JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[Springfield]

It certainly is interesting. I tried to look up Mercedes, Spain to see if there is, or was a Jesuit church there, but there is no town of that name that exists in Spain today. Probably has changed to another name.

Las Mercedes. It's a very small village in Spain's Canary Islands.

 

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[deducer]

Las Mercedes. It's a very small village in Spain's Canary Islands.

Thanks.

Here's what I have found, something from an old travel guide and the approximate modern map. It would be fun to find out more about the cathedral and whether any of the expelled Jesuits from New Spain ended up here. If that could be established, this would be a good corroborative information that would solidify the premise that something really was buried in or around the Tumacacori mission.

 

[Springfield]

I'm not one to put much faith in those old newspaper treasure stories, except that, IMO, many of them were purposeful messages wrapped in seemingly plausible, but typically unverifiable adventures. I guess you could try to track down 'Judge Barnes', but when I look at this particular story, the one thing that catches my eye is the mention of the priest from Mercedes, Spain.

I'm glad you posted that partial map of the Canary Island of Tenerife, deducer. An interesting coincidence there (actually, I agree with Gibbs's Rule 39 - 'There are no coincidences') is that not far from Las Mercedes is the village of Juan Fernandez on the island's west shore. Why? Because Juan Fernandez Island, a Spanish possession 400 miles off the west coast of Chile, is also rife with buried treasure legends. Maybe a meaningless thing, maybe not. Anyway, now we have a whole bunch of treasure legends linked, by name at least, to this isolated north end of Tenerife.

 

[Oroblanco]

Not to put a crimp on this idea of Mercedes in the Canary islands, but there is another place called "Mercedes" which is in Seville, Spain. In fact there is even a street named Reina Mercedes; and coincidentally the large and old University of Seville is located on that street. What makes this interesting is that Seville is where the Archive of the Indies is located, and the University of Seville was granted the Jesuit college property in 1768. <the Casa de la Compañía de Jesús in Laraña Street> So it is entirely possible that a Jesuit college document ended up in the Universidad de Seville to be found by a later padre. Oh and here is a Wiki extract to support what I just said:

The College of the Annunciation of the Professed House of the Society of Jesus in Seville was one of the intellectual pillars of the Spanish Counter-Reformation, and also served as a starting point for Jesuit expansion in overseas lands. The building of the Professed House, where the university was installed from 31 December 1771, had been the first residence owned by the Jesuits in Seville. In was founded in February 1558, and work on the church, dedicated to the Annunciation, began in 1565.
The Jesuit supervisor of the House, the architect Bartolome de Bustamante (1501–1570), drew the original plans and the architect Hernán Ruiz the Younger continued the project to its completion in 1568. At first it housed a College for the Humanities, but as early as 1590 it had become the Professed House, a residence for those Jesuits who preached. The Jesuits were expelled from Seville in the 18th century and the building became the seat of the University of Seville in 1771

Joe - Capt Mills was even in the Rosebud fight as well, so was within a few miles of the LBH battlefield a week previous to it.

Please do continue,
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Hello Gentlemen

Perhaps The story in the newspaper Los Angeles Herald 27th September 1891 telling of alleged treasure found at the mission and of the mine that was not found and the map given to a Judge Barnes may be of interest?

View attachment 990788

Amy

Corp,

I have seen that article several times before. Anyone that has spent any time at all looking into Tumacacori has. Here is where it falls short: If indeed the mine is as big as all descriptions say, then why was there no follow up article? If someone would have found the mine of mines of Southern Arizona, then Tubac and Nogales would have been BOOMTOWNS for a while. There would have been hundreds of lawsuits from everybody from the Jesuits to every old desert rat that ever told the story of the mission treasure. They would have all said "I told them about it, and I am the reason it was found!" No evidence of any of that. Just like with the Atocha, I think Mel had to fight off about 122 (I think) lawsuits before being able to reap the benefits of his ten year search.

One other thing...... anyone that knows the mineralogy of the area, knows that Tumacacori Mt is not mineralized. All the tailings from Peck Canyon have been assayed, and also probably every other canyon in the area. No mineralization. Tons of monuments and markers. Drill holes that, when you insert a dowel rod point to trails that head over into other canyons. Lots of interesting things there. People have gotten dead there, just not rich.

Mike

 

[Springfield]

Not to put a crimp on this idea of Mercedes in the Canary islands, but there is another place called "Mercedes" which is in Seville, Spain. In fact there is even a street named Reina Mercedes; and coincidentally the large and old University of Seville is located on that street. What makes this interesting is that Seville is where the Archive of the Indies is located, and the University of Seville was granted the Jesuit college property in 1768. <the Casa de la Compañía de Jesús in Laraña Street> So it is entirely possible that a Jesuit college document ended up in the Universidad de Seville to be found by a later padre...

Well, yes, I suppose that's possible. However, the newspaper article provided by Corporate Investigations cited a 'church in Mercedes, Spain', not a church on a street named Mercedes in Seville (which, incidentally, is about six blocks long, with no churches). If we are to consider newspaper articles such as this seriously - which I admittedly don't, in a literal sense - we're pretty much obliged to at least follow their stories as presented.

 

[Oroblanco]

Well, yes, I suppose that's possible. However, the newspaper article provided by Corporate Investigations cited a 'church in Mercedes, Spain', not a church on a street named Mercedes in Seville (which, incidentally, is about six blocks long, with no churches). If we are to consider newspaper articles such as this seriously - which I admittedly don't, in a literal sense - we're pretty much obliged to at least follow their stories as presented.

So we must either dismiss newspaper articles out of hand as utterly chock full of fiction, OR we must take the words exactly verbatim, allowing NO chance for garbling or misinterpretations? I must respectfully disagree, completely on this approach. In fact you can find errors in history books, and in the encyclopedia Britannica for that matter, so we should either take them completely as error free or toss them too? Sorry but I can't agree on this point.

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"Capt Mills was even in the Rosebud fight as well, so was within a few miles of the LBH battlefield a week previous to it."

I know this little side conversation belongs somewhere else, but.......Mills history is very interesting, including some time in Arizona. He is well worth researching.

Tale care.

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Thanks.

Here's what I have found, something from an old travel guide and the approximate modern map. It would be fun to find out more about the cathedral and whether any of the expelled Jesuits from New Spain ended up here. If that could be established, this would be a good corroborative information that would solidify the premise that something really was buried in or around the Tumacacori mission.

View attachment 990851

View attachment 990853

The Jesuits have some history in the Canary's.
This is a decoration which adorns the doorway of one of their former facilities on Tenerife.
They must have considered the horse as important, since there is one at the base of this carving.
I have seen a photo of another as well, also above the doorway of a Jesuit residence.

 

[Springfield]

So we must either dismiss newspaper articles out of hand as utterly chock full of fiction, OR we must take the words exactly verbatim, allowing NO chance for garbling or misinterpretations? I must respectfully disagree, completely on this approach. In fact you can find errors in history books, and in the encyclopedia Britannica for that matter, so we should either take them completely as error free or toss them too? Sorry but I can't agree on this point.

You can't have it both ways, Oro. If you admit these stories may have some important messages in them, but are factually inaccurate/unverifiable, then, fine - put them in the 'rumors/hearsay' pile, but don't try to use them to support your rational arguments. However, if you can demonstrate these types of stories' veracity, then by all means, include them as 'proof'.

 

[UncleMatt]

I am curious, do any of you have any data on whether or not the Jesuits knew about telluride ores? I posted a question about this related to the Spanish in a separate thread, but also wanted to ask about the Jesuits, and whether or not they knew of tellurides, and how to process them.

 

[Oroblanco]

You can't have it both ways, Oro. If you admit these stories may have some important messages in them, but are factually inaccurate/unverifiable, then, fine - put them in the 'rumors/hearsay' pile, but don't try to use them to support your rational arguments. However, if you can demonstrate these types of stories' veracity, then by all means, include them as 'proof'.

You are clearly mistaken here. Newspaper articles are news reports - they often have errors in them, even factual errors, which does not make the WHOLE article false. I have posted an example several times before, in which a man died in a car accident and the newspaper transposed the distance the car was carried by the river before stopping, to the height of the embankment; however the rest of the facts in the article were correct. A reporter obtains his information usually by interviewing people, and in the early days before tape recorders, simply took notes. They then wrote up the article and an editor then worked it over before it was printed - allowing several layers of errors to creep in, and yet the basic points of the news article are completely sound. You are certainly free and welcome to put anything and everything into the "rumors/hearsay" pile and I wish you the best of luck, however your reasoning does not make sense to me. So I must remain (respectfully) in disagreement about newspaper articles as evidence.

I think our mutual amigo Gollum put it very well - we have legends/stories, with only scant documentation to provide solid proof. We can try to sift out the chaff and press on in the search, OR to simply refuse to accept ALL evidence and you may as well stay home and find a different hobby than treasure hunting for the vast majority of treasure hunting is exactly this kind of case, you have stories, rumors, hearsay, a few pieces of documents that may or may not support it, and you either get out and hunt based on your best evidence and interpretations, or find another hobby as you are set for disappointment if you expect to see sworn affidavits, assay reports, claim documents, photos and the like.

There are a few exceptions to what I just wrote, like the lost silver mine which is now known as the Silver King, or the Mojave mine, or Goler's gold, mines which were lost and only rumors/hearsay with little solid evidence but are now found, and a few examples which are very well documented like the lost Topaz mine of Devil's Head (Colorado) and yet remains lost. Would you like to claim that the newspaper articles about these examples, are just rumor/hearsay? Would you admit that an article on one of these, might have a few errors in it, and yet remain basically correct?

UncleMatt wrote

I am curious, do any of you have any data on whether or not the Jesuits knew about telluride ores? I posted a question about this related to the Spanish in a separate thread, but also wanted to ask about the Jesuits, and whether or not they knew of tellurides, and how to process them.

I sure do not know the answer to that one - the basic 'bible' on mining tech of the Jesuits day was the book by Agricola, and I don't think that book covers tellurides, in fact I think tellurides were not recognized until the mid-1800s but could be wrong. Sorry I can't help on that one.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

As you know, I don't know $#!t about rocks. On the other hand, I did take a quick peek at the index of my copy of Georgius Agricola's DE RE METALLICA, and found no mention of tellurides. Could they have been know by another name back in the mid-1500s

Take care,

Joe

 

[Springfield]

I am curious, do any of you have any data on whether or not the Jesuits knew about telluride ores? I posted a question about this related to the Spanish in a separate thread, but also wanted to ask about the Jesuits, and whether or not they knew of tellurides, and how to process them.

Seems to me these ores were scarce, tough to identify and even tougher to process than common sulfide ores because the target minerals (silver and gold) actually bonded with tellurium chemically to form new metallic compounds, which required more than simple roasting to recover. This didn't happen until the mid 1800's when flotation came into use - it was able to recover the microscopic precious metals.

I would say the Jesuits did not have experience with tellurides. I'm not sure the ores were even known then. The post-Agricola period miners could handle common sulfide ores by the patio process (easier, safer), or in some cases by roasting (more difficult, could be toxic), then by amalgamation or smelting.

Out of curiosity, if you can recover that sylvanite cache in the LaPlatas, are you going to attempt to process it yourself?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Joe is correct, they only had de rey Metalica to go on till the 1800's

 

[UncleMatt]

But of course I will attempt to process it myself! That's part of the fun in all this! :-D

Seems to me these ores were scarce, tough to identify and even tougher to process than common sulfide ores because the target minerals (silver and gold) actually bonded with tellurium chemically to form new metallic compounds, which required more than simple roasting to recover. This didn't happen until the mid 1800's when flotation came into use - it was able to recover the microscopic precious metals.

I would say the Jesuits did not have experience with tellurides. I'm not sure the ores were even known then. The post-Agricola period miners could handle common sulfide ores by the patio process (easier, safer), or in some cases by roasting (more difficult, could be toxic), then by amalgamation or smelting.

Out of curiosity, if you can recover that sylvanite cache in the LaPlatas, are you going to attempt to process it yourself?

 

[UncleMatt]

I appreciate your thought on this!

Roy,

As you know, I don't know $#!t about rocks. On the other hand, I did take a quick peek at the index of my copy of Georgius Agricola's DE RE METALLICA, and found no mention of tellurides. Could they have been know by another name back in the mid-1500s

Take care,

Joe

 

[UncleMatt]

So lets pose a hypothetical here: if the Spanish or Jesuits were mining for ore that had free gold to crush out of it, they would have ignored any telluride matrix they found the gold in, and would have discarded it as waste. Assuming, of course, they ever came across telluride ore with free gold in it. So that would mean any such mining sites would have tailings present that contained telluride ore that had been crushed to get the gold out of it? I'm thinking YES!

 

[Springfield]

So lets pose a hypothetical here: if the Spanish or Jesuits were mining for ore that had free gold to crush out of it, they would have ignored any telluride matrix they found the gold in, and would have discarded it as waste. Assuming, of course, they ever came across telluride ore with free gold in it. So that would mean any such mining sites would have tailings present that contained telluride ore that had been crushed to get the gold out of it? I'm thinking YES!

Theoretically, you're probably right - if the Spanish or Jesuits worked sulfides with tellurides in them, they probably didn't recover much, if any, of the precious metals. However, these ores were only found in a few places in CA and CO. So, as far as your CO efforts are concerned, I guess you'd need to find old Spanish workings in the telluride districts, which seems like a long shot. You can bet the old Anglo dumps have been sampled and possibly reworked decades ago.

 

[UncleMatt]

I'm working on that!

Theoretically, you're probably right - if the Spanish or Jesuits worked sulfides with tellurides in them, they probably didn't recover much, if any, of the precious metals. However, these ores were only found in a few places in CA and CO. So, as far as your CO efforts are concerned, I guess you'd need to find old Spanish workings in the telluride districts, which seems like a long shot. You can bet the old Anglo dumps have been sampled and possibly reworked decades ago.