JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[deducer]

deducer,


[How the First Jesuits Became Involved in Education By John W. O'Malley, S.J.

Like all traditions, the Jesuit tradition has, to be sure, its dark side. Its embodiment up to 1773 has been
criticized for being elitist, paternalistic, backward-looking, religiously bigoted. In its restored form from the
nineteenth century forward, it has been criticized for being reactionary and repressive, ghetto-enclosed.
Such criticisms are too persistent not to deserve attention. I merely call attention to them here so that you
know I am keenly aware of them. But this afternoon I do not stand before you to criticize the Jesuit tradition
or to praise it. I am here to sketch with very broad strokes how it began, what it was trying to accomplish,
and how it developed especially in the foundational years. There will perforce be a certain amount of overlap
with my two presentations because there is no way of talking about how the Jesuits got involved in education
without dealing with the humanistic tradition, the subject of my other contribution.]

http://www.bc.edu/content/dam/files/top/church21/pdf/HowtheFirstJesuitsBecameInvolvedinEducation.pdf

Joe Ribaudo

No offense but that's a pretty lukewarm acknowledgement. Is he "keenly aware" of the criticism, or of the dark side of Jesuit history?

The Jesuits have been criticized for far more serious crimes than what he listed- active intrigue in state matters, political interference, fomenting revolutions, inciting violence, and regicide (the Gunpowder Plot for instance).

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Deducer, my i suggest that that they were the strongest supporters of the ""INQUISITION"" ? Perfectly correct in those days, but not today, however many a very lucrative confiscation went to the Jesuits.

Jose keeping his toes way away from the fire.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[deducer]

Deducer, my i suggest that that they were the strongest supporters of the ""INQUISITION"" ? Perfectly correct in those days, but not today, however many a very lucrative confiscation went to the Jesuits.

Jose keeping his toes way away from the fire.

Don Jose de La Mancha

IMO, they were the epitome of the inquisitions.

 

[Oroblanco]

deducer,


[How the First Jesuits Became Involved in Education By John W. O'Malley, S.J.

Like all traditions, the Jesuit tradition has, to be sure, its dark side. Its embodiment up to 1773 has been
criticized for being elitist, paternalistic, backward-looking, religiously bigoted. In its restored form from the
nineteenth century forward, it has been criticized for being reactionary and repressive, ghetto-enclosed.
Such criticisms are too persistent not to deserve attention. I merely call attention to them here so that you
know I am keenly aware of them. But this afternoon I do not stand before you to criticize the Jesuit tradition
or to praise it. I am here to sketch with very broad strokes how it began, what it was trying to accomplish,
and how it developed especially in the foundational years. There will perforce be a certain amount of overlap
with my two presentations because there is no way of talking about how the Jesuits got involved in education
without dealing with the humanistic tradition, the subject of my other contribution.]

http://www.bc.edu/content/dam/files/top/church21/pdf/HowtheFirstJesuitsBecameInvolvedinEducation.pdf

Joe Ribaudo

I have to agree with Deducer here amigo, that is hardly even lukewarm acknowledgement. Look at the way it is phrased:

Like all traditions, the Jesuit tradition has, to be sure, its dark side. Its embodiment up to 1773 has been criticized for being elitist, paternalistic, backward-looking, religiously bigoted. In its restored form from the
nineteenth century forward, it has been criticized for being reactionary and repressive, ghetto-enclosed. Such criticisms are too persistent not to deserve attention.

Not one word so far, admits to ANY kind of wrong on the part OF the Jesuit Order, just that they were "criticized"!

Next, his words in reference to these "criticisms":

I merely call attention to them here so that you

know I am keenly aware of them. But this afternoon I do not stand before you to criticize the Jesuit tradition or to praise it. I am here to sketch with very broad strokes how it began, what it was trying to accomplish, and how it developed especially in the foundational years.

There is NO confession there that I can see to any kind of crime, wrongdoing or even error. Just that he will sketch in very broad strokes. Heck a criminal defense lawyer would approve of that kind of phrasing. Do you see this as an even-handed, unbiased approach on the part of father O'Malley? Look at how he answered your inquiry to Jesuit mining in the southwest - "its possible" - even though we KNOW they were mining, and can cite a Catholic study to back it up, he will only grant that it is in the realm of possibility, and that only in a private communication NOT a published work!

Self-examination and criticism is a healthy sign in ANY organization, to root out flaws and errors and even criminal behavior. This is something we do not see in the Society of Jesus, rather it is self-praise and glossing over those 'dark' pages. I still remain unconvinced of any Jesuit having composed any history of their Order without strong pro-Jesuit bias. No offense to your friend father O'Malley, I am sure he is a pre-eminent historian on the Jesuits, however even were he to attack the history of his own Order vigorously, we must needs keep in mind that he IS a Jesuit, and how this may affect his telling of events.

Thank you for posting that extract however, I do appreciate it and stick by my warning to caveat emptor to anyone reading any Jesuit authored history, and the same warning for the anti-Jesuit books. An historian should write history as it is and was, warts and all, not putting any "spin" on it, which is rare to find.

Good luck and good hunting amigos I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

OK, bring me up to speed on this one.

The Jesuits I knew ( funny thing they still mail me at least monthly after all these decades) were short on funds.

Seriously short. It was all they could do to take care of themselves.

Are there really treasures? If so, what are they?

There was one guy I considered a treasure, his thing was piano wire while on sabbatical.

 

[Springfield]

OK, bring me up to speed on this one....

This thread has tediously, and effectively, established that the SJ has a history of cynically using the guise of their christian calling to methodically exploit and intimidate their flocks to increase their material wealth and temporal power here on earth. Wolves in sheeps' clothing. Part of the allegations against them has to do with their willingness to enslave their captive natives in the New World in mining operations in an effort to pile up gold and silver for their own use. These charges have of course been vehemently denied by their apologists, but are fairly evident to levelheaded observers.

Now, to the treasures. I've tried, unsuccessfully, to limit the discussion to North America (where most of the forum's readers' interests lie) - assuming that SJ caches allegedly uncovered in the Phillipnes or Bolivia, while damning evidence, do not confirm the North American rumors. And those rumors? You can find all the wild stories you need to fire your imagination in numerous treasure hunting magazines, newspaper articles, mysterious documents, maps, confessions of 'famous treasure hunters', internet chat, etc. If you're the type that believes what you read from these types of sources, then you're good to go - good luck.

To be fair, Oro has repeatedly pointed out a handful of Arizona mines that various folks have alleged to be 'Jesuit' - one or two that you might call 'modest'. After all, the rat Jesuits would have worked a precious metal deposit if they had found one, knowing their history. They poked around a bit, but they just didn't find much - not nearly as much as they would have in Mexico, say. Be that as it may, nobody has established accepted links to the 'fabulous hoards' in Arizona that the pulp writers have hawked. Believe what you want.

My unwarranted personal opinion is that the SJ was hot to get to North America because they had information about already existing major caches here dating from Pre-Columbian times, and may well have located one of them in central Arizona, and maybe others elsewhere. These other popular treasure rumors are just smoke, IMO. Of course I could be wrong and will readily admit so when anything beyond unsubstantiated hearsay and innuendo is offered. You have to remain flexible - ridid, unproven opinions threaten to keep you in circular arguments. Know when to cut your losses and move on.

 

[cactusjumper]

This thread has tediously, and effectively, established that the SJ has a history of cynically using the guise of their christian calling to methodically exploit and intimidate their flocks to increase their material wealth and temporal power here on earth. Wolves in sheeps' clothing. Part of the allegations against them has to do with their willingness to enslave their captive natives in the New World in mining operations in an effort to pile up gold and silver for their own use. These charges have of course been vehemently denied by their apologists, but are fairly evident to levelheaded observers.

Now, to the treasures. I've tried, unsuccessfully, to limit the discussion to North America (where most of the forum's readers' interests lie) - assuming that SJ caches allegedly uncovered in the Phillipnes or Bolivia, while damning evidence, do not confirm the North American rumors. And those rumors? You can find all the wild stories you need to fire your imagination in numerous treasure hunting magazines, newspaper articles, mysterious documents, maps, confessions of 'famous treasure hunters', internet chat, etc. If you're the type that believes what you read from these types of sources, then you're good to go - good luck.

To be fair, Oro has repeatedly pointed out a handful of Arizona mines that various folks have alleged to be 'Jesuit' - one or two that you might call 'modest'. After all, the rat Jesuits would have worked a precious metal deposit if they had found one, knowing their history. They poked around a bit, but they just didn't find much - not nearly as much as they would have in Mexico, say. Be that as it may, nobody has established accepted links to the 'fabulous hoards' in Arizona that the pulp writers have hawked. Believe what you want.

My unwarranted personal opinion is that the SJ was hot to get to North America because they had information about already existing major caches here dating from Pre-Columbian times, and may well have located one of them in central Arizona, and maybe others elsewhere. These other popular treasure rumors are just smoke, IMO. Of course I could be wrong and will readily admit so when anything beyond unsubstantiated hearsay and innuendo is offered. You have to remain flexible - ridid, unproven opinions threaten to keep you in circular arguments. Know when to cut your losses and move on.

Springfield,

Agreed. Being the least knowledgeable person here on the actions of the Jesuits in Mexico.....I will move on.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Thanks much Springfield. I would guess that anything they had was covering operating expenses. Especially if they were not sinister, they would have used it for their cause of converting. What logic would be behind saving it for later? No matter what their intention they would want to put wealth to work for it. It seems there is no treasure to be found here either. Can anybody steer me to treasure that actually exists?

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Springfield,

Agreed. Being the least knowledgeable person here on the actions of the Jesuits in Mexico.....I will move on.

Who said that you were "least knowledgeable"? I see no reason for you to leave this discussion.

ConceptualizedNetherlandr wrote:

Can anybody steer me to treasure that actually exists?

Perhaps some other avocation might be more suited to you? This thread is a debate over whether the legends of Jesuit treasures are real or not, plenty of evidence both pro and con has been posted if you wish to read it in the past several years of posts, some 118 pages plus still more in the thread on the Molina documents. In fact this part of the forum is "Treasure Legends" not "treasure, here it is just go pick it up". That kind of treasure is usually already dug up and gone, like the Atocha. From what I have seen of your approach to this topic, it looks like treasure hunting might not be your bag; you seem to want a sure thing which unfortunately there is no such thing in treasure hunting. Of course if you do not search, you very definitely will never find anything either.

Springfield's post describes the debate very well - there are Jesuit mines and there is missing treasure, like the estimated $20,000 worth of silver seen at San Xavier del Bac mission, which is missing today. Supposedly it was hidden in the silver mine in the area known as La Esmerelda, however no one knows where the mine is either. This is the kind of treasure we are debating. Jesuits must take a vow of PERSONAL POVERTY so will always be short of money - personally. Their Order however has no such vow, and is infamous for amassing vast properties and treasure, which is why the Spanish authorities sought for them on their expulsion of the Jesuits from all Spanish territories which includes Mexico and half of Arizona. The mines they operated are not on the order of giant operations either, they are usually fairly small, but often had very rich ore as seen at the Wandering Jew or Salero. How to define this size of a mine, and the output of such a mine, whether it is worth your time and effort to try to locate it is up to you personally to decide. Some would call it modest or even negligible, and to others it is certainly a respectable size treasure and well worth pursuing. If say 20,000 ounces of silver is not enough to be worth your time then by all means put your efforts into something else, no one will try to stop you and I would wish you good luck in your endeavors. If you think a treasure of that size is worth your time then we are happy to discuss what we know, up to a point. All treasure hunters have some information that they do not share freely.

In my opinion there is no more rewarding avocation than treasure hunting, the experiences are a treasure which cannot be priced in dollars, and for some of us has also been rewarding financially. It is not for everyone however.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope that you Joe will reconsider your post, perhaps you had not had enough of your excellent coffee when that post was made. I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[deducer]

I think that the subject of this thread is whether or not Jesuit treasures exist, in that did the Jesuits hoard or otherwise had what we today call treasure?

The answer is a resounding yes.

It was never a condition of this thread that the subject be concerned with only the Jesuits in Mexico or the Southwest.

 

[releventchair]

Springfield,

Agreed. Being the least knowledgeable person here on the actions of the Jesuits in Mexico.....I will move on.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

Respectfully Joe you are far behind me in line on that one! I,m #1, I,m #1. l.o.l..

 

[releventchair]

Thanks much Springfield. I would guess that anything they had was covering operating expenses. Especially if they were not sinister, they would have used it for their cause of converting. What logic would be behind saving it for later? No matter what their intention they would want to put wealth to work for it. It seems there is no treasure to be found here either. Can anybody steer me to treasure that actually exists?

Not an insult but why would someone steer you to treasure ,what ever treasure means to you? For your thanks?What is treasure? A single saw log of birds eye maple will draw a swarm of bidders and a pretty good chunk of money beyond the commoners reach. Here in the great lakes recovery of sunken pine logs from the lumbering era have revealed a dense grain from growing in old growth forests. In addition they have had a very long soak. The combination of the two bring outstanding sums from violin makers,treasure? I believe so. I don,t sell morel mushrooms but they reach 40 dollars a pound often enough here from buyers that resell them,. What if I found a chef? The time I picked twenty pounds in two days would have made them a treasure. Out west the at times prolific fire morels generate a near madness. Find it before you find it or your going to be chasing a goose. there is big value in goods including precious metals out there. No gimmies till you find what others have not.There are fortunes so close to so many who know about it that were recovery allowed it would do me no good to start the truck .Huge value. Know sites.(Pssst think Cuba.)Atocha was mentioned. All that money time and legal wrangling spent hunting all those years. Loss of life. Not for me. Treasure was not lost it was out of range of salvage divers after the wreck, diving fifty feet deep,(my goodness 50!) and not being able to open hatches once there. In my prime 25 foot was it and doing anything there besides turning around was not going to happen. But for one hunter who may be the top if such a title exists,the rediscovery and recovery were worth doing. because technology allowed it. But not without great sacrifice. The old saying" be careful what you look for you might find it" applies to treasure for sure but also to information on a lead that anyone else knows about. Time you catch that goose it may not be worth it. We share notes on legends in an attempt to flesh them out. Plenty of help if a treasure is located that it does not need to be posted.

 

[deducer]

deducer,

There is little doubt, in my mind, that you and I are totally unqualified to decide what the Jesuit agenda was in the New World. It also "doesn't follow" that savings souls was not their only agenda.

Not knowing the history of that era, makes understanding what took place very difficult. Right and wrong today was not so black and white in those times.

The Jesuit agenda in the New World appears fairly transparent from the below statements from Conflict in Colonial Sonora By David Yetmen, in that it mirrors very similar agendas elsewhere in the world which got them kicked out or expelled from quite a handful of countries:

 

[deducer]

Also, from History of the Jesuits by Theodor Griesinger:

 

[deducer]

This seems to have been standard practice all over Sonora.

From Sonora, it's Geographical Personality by Robert C. West:

 

[deducer]

From Mining and Engineering World Vol. 37 July 6-Dec. 28, 1912:

 

[releventchair]

The man is holding a fist full of trump cards!

 

[deducer]

From Why have you come here? Jesuits and the first Evangelization of Natives by Nicholas Cushner, professor of history, SUNY, New York:



From this and from the sources cited above, we get a very clear idea of the Jesuit agenda in the New World. They made themselves the very center of economic activity in Sonora, to the point where very little went on without their say. And what was at the center of economic activity there? Mining.

 

[somehiker]

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Lots of good info. And I am no sort of expert on Jesuit history. But ...

I still don't see this adding up to any indication of treasure to be had. Suppose they were able to skim enough off the natives labor to not only keep them alive and working, provide for the Jesuits and their mission activities, and still have something to squirrel away, it seems that was sent to the old world.

What expectation is there that something (large) was left here?

And like all other entities once in charge, they eventually met their decline/demise/reduction in power and scope, and that is always accompanied by monetary bleeding if not out right dissolution, liquidation or bankruptcy. At that time anything still had would have certainly been diminished.

They probably spent their fortunes.