile mills and you'll find the reasons the Southern states became the Confederate States of America. Slavery was the hue and cry of the northern pukes because it was far more "acceptable" to the citizenry. After all, blood had been spilled for YEARS prior to that between the abolitionists and the pro-slavery crowds in the Kansas-Missouri "border wars". You know; the Jayhawkers and Red-Legs.

I'm starting to wonder if there might have been an inner-organization using the KGC as a cold cover. Similar to; say the intersanctum to the Tabernacle.

 

[Tnwoods]

No, but I haven't looked either...LOL They should be findable though. There are records of where they were when they buried some of it before looting the next town. And then they got captured, ten they escaped, and I think the ones that escaped high tailed it back to southern controlled states, if I remember correctly, Morgan went back to TN. I never found any evidence he or anyone else ever went back to dig any of it up. Nor have I seen anything that anyone else has dug any of it up either - so there is a decent chance there are a few caches of his still out there. I would think they would be worth a good amount.

Off hand I can't remember which states, but they were north of TN, which is mainly why I didn't go looking. Time and money, both always in short supply. But unless there is a Walmart sitting on it now, a good detective could probably find one or two.

 

[Tnwoods]

The only part slavery played in the run-up to the WNA was , it was an exceptable excuse. For the real reasons the Southern states seceded from the USA can be found in the Congressional Records and the Commodities Exchange records during the 2 years or so before the Secession. Check out the laws that were passed by the northern controlled Congress as they pertained to the marketing of cotton and check the prices set by the northern owned textile mills and you'll find the reasons the Southern states became the Confederate States of America. Slavery was the hue and cry of the northern pukes because it was far more "acceptable" to the citizenry. After all, blood had been spilled for YEARS prior to that between the abolitionists and the pro-slavery crowds in the Kansas-Missouri "border wars". You know; the Jayhawkers and Red-Legs.

I'm starting to wonder if there might have been an inner-organization using the KGC as a cold cover. Similar to; say the intersanctum to the Tabernacle.

Excellent points.

My understanding is this:

The Southern states had been discussing getting out of the Union for a while already - MA had been thinking about it since 1850..LOL

Lincoln - when in Ill - pushed for a state built RR - which bakrupted the state and never got finished. When he became President - since it worked so well at the state level - he decided to build a RR across the North - but all the money was being generated in the south. So he imposed great big tariffs on the cotton going to Europe - which ticked off the south.

Not exactly the stories we are taught in school.

The border wars were completely different set of circumstances, and started long before the WNA. That whole period leading up to the WNA fascinates me. And I had kin that got caught up in it.

The Emancipation Proclamation - in Lincolns own words - was purely a military ploy. It only freed slaves in states "not controlled by the Union". He wanted a slave uprising in the south, which would force all the men to leave the front lines and go home - because only women and children were minding the plantations.

An inner circle - certainly possible. Before hostilities broke out, VP Breckenridge and I forget the Sec of Treasuries name - not important at the moment, the two of them managed to remove 6 million in gold bars from the US treasury, which went to funding the CSA. You need a lot of help to steal that much in gold. And you need them all to keep quite about it. This was before Lincoln took office, so they were planning to break away already.

Whether that was KGC related or not I don't know.

 

[truckinbutch]

Just an idle thought :
If one old man that was part of a group that went to Danville post Civil War, when he was a young man and poor ,could will a couple million dollars to the Baptist Church and be buried with Masonic honors when he passed in his 90's ; how much influence could the entire group exercise on the town to insure that empty holes are never exposed ?

 

[Shortstack]

Tnwoods:

As I recently mentioned in another thread, Congress passed export laws that not only put a hell of a tax on cotton bound to overseas markets, the South was also required BY LAW to ship the cotton to northern ports via the inter-coastal waterways. The South could not, BY LAW ship cotton directly to overseas markets from their own ports, such as Charleston, New Orleans, Mobile, etc. Not even from Norfolk, Va. Cotton shipments to overseas markets could only be done from the northern ports of Philadelphia, New York, Boston, etc. We weren't told about that in school, even here in the South. I learned that info many, many years later while researching history as a hobby. Yep, the winner writes the history.

Now, someone reading this thread might ask "what the h--- this has to do with the title of the thread?" Well, the answer is because when the southern folks and northern sympathizers began planning the secession, then hard money and GOLD was gathered from many places and hidden away for future recovery. Those not recovered, for one reason or another, are the stuff our treasure caches are made of.