JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Nah Concept my friend, probably Western Union-ed to Rome

Jose

 

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[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Nah Concept my friend, probably Western Union-ed to Rome

Jose

Lemmie guess, Irish Coffee

Check out the all American post, # 1776 - twas not my concept, our well referenced friend deducer gave that up.

 

[Oroblanco]

ConceptualizedNetherlandr - you keep posting statements as if you wish to know what treasure we are talking about. Here is an inventory of Tayopa, perhaps the most famous lost Jesuit mission and a whole group of mines, this list is what was being held at the mission as property of the Society of Jesus:

Four bells, the largest weighing 28 arrobas and 17 pounds on which where inscribed Tayopa. One bell inscribed TAYOPA. One bell inscribed REMEDIOS. Weight 11 arrobas and 10 pounds.One small bell inscribed PIEDAD. Weight 5 arrobas. These bells were cast in 1603 by the Right Reverend Father Ignacio Maria de Retana.


One high cross of carved silver from the Tayopa mine, weight 1 arroba, 15 pounds, with an attached crucifix of hammered gold from the Paramo placer.A pair of processional.candle holders and six bars of hammered silver, weighing 4 arrobas, 13 pounds from Santo Nino Mine.Four incensories of silver and gold plated, weighing 1 arroba, 3 pounds from the Cristo Mine. In a cut-stone box are stored jewellery. Box is buried in basement under room built of stone and mud, between the church and side of convent and fruit garden.


One large custody with silver bracket, weighing 1 arroba from Santo Nino Mine, with gold glimmer from placer El Paramo and four fine mounted stones from Remedios Mine.Two silver chalices from the Jesus Maria y Jose Mine, and twelve solid gold cups. Six gold plates made from the Jesus Maria y Jose Mine, and twelve solid gold cups. Six gold plates made from Cristo Mine and Purisima Mine, and two large communion plates of gold made from placer El Paramo.One shrine with four hammered silver columns weighing 4 arrobas from Senor de la Buena Muerto Mine.Sixty-five cargas [packloads] of silver packed in cow-hide bags, each containing 8 arrobas, 12 pounds. Eleven cargas of gold from four mines and placer El Paramo, each wrapped in cloth and cow-hide, with a total weight of 99 arrobas [2512 pounds].Also 183 arrobas of Castilla ore, and 65 arrobas first-class Castilla ore from El Paramo, with a know assay of 22 carats, clean and without mercury.


For the knowledge of our Vicar General, I have written this to inform our Superior.

This inventory, written by a Jesuit and sealed on 17 February, 1646, was found by Henry O. Flipper, the Spanish legal expert, surveyor and historian of mines and mining, in 1912.


This amounts to a very sizable treasure, and is not the only such inventory for a Jesuit mission; another document known as the Molina document has a list nearly as impressive, you can read it on another thread here if you are interested.


Cactusjumper - I found a site with transcriptions in German (and Latin, Spanish etc all mixed due to father Segesser mixing them in writing) of father Segesser's letters; I dutifully hunted up the relevant letter, only to find it is missing there as the transcripts are only those on microfilm; on checking back to the other source, it states :

On an attached sheet [?; not identifiable in the file, but here translated from the transcript in the Lucerne State Archive ]:
If the Juncker Brother has not yet sent the requested items, would you please add also: 6 scissors to
shear sheep, of which I have half a dozen. Item[Latin: also] good, strong, round and flat crow bars,
ca. half a dozen, of every kind, also smaller ones<snip>

<http://aclassen.faculty.arizona.edu/sites/aclassen.faculty.arizona.edu/files/Engl.trans__2.pdf


So the original is not available, all we have is a transcript. However the fact that the words for crowbar and chisel are VERY different may be worth pursuing further. If there are any other passages in Segesser's letters which you wish to see the original language used, that site is at:

Philipp Segesser: Transcription of Letters and English translation | Dr. Albrecht Classen


Great posts Deducer & Somehiker, thank you. I would go even farther to question the motives or agenda of the Jesuits, for while they were proud of the high numbers of conversions and baptisms as claimed in many of their documents, how many were true converts and became Christians, versus those whom were 'rice bowl converts' as the term was used to call the mass converts in India, people who came to be fed and would not come if not fed.
Oroblanco

 

[deducer]

Philipp Segesser: Transcription of Letters and English translation | Dr. Albrecht Classen


Great posts Deducer & Somehiker, thank you. I would go even farther to question the motives or agenda of the Jesuits, for while they were proud of the high numbers of conversions and baptisms as claimed in many of their documents, how many were true converts and became Christians, versus those whom were 'rice bowl converts' as the term was used to call the mass converts in India, people who came to be fed and would not come if not fed.
Oroblanco

Interesting that you should bring up the term, "rice bowl converts."

In those transcripts you mentioned is a passage from one of Segesser's letters that is relevant:



The fact that he says the "same occurs in all missions" is, IMO, very revealing as to gauging exactly what effect conversions had on the Indian population.

 

[gollum]

Conceptualized,

Here is a quote from the journals of Father Johan Nentvig SJ in "Rudo Ensayo"as to why the Jesuits wanted a LOT of gold and silver in their Churches:

Although in these miserable times opposing opinions have arisen among critics, some praising and others condemning the care and expense of adorning and maintaining the temples with all possible dignity and decency for the reverence due to the Supreme Maker of all creation, I will not enter into a dispute over the subject, but I believe in what Our Mother, the Holy Roman Catholic Church, has always praised, approved, practised, and in a certain fashion glorified in the lives of its Saints. One learns from the lessons of St Ignatius of Loyola, father and founder of the Society of Jesus, when he says in praise of that Holy Patriarch, “Templorum nitor, catechismi traditio, concionum ac Sacramentorum frequentia ab ipso incrementum accepere.”I shall say that my heart rejoices with delight, and I feel more inclined to worship and praise Our Lord when I enter any well adorned church. I must let the admiration argument prevail, a maiori ad minorem [from the highest to the lowest], for if we who are more rational than the Indians find incentive and devotion in temples that outshine others by their glowing adornments and will choose those in preference to the slovenly ones for Mass, Sermon, Confession, and Communion, how much more must the Indians be in need of such stimuli when nothing of what they hear takes hold upon them unless it enters through their eyes with some sort of demonstration of the Supreme Creator about whom the preacher is speaking? So, when they see that the house of God is well ordered, clean, and beautifully adorned, they perceive at once the magnificence of its Owner and Ruler. I praise the missionaries of Sonora for imitating their great Father St. Ignatius.

All the churches have side altars, appropriate ornaments, and chalices of silver and in three instances of gold. There are other sacred vessels such as ciboriums, monstrances, large and small candlesticks and crosses, and nearly all churches have silver statues of the Virgin, organs, bassoons, oboes, and bells, not only at the principal missions but at the dependent ones as well. There are also choruses of Indian singers, and masses are celebrated nearly every Sunday, on days of obligation and on the principal festival days with vespers the evening before when required. And there are processions and other ceremonies of the Holy Church which are accomplished with all possible dignity in order to present a visual display of the majesty of our Holy Religion to the neophytes so that they may remain impressed with its splendor and be attracted to it. Their disposition piae affectionis is to believe through their eyes rather than their ears.

Best - Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

ConceptualizedNetherlandr -
Here is a translation of the Molina document with its treasure listed:

Directions - year 1598 to 1658 - these Directions pertain to Tumacácori: The Mine of Tumacacori called the Virgen of Guadalupe. It is a league and a half, beginning at the main door of the temple on the south. From the Waters of San Ramón measured to the left (it is) 1800 rods to the north. Some 1200 rods before reaching the mine is a black rock marked with a chisel with these marks on the bottom of the rock . 1200 rods from the cross is the treasure. This is what the writing means. Some 20 rods in front of the rock is a small monument. In a southwest direction from the mine are two rock outcroppings that were knocked down over the mine without more jarring than the placement of gunpowder in the cracks of the rocks, leaving the track obliterated forever. Going over the rocks no one would know where this place is. Inside the mine is a room that measures 50 rods square and in this place is the treasure of our missions. In the middle of the room is the mouth of the mine, the treasure being (both) inside and outside of it: There are 2650 loads of sealed silver and 905 of gold, and there are 40 million in (unsealed) silver. The gold was brought from the Sierra de Guachapa in the vicinity of Tubac: continue forward in the same southerly direction.
Some three leagues from the mine of Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe what is called "Pass of the Janos."
In a direction to the south from here, an arroyo starts that empties into the Santa Cruz River. The mine is to the left of the pass.
Below the pass are 12 ore crushers and 12 smelters. The mine has one tunnel of 300 rods in length and the tunnel has the name of La Purísima Concepción engraved on it with a chisel. The tunnel runs north and at 20 rods a small tunnel of one hundred rods intersects it, running west. The ore is yellow - ore that is half silver and a fifth part gold. There are some slag pits fifty rods from the door of the mine going north. They found chunks of pure silver weighing from one pound to 5 arrobas (125 pounds). This mine is sealed by a copper door that has some enormous handles.
This copper was brought from the Sierra de Guachapa in the vicinity of Tubac and smelted in Tuma-cácori, and the door was carried to the mine on a sledge by oxen. The year 1658. They worked and covered it in 1658 as recorded in the book of works of the mission.
It is three leagues from the mine of La Purísima Concepción to the mine of Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe. About halfway down the road in the same direction is what is called The Mine of the Opatas. This mine has one tunnel of four hundred rods and running south along the same course. The ore is mixed with pebbles and after three hundred rods is cut off by a trench. A very large tableland runs from the mouth of the mine toward the setting sun. On its west side is a very large canyon ending on the south side. It has a bore mark that is a half-rod deep. Standing on the south side, you can see the mark on the other side of the canyon. Going one league north from this mark is the Mine of the Opatas of Tumacácori. This is the mark. To the west on the other side of the sierra is the mine of Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe. It is marked by Father S--- R--- on the 12th of the month of December in 1518. This mine was found by a <snip>

borrowed from http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/t...ister-micaela-molina-document.html#post216651


The thread is to debate whether these are mere fictions or real, there is much more info here on the forum and elsewhere on the net; I hope this helps answer your curiosity.


Thanks Mike great post.
Oroblanco

 

[deducer]

A further understanding of just how well-adorned those churches were, can be found in an article entitled At the center on the frontier: the Jesuit Tarahumara missons of New Spain by Clara Bargellini in Time and Place: The geohistory of art edited by Thomas DaCosta Kaufmann and Elizabeth Pilliod. First, the following statement reinforces the concept of the Jesuit mission serving as a center of economic activity:

Even superficial knowledge of the Jesuits, their corporate culture, and their history in New Spain would lead one to expect that their missions would be well provided for.

This article describes just how elaborate the support system for the missions were, to the extent that paintings, reliquaries, and other objects (relics, books, sculptures, bronzes, ivory figures, even Chinese vases) were imported from Europe to furnish the Churches of the frontier.

Not only did the missions import quite a bit, but most of them are described as having unusual amounts and variety of tools which allowed "craft and artistic activity."

For example, Norogachi had exceptionally well appointed carpentry, stone cutting, and blacksmith shops at the time of the expulsion in 1767.

Also, an interesting statement:

The central place of the missions in the Jesuits' conception of themselves, both as a group and as individuals during the colonial period, made the missions essential. Thus the missionaries emphasized their difficulties and isolation, their position at 'la frontera de la gentilidad,' as they often put it.....[T]he Jesuits continued to insist upon the hardships because they wanted to keep the missions, and to do that the missions had to be considered indispensable by the rest of society. Once there were no more gentile natives to baptize and instruct, the missions lost their explicit reason for existing and would be secularized...

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

At first glance I'll focus on tech. "measures 50 rods square " are these like surveyor rods of modern times? 16.5 feet? That is a big room. Perhaps that is where the blocks for the pyramids came from?

 

[Oroblanco]

At first glance I'll focus on tech. "measures 50 rods square " are these like surveyor rods of modern times? 16.5 feet? That is a big room. Perhaps that is where the blocks for the pyramids came from?

Yes that would be a very big room inside of a mine, if that were an accurate translation. What I posted is borrowed from the thread on the Molina document, which is in Spanish, not English, and in that sentence in Spanish there is no word there for "rod"; it has an abbreviation for the Spanish measurement of Vara, not rod or any equivalent. The Spanish Vara had a variety of different values for different Spanish provinces and times, ranging from 30 inches to 33.5 inches. Which still makes for a nice sized room, being nearly 150 feet square, but not the fifty RODS square. By the way that is not my translation of the original Spanish, and for that matter the Molina document is a copy of an original in an archive so may have been in Latin for all we know.

Perhaps it is where the blocks for the pyramids came from - can you expound on this please? Do you refer to Egyptian, Aztec, Mayan, Chinese or Nubian pyramids? Thank you in advance.

 

[Springfield]

At first glance I'll focus on tech. "measures 50 rods square " are these like surveyor rods of modern times? 16.5 feet? That is a big room. Perhaps that is where the blocks for the pyramids came from?

Be careful before you spend too much energy on the 'Molina Document'. This story, like many 'lost mine/hidden treasure' legends, seems to have surfaced in the interesting 1930's period - likely from the mind of treasure writer John Mitchell. IMHO, this document is most likely either a complete fabrication or a coded message relating to a treasure cache of more modern origins. Believe what you will.

 

[deducer]

Not exactly relevant, but there is something in this article that probably will raise some eyebrows:

X still Marks Sunken Spot and Gold Awaits

But as news of the sensational find went public, the group’s investors were not the only ones paying attention. Claims to the fortune came from an order of Catholic monks, a Texas oil millionaire, and Columbia University, where an oceanographer had provided Mr. Thompson with sonar imagery of what turned out to be the shipwreck. And scores of insurance companies insisted that the treasure was rightfully theirs because of claims paid more than a century earlier.

Probably rules out the Jesuits, at least directly, but not the Franciscans as they were prolific in California, and IIRC they are considered monks.

Now why should an order of Catholic monks file claim to a few gold bars?

Be really interesting to find out what the argument (or evidence) is, behind their claim.

 

[gollum]

Spring,

Definitely was not made up by Mitchell. He made up the whole find of the Pure Conception and the story you read in Treasure Mags. He admitted as much to Father Polzer SJ in a letter that I have a copy of.

I have a very interesting story in a magazine from the early 1970s. The guy says that there was a gentleman in Southern Az. that was selling copies of his original treasure letter. He would show it to a prospective buyer. Once the buyer was satisfied that the letter was authentic, he would pay the man$50 (I think). The man would read the letter aloud to his daughter that would write down everything the man read. I think that Mitchell was one of the older buyers of a copy of that letter. That would explain the modern words, etc, etc, etc. The article goes on to say that this man (article writer) noticed many inconsistencies between what the man said and what his daughter wrote. The writer asked and was allowed to write his own copy of the letter. He says that it is very different from Mitchell's Letter.

Maybe that is why nobody has found anything based on the KNOWN Molina Document.

Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Geeze Gully, not even with my translation ??

Don Jose d eLa Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Certainly there are treasure maps, why just last night In the movie, :The Count Of Monte Christo" our hero found a huge treasure of jewels and gold,with a treasure map given to him by a Priest

So who can doubt that they exist >>!


Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Gullium, there were two serious mistakes in the published translarion that I ponted out,

dija fimd anything?


Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Not exactly relevant, but there is something in this article that probably will raise some eyebrows:

X still Marks Sunken Spot and Gold Awaits



Probably rules out the Jesuits, at least directly, but not the Franciscans as they were prolific in California, and IIRC they are considered monks.

Now why should an order of Catholic monks file claim to a few gold bars?

Be really interesting to find out what the argument (or evidence) is, behind their claim.

I don't think we can rule out the Jesuits as the Order claiming some of that treasure; there is evidence that they had their own ship which travelled with the Manila galleons, carrying their trade goods/treasures right alongside the galleon, and doing a thriving business in Baja for a long time. See the report of captain Anson, who visited their missions around 1740 (could be 1730 I am writing from memory, so corrections are welcome). Even if it is the Franciscans, it helps support the accusation that they were also mining gold and silver in California for years, keeping it secret from the Spanish and later Mexican authorities deliberately to prevent a rush of colonists.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, thank you for that interesting link Deducer.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Bit of useless trivia, but there was a Captain Anson.....Mills, in Yellowstone at the time of the Custer Massacre.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Corporate Investigations]

Hello Gentlemen

Perhaps The story in the newspaper Los Angeles Herald 27th September 1891 telling of alleged treasure found at the mission and of the mine that was not found and the map given to a Judge Barnes may be of interest?



Amy

 

[deducer]

I don't think we can rule out the Jesuits as the Order claiming some of that treasure; there is evidence that they had their own ship which travelled with the Manila galleons, carrying their trade goods/treasures right alongside the galleon, and doing a thriving business in Baja for a long time. See the report of captain Anson, who visited their missions around 1740 (could be 1730 I am writing from memory, so corrections are welcome). Even if it is the Franciscans, it helps support the accusation that they were also mining gold and silver in California for years, keeping it secret from the Spanish and later Mexican authorities deliberately to prevent a rush of colonists.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, thank you for that interesting link Deducer.
Oroblanco

I suppose it's possible. The reason I had ruled them out, at least directly, is because the ship went down in 1857. I am not sure that post-suppression, (after 1814) there is any record of Jesuits, particularly in America, "picking up right where they left off." Of course I stand to be corrected if I am shown otherwise.

 

[deducer]

Hello Gentlemen

Perhaps The story in the newspaper Los Angeles Herald 27th September 1891 telling of alleged treasure found at the mission and of the mine that was not found and the map given to a Judge Barnes may be of interest?
Amy

It certainly is interesting. I tried to look up Mercedes, Spain to see if there is, or was a Jesuit church there, but there is no town of that name that exists in Spain today. Probably has changed to another name.