Just Another Clues Thread

[somehiker]

But what’s not a solid fact is, Levi Company getting any ore from under that bed.

Babymick1

So what do you plan to use for proof when you "find it" Mick ?
Your "word" ?

 

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[PotBelly Jim]

But what’s not a solid fact is, Levi Company getting any ore from under that bed.

Babymick1

That could be correct. Because that particular jeweler may not have had anything to do with the matchbox, or any Dutchman ore.

Let's just forget about the matchbox for a second. Have you seen the pictures of Brownie holding ore, years prior to his passing? There were no affidavits then. There are also pictures of other jewelry that customers of Goldman's had made from Holmes' ore, that aren't so commonly talked about. There are also color pictures of some of that, as well as other specimens of jewelry from Holmes. What they all have in common is that they're in white quartz. If there's any rose coloring, I didn't see it. Maybe there is a little that the photos didn't pick up, I don't know.

This jewelry and ore was known about long before there were any affidavits filed, or before the stuff was passed along to heirs, etc. So all I'm saying is there's no conspiracy to suddenly make the LDM ore out to be white vs. rose quartz beginning in the current era...if you want to believe the LDM contains rose quartz, that's fine, who knows if it does or not...but don't act like there's some modern effort to change what the ore looked like...if something like that happened, which I doubt, it happened long before we were alive.

 

[somehiker]

Though not really a clue per se, I've always considered the original Waltz directions published by Bicknell in 1884, and also given by Northcutt Ely in 1953, as the most important primary information of all.

Northcutt Ely....

" Ruth had taken with him a metal box in which he kept the old Spanish map and various other documents, which described how to reach the mine. This box had been found in Ruth's camp. The map was missing. On the body itself, however, had been found a memorandum book, which Erwin Ruth showed me. It bore, in his father 's handwriting, in ink, directions which covered the last short distance to the mine.

It read as follows:
"It lies within an imaginary circle whose diameter is not more than five miles, and whose center is marked by the Weaver Needle, about 2,500 feet high, among a confusion of lesser peaks and mountainous masses of basaltic rock.
"The first gorge on the South side from the West end of the range -- they found a monumented trail which led them northward over a lofty ridge, thence downward past Sombrero Butte, into a long canyon running north, and finally to a tributary canyon very deep and rocky and densely wooded with a continuous thicket of scrub oak...

The description was broken off at this point, but lower down on the page, well spaced and standing by themselves, were the enigmatic words "veni, vidi, vici" and then, written in pencil below this, was the notation About 200 feet across from the cave ".

Bicknell.....

 

[wrmickel1]

Though not really a clue per se, I've always considered the original Waltz directions published by Bicknell in 1884, and also given by Northcutt Ely in 1953, as the most important primary information of all.

Northcutt Ely....

" Ruth had taken with him a metal box in which he kept the old Spanish map and various other documents, which described how to reach the mine. This box had been found in Ruth's camp. The map was missing. On the body itself, however, had been found a memorandum book, which Erwin Ruth showed me. It bore, in his father 's handwriting, in ink, directions which covered the last short distance to the mine.

It read as follows:
"It lies within an imaginary circle whose diameter is not more than five miles, and whose center is marked by the Weaver Needle, about 2,500 feet high, among a confusion of lesser peaks and mountainous masses of basaltic rock.
"The first gorge on the South side from the West end of the range -- they found a monumented trail which led them northward over a lofty ridge, thence downward past Sombrero Butte, into a long canyon running north, and finally to a tributary canyon very deep and rocky and densely wooded with a continuous thicket of scrub oak...

The description was broken off at this point, but lower down on the page, well spaced and standing by themselves, were the enigmatic words "veni, vidi, vici" and then, written in pencil below this, was the notation About 200 feet across from the cave ".

Bicknell.....

I think this is bogus, Bicknell was a treasure Hunter. Waltz new if he was west, South, East or North from the needle. Why not say Five miles North, or the others. I’m sure he told Julia which way from the needle. Bicknell just didn’t want to say which way it was. Keep that to home self.

wrmickel1

 

[azdave35]

I think this is bogus, Bicknell was a treasure Hunter. Waltz new if he was west, South, East or North from the needle. Why not say Five miles North, or the others. I’m sure he told Julia which way from the needle. Bicknell just didn’t want to say which way it was. Keep that to home self.

wrmickel1

wow..actually something mick and i agree on

 

[wrmickel1]

Dave

I agree with a lot that you post, Except your closed mind, You seem to except the established quo, to many holes in it.
But anyway the reason I stay out of the Friendship Ring is so I’m not swayed one way or the other.

Wrmickel1

 

[somehiker]

I think this is bogus, Bicknell was a treasure Hunter. Waltz new if he was west, South, East or North from the needle. Why not say Five miles North, or the others. I’m sure he told Julia which way from the needle. Bicknell just didn’t want to say which way it was. Keep that to home self.

wrmickel1

Since treasure hunters have a greater interest in subjects like the whereabouts of the LDM, they are the ones we can sometimes get the best info from IMO. From what they had or have to say, we form our own opinions, often using what we find credible to supplement our own experience and findings. Challenging, but sometimes frustrating, the process has many intrinsic rewards.
Which is why I chose not to dismiss those directions as BS, but instead saw them as possibly misinterpreted by Julia and others who chose the same route as being the one Waltz was talking about. That as viewed from Phoenix, their future starting point, the Salt River Mountains and Superstition Mountain actually appear as a continuous range, with the northern end furthest to the west and the face of the entire massif appearing to trend and fade to the south. I've also considered "gorge" as something wider than what is normally referred to as a canyon, and see the route in towards Goldfield as a possibly fitting the directions much better than Hog Canyon.

But, you really should go ahead and keep thinking that way. It'll keep you busy somewhere else, far away from where, like deducer and a few other folks, I enjoy my hiking without the distractions of naysayers to what I might otherwise be willing to share .

 

[deducer]

I'm inclined to believe the Holmes account re: the candlebox, rather than the Holmes/Roberts version that popped up much later..
To me, it's entirely plausible that Julia could have asked a passing Holmes to mind Waltz while she went to fetch the doctor.
There's nothing in Dick's past that would indicate he was the type who would rummage through a dying or dead man's things looking for valuables, let alone under his bed. So someone had to have told him about the gold in the candlebox, and it wouldn't have been Julia. It must have been JW himself, the way I see it.

Don't forget the person who was sent out to fetch his cans of ore after the flood. I don't envision him as the type of person who would have kept his mouth shut.

 

[somehiker]

Don't forget the person who was sent out to fetch his cans of ore after the flood. I don't envision him as the type of person who would have kept his mouth shut.

True, but I wonder how much of the contradictory and just plain false information that we have all read over the years, originally came from his lips. Even some of what which Herman or Gottfried passed along. But when it came to the ore, he likely kept his mouth shut until it was gone. If he hadn't, local bad guys might have taken it first, since Julia would have had to leave him alone most times she was at her business.

 

[sdcfia]

True, but I wonder how much of the contradictory and just plain false information that we have all read over the years, originally came from his lips. Even some of what which Herman or Gottfried passed along. But when it came to the ore, he likely kept his mouth shut until it was gone. If he hadn't, local bad guys might have taken it first, since Julia would have had to leave him alone most times she was at her business.

Most folks acknowledge Waltz had possession of cobbled ore with free gold showing when he died. Zero degrees of separation from the truth begins with Waltz. We assume he knew where the ore came from - 100% accuracy for him.

Now comes the ever-growing dilemma. IMO, at least for a starting point, we can assume that the percent reliability of the origin of the ore decreases by half for every subsequent degree of separation from Waltz. This percentage may be considerably higher, but 50% makes the math a bit easier for illustration. Why the decrease in reliability? Many reasons - intentional and otherwise. Human nature is the main culprit. As Mick pointed out, people lie or obfuscate in order to keep what they think is good information to themselves. We all do it, you included. Call it greed - exclusively monetary in the beginning, but nowadays a good measure of intellectual bragging rights and plenty of hubris too. Human nature never changes.

There are plenty of other reasons for unreliable intel. Waltz may have not communicated the information well to whomever he revealed his secrets to. Minus 50% chance of the truth from that point onward, maybe more. (For all we know, he may have lied about the whole thing, -100%). Assuming he was trying to be helpful, the recipient of the information may not have understood the telling correctly. Minus 50% more. Now we're potentially at (0.5)(0.5)= 25% chance of accuracy after the first telling from Waltz himself, maybe much less. From that point on we have a witch's brew of greed, lies, deceit, mistakes, telephone gaming and chicanery that has potentially grown like The Blob. The more degrees of separation, the less reliable the information. Do the math.

Exactly who, what and why a person decides to put faith in the available clues determines how unreliable his premises are. Obviously, you go back to the source if you can - Waltz. Trouble is, nobody alive knows for certain what he said.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Most folks acknowledge Waltz had possession of cobbled ore with free gold showing when he died. Zero degrees of separation from the truth begins with Waltz. We assume he knew where the ore came from - 100% accuracy for him.

Now comes the ever-growing dilemma. IMO, at least for a starting point, we can assume that the percent reliability of the origin of the ore decreases by half for every subsequent degree of separation from Waltz. This percentage may be considerably higher, but 50% makes the math a bit easier for illustration. Why the decrease in reliability? Many reasons - intentional and otherwise. Human nature is the main culprit. As Mick pointed out, people lie or obfuscate in order to keep what they think is good information to themselves. We all do it, you included. Call it greed - exclusively monetary in the beginning, but nowadays a good measure of intellectual bragging rights and plenty of hubris too. Human nature never changes.

There are plenty of other reasons for unreliable intel. Waltz may have not communicated the information well to whomever he revealed his secrets to. Minus 50% chance of the truth from that point onward, maybe more. (For all we know, he may have lied about the whole thing, -100%). Assuming he was trying to be helpful, the recipient of the information may not have understood the telling correctly. Minus 50% more. Now we're potentially at (0.5)(0.5)= 25% chance of accuracy after the first telling from Waltz himself, maybe much less. From that point on we have a witch's brew of greed, lies, deceit, mistakes, telephone gaming and chicanery that has potentially grown like The Blob. The more degrees of separation, the less reliable the information. Do the math.

Exactly who, what and why a person decides to put faith in the available clues determines how unreliable his premises are. Obviously, you go back to the source if you can - Waltz. Trouble is, nobody alive knows for certain what he said.

That's the reality of it all, packaged complete, with a bow on top.

I don't consider Julia, Rhiney, Herman, Gottfried or Dick Holmes good sources of reliable information. What they released to the public, and what they kept for themselves, are probably 2 different sets of information. Relying on reports of what they said (Bick, Bark, McCarthy, Ely, Brownie, are the "original reporters" of such info) is an interesting exercise, but won't lead to any mine. Brownie also complained that he would tell someone something, then he would see it in print later and it was completely changed, i.e. he never said it.

Back to Bick's directions, I think he (like many) had a tendency to get his mine legends mixed up. Perhaps the problem was Julia, as there's significant evidence she did the same thing: Doc Thorne, Lost German Mine, and Lost Dutchman Mine. And, Adolph Ruth carried a combination of two of Bick's articles in his notes found on his body...useless trivia, but worth understanding I guess. In the 1895 SF Chronicle article, Bick tells how to get to the mine. (The monumented trail over a lofty ridge directions). In a prior article, he tells details about the area of the mine after getting there, which includes the Ruth "Pencil" notation: EDIT: The confusion over "200 feet" and "200 yards" is what I was getting at...Bick reports it differently in each article...which even still confuses me, it would seem ...Ruth's ink and pencil directions all come from the 1895 article, not a combination of two articles...

View attachment 1726264

As far as reliability of any of this? I guess we won't know until the mine is found.

 

[Oroblanco]

Amen to several posts here - the mixing of legends, the separations from the original source (Waltz) and that there is no logical reason why Holmes would lie about the gold having come from Waltz. Plus we can look at the actions which speak louder than words. If the gold ore came from somewhere else (California or Alaska have been proposed) why would Dick Holmes spend the rest of his life searching the Superstitions and then his son Brownie after him? That would be pretty illogical.

Also agree that Pierpont C. Bicknell should carry much of the blame for having botched up the information at the very start, probably deliberately misleading his readers as he was himself also a treasure hunter and not a completely disinterested news reporter. Others have also proceeded to mix up even more unrelated lost mine stories with the LDM including Barry Storm and Sims Ely himself. Ely did not apparently realize that the Apache Jack "black quartz with spots of gold like stars in the night" was very unlike the white quartz from the LDM, and the 'winnowing' of placer gold on top of a mesa remembered by the Mexican woman almost certainly had nothing to do with the LDM. Yet he proceeded to mix both right into the LDM, and the results have been hundreds of thousands of unsuccessful searchers along with over 200 claiming to have found the mine, usually without any gold of course.

That said - the whole LDM Jacob Waltz legend is typical of most lost mines, we don't have a lot of solid, provable evidence and it is frequently pointed out that if Waltz had such a rich mine, why would he live like a pauper and sign over his home to a neighbor in return for taking care of him? For a treasure hunter it is enough to go on, for the skeptics only seeing on the evening news with the pile of gold in the camera view will settle it.

 

[markmar]

Roy

You said it very well, but I have an objection on the Apache Jack story of the black quartz studded with gold like stars, not that would not be true but you believe Apache Jack was aware only about one mine in the Supers?
Stories tell how Apache were took gold from both Haywood mine and LDM inclined shaft.

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy

You said it very well, but I have an objection on the Apache Jack story of the black quartz studded with gold like stars, not that would not be true but you believe Apache Jack was aware only about one mine in the Supers?
Stories tell how Apache were took gold from both Haywood mine and LDM inclined shaft.

I could not even guess whether Apache Jack knew of more than one gold mine in the Superstitions. My best guess is that he only knew of the one, hence his odd behavior. If he knew of others he did not mention it to his friends.

To all - Barry Storm helped mix up the rose quartz with the white – in his May 1945 article for Desert magazine, he described the ore as:

“The shaft, he said, went down on an 18 inch vein of rose quartz which was studded with pin-head nuggets of gold, and there was a three inch hanging wallof hematite which was about a third gold beside it.” (pp 18)


[URL="https://archive.org/details/D...details/Desert-Magazine-1945-05/page/n15[/URL]


Barry Storm also published the tale of “Jacobs and Ludi” in Desert magazine as well as his book,


First part
https://archive.org/details/Desert-Magazine-1945-03/page/n23
Second part
https://archive.org/details/Desert-Magazine-1945-04/page/n9


It is also highly likely that the Waggoner lost mine story which WAS rose quartz gold probably has been assumed by some treasure writers (and hunters) to be one and the same with the LDM.

 

[markmar]

I could not even guess whether Apache Jack knew of more than one gold mine in the Superstitions. My best guess is that he only knew of the one, hence his odd behavior. If he knew of others he did not mention it to his friends.

To all - Barry Storm helped mix up the rose quartz with the white – in his May 1945 article for Desert magazine, he described the ore as:

“The shaft, he said, went down on an 18 inch vein of rose quartz which was studded with pin-head nuggets of gold, and there was a three inch hanging wallof hematite which was about a third gold beside it.” (pp 18)


[URL="https://archive.org/details/D...details/Desert-Magazine-1945-05/page/n15[/URL]


Barry Storm also published the tale of “Jacobs and Ludi” in Desert magazine as well as his book,


First part

https://archive.org/details/Desert-Magazine-1945-03/page/n23
Second part
https://archive.org/details/Desert-Magazine-1945-04/page/n9


It is also highly likely that the Waggoner lost mine story which WAS rose quartz gold probably has been assumed by some treasure writers (and hunters) to be one and the same with the LDM.

Roy

IMHO, Barry Storm was wrong only in the 18" vein from the inclined shaft, and this maybe because he was influenced by the clue of the shallow pit.
The description of the vein of the shallow pit in the Ludi story ( the LDM obove the tunnel ) is accurate, describing it as a reddish. Of course in this story Barry mixed up some clues which were for a different mine.
Like I wrote in the past, the clues attributed to the LDM are mixed with clues of different mines which are real and belong to the Triangle ( my sketch ).

 

[deducer]

Amen to several posts here - the mixing of legends, the separations from the original source (Waltz) and that there is no logical reason why Holmes would lie about the gold having come from Waltz. Plus we can look at the actions which speak louder than words. If the gold ore came from somewhere else (California or Alaska have been proposed) why would Dick Holmes spend the rest of his life searching the Superstitions and then his son Brownie after him? That would be pretty illogical.

Here's another knotty issue to think about.

If Holmes was by Waltz's side as Waltz was dying, how was he able to understand Waltz?

It is highly doubtful that Waltz would have been speaking English, as he was dying from the effects of pneumonia. If he was speaking at all, he would most likely have been speaking his native language, Swabian German.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Xaclty...I don't think he was doing much talking as he was dying that last day. Something else happened/was going on, that the "legends" as we've heard them haven't made clear.

 

[azdave35]

Here's another knotty issue to think about.

If Holmes was by Waltz's side as Waltz was dying, how was he able to understand Waltz?

It is highly doubtful that Waltz would have been speaking English, as he was dying from the effects of pneumonia. If he was speaking at all, he would most likely have been speaking his native language, Swabian German.

i dont think anyone can answer that....nobody knows for sure what languages waltz spoke

 

[deducer]

i dont think anyone can answer that....nobody knows for sure what languages waltz spoke

I think what everyone would agree upon is that English wasn't Waltz's first language, since he was an immigrant.

 

[wrmickel1]

Here's another knotty issue to think about.

If Holmes was by Waltz's side as Waltz was dying, how was he able to understand Waltz?

It is highly doubtful that Waltz would have been speaking English, as he was dying from the effects of pneumonia. If he was speaking at all, he would most likely have been speaking his native language, Swabian German.

Holmes is a German name, Most likely spoke German himself or bi lingo, Julia Thomas was most likely German As was Herman and his brother.

So native tougue was most likely the norm then.

babymick1